Marijuana Possession

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Unregistered said:
I agree that marijuana is not something a pilot should be using while he/she intends to fly an aircraft. I am not arguing that. I am not arguing weather or not marijuana is healthy or not... I already formed my opinion on that and believe alcohol and tobacco are both worse than marijuana.
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Alcohol usage results in neurotoxicity at much lower levels than THC (and is cleared much more quickly form the bloodstream), and nicotine does not have documented effects on judgement.

Unregistered said:
This opinion is based on facts, and facts that are readily available from internet researched from non-biased sources. People like you think that marijuana kills brain cells. That is false. The only study in which it was shown to kill brain cells was when a monkey was "suffocated" by smoking something like the equivalent of 60 joints simultaneously.
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Don't believe everything you read on the internet. Put THC on neurons in culture at physiological levels and they alter their morphology and die if you do it long enough. Give it to a rodent and you see apoptosis in the hippocampus. Give it to a human and after awhile they go stupid. Given your response I assume you're a long-term user. Please don't argue with me on this, I've done two of the three.

Unregistered said:
Why is it that once the effects of alcohol ware off after 8 hours and BAC below .04 it is legal to fly an aircraft, but the same is not true for marijuana? I know the reason is because it is simply illegal in the feds eyes.
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Yup. But part and parcel of being an Airman is obeying the rules set forth by the FAA, whether or not you personally agree with their wisdom.

Unregistered said:
Many experts in the field claim marijuana will be legalized federally within 20 years. I am confused as to why many others on this board are extremely against the use of marijuana. When marijuana is legalized federally, would you guys not think it would be okay to use it, even if you are a pilot, as long as you are not under the influence of it WHILE under the responsibilities of a pilot? If possible, please cite reputable sources in your response as to why you have the opinion you do.
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I (and I suspect others) am "against" the use of marijuana only because it's illegal. However, your experts have been smoking the stuff way too long. We spent 50 billion dollars last year on drug interdiction, and the amount is likely to grow. However, it isn't a political issue, even though the government is up to its eyeballs in hock. You couldn't even legalize it in California, which is far more liberal on this issue than any other state in the Union. With that kind of money thrown around, you can bet there's a constituency that will lube Congress to keep the spigot open. And we Americans like our law and order. [/QUOTE]
 
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steingar said:
THC, the active neurotropic ingredient of marijuana, is a proven neurotoxic agent that causes neuronal cell death and memory loss.
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Can you point me to a reliable reference for this statement, or that the that the toxicity exceeds that of alcohol?

It would be useful for a long-running argument I've been having with a family member.
 
Unregistered said:
And please keep in mind this is in comparison to ALCOHOL, which is already legal in the FAA's eye.
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One advantage of alcohol is that it can be easily and accurately measured. A good breathalyzer only costs a couple hundred bucks and the test can be confirmed with a very accurate blood test. Timed serial blood tests can be used to confirm a person's BAC at the time of the prior breathalyzer test. Until somebody invents a stoned-o-meter there is not a practical way to measure the degree of marijuana intoxication.
 
EdFred said:
If I use what is considered an illegal drug in the US, while I am in a country that considers the use of that drug legal do I have to check yes?
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My opinion only (worth what you paid for it) - the way I would interpret this is that if the privilege you are applying for (medical clearance to fly an aircraft in this case) is to be exercised in the United States, then the standards that apply are the ones in effect in the area in which you wish to exercise that privilege (the US in this case) and you would have to check YES since those standards govern the activity of interest. The same would apply for an athlete pumping up on steroids because it's not illegal in outer Mogadishu (pick your location) - that does not give him free clearance to participate in sanctioned US/IOC sporting events.

Similar scenario - an employee of a company gets drug-tested as part of routine job activity, and shows positive. He claims he was in a location where it was legal at the time he used it, and so it shouldn't count. Company regulations say ANY use within the period of time that the test would show a result is a terminal offense, and the employee is fired. Employee sues for wrongful termination and loses the case. I watched that one happen a couple years ago.

I don't see that the FAA would treat it any differently.
 
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Steve Foley said:
Can you point me to a reliable reference for this statement, or that the that the toxicity exceeds that of alcohol?

It would be useful for a long-running argument I've been having with a family member.
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http://www.encognitive.com/node/1230

The research is published today in the journal Archives of General Psychiatry. The study also found that all users are at risk, and the more you smoke, the more your brain shrinks. Doctors have known for years there is nothing "soft" about the drug cannabis. Professor Jon Currie is the director of addiction medicine at St Vincent's Hospital in Melbourne.



"This is a very exciting study because it proves for the first time what we have been really worried out. That brain problems are real and that people who smoke cannabis over a long term do get problems." he said.
The study conducted at the University of Melbourne took MRI pictures of the brains of 15 men who had smoked more than five joints daily for more than 10 years.



It found the parts of their brains that regulate memory and emotion, the hippocampus and the amygdala, were significantly smaller than those of non-users.



The abnormalities were equivalent to those caused by a mild traumatic brain injury or premature ageing.
Researchers found the men aged in their late-30s had the memory function of men in their mid-50s.
The amount of damage corresponded directly to the amount of cannabis smoked.
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Gary F said:
One advantage of alcohol is that it can be easily and accurately measured. A good breathalyzer only costs a couple hundred bucks and the test can be confirmed with a very accurate blood test. Timed serial blood tests can be used to confirm a person's BAC at the time of the prior breathalyzer test. Until somebody invents a stoned-o-meter there is not a practical way to measure the degree of marijuana intoxication.
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I would love to see the ratings on a "stonometer!" Would they be like:

1 whoa.
2 dude!
3 totally full-on!
3 ga-schnozzled!
 
Unregistered said:
comparingdangers.png
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Interesting - source? (and please let it not be High Times)
 
airguy said:
My opinion only (worth what you paid for it) - the way I would interpret this is that if the privilege you are applying for (medical clearance to fly an aircraft in this case) is to be exercised in the United States, then the standards that apply are the ones in effect in the area in which you wish to exercise that privilege (the US in this case) and you would have to check YES since those standards govern the activity of interest. The same would apply for an athlete pumping up on steroids because it's not illegal in outer Mogadishu (pick your location) - that does not give him free clearance to participate in sanctioned US/IOC sporting events.

Similar scenario - an employee of a company gets drug-tested as part of routine job activity, and shows positive. He claims he was in a location where it was legal at the time he used it, and so it shouldn't count. Company regulations say ANY use within the period of time that the test would show a result is a terminal offense, and the employee is fired. Employee sues for wrongful termination and loses the case. I watched that one happen a couple years ago.

I don't see that the FAA would treat it any differently.
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Some guy is taking his former employer (WalMart?) to court because he failed a **** test for marijuana. He claims that this violates the Americans with Disabilities Act as he had a medical marijuana card at the time.
 
Gary F said:
One advantage of alcohol is that it can be easily and accurately measured. A good breathalyzer only costs a couple hundred bucks and the test can be confirmed with a very accurate blood test. Timed serial blood tests can be used to confirm a person's BAC at the time of the prior breathalyzer test. Until somebody invents a stoned-o-meter there is not a practical way to measure the degree of marijuana intoxication.
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The other issue involves the metabolism of THC. It gets stored in fat cells and is present in your body long after you have smoked it. I've not looked at any research that measures the residual effect of the stored THC as it finally is eliminated, but as far as "wearing off," it takes weeks to months with THC.

The interesting thing to me is the large number of FORMER heavy marijuana smokers who make no secret of the fact that it was a mistake. Even if your health emerges relatively unscathed -- of which I'm skeptical -- the bigger issue to me is the way I've seen it destroy ambition, curiosity, initiative and creativity. And, to quote one of my favorite artists, "and then one day you find 10 years have got behind you. No one told you when to run. You missed the starting gun."
 
Steve Foley said:
Can you point me to a reliable reference for this statement, or that the that the toxicity exceeds that of alcohol?

It would be useful for a long-running argument I've been having with a family member.
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I can't google-fu anything with a direct comparison between booze and pot on the net, except fairly partisan rants on the web. A quick pubmed search reveals this and this. A nice paper with lots of dry description of how Cannabinoids work is here.
 
spiderweb said:
YES! Read the DSM! From DSM IV there ACTUALLY is "Caffeine Intoxication."

It's mostly for insurance coding . . . .
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I wrote "not as usual doses". Years ago it was not uncommon for people to get overdosed with the medication aminophylline, with effects similar to very high doses of caffeine. This would not be fun. I forgot that kids are drinking stuff with high doses of added caffeine. So why would anybody want to be like Cornholio?
It's a bad day if I am looking up something in the DSM.
 
Dr. Bruce,

I'm not vacating my position on anything. I came here ASKING a question. I received an answer and than asked another question to compare alcohol to marijuana. I have had no answer to that question and have provided my opinion.

I am not stubborn old man, and I am willing to change my position on the subject if someone can provide a valid argument with facts... I've already shown that.
 
Unregistered said:
Dr. Bruce,

I'm not vacating my position on anything. I came here ASKING a question. I received an answer and than asked another question to compare alcohol to marijuana. I have had no answer to that question and have provided my opinion.

I am not stubborn old man, and I am willing to change my position on the subject if someone can provide a valid argument with facts... I've already shown that.
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Try looking up the citations I referenced.
 
Gary F said:
Some guy is taking his former employer (WalMart?) to court because he failed a **** test for marijuana. He claims that this violates the Americans with Disabilities Act as he had a medical marijuana card at the time.
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Nope - the employer still has the legal right to require that employees NOT be user of illegal drugs. Marijuana is still illegal according to the FEDS, regardless of what the California potheads say.
 
airguy said:
Nope - the employer still has the legal right to require that employees NOT be user of illegal drugs. Marijuana is still illegal according to the FEDS, regardless of what the California potheads say.
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He apparently convinced an attorney to take his case. I am not sure that federal law supersedes state law here and there is a disability issue. The ADA has been used to justify all sorts of workplace BS. Any lawyer out there willing to comment?
 
Unregistered said:
Dr. Bruce,

I'm not vacating my position on anything. I came here ASKING a question. I received an answer and than asked another question to compare alcohol to marijuana. I have had no answer to that question and have provided my opinion.

I am not stubborn old man, and I am willing to change my position on the subject if someone can provide a valid argument with facts... I've already shown that.
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You can argue your side here all you want. It makes for some funny reading. Fact is none of us here have the ability to affect it for you. Have a nice life. :wink2:
 
I don't have anything scientific to add to this debate but I have a personal observation. I have known a fair number of really sharp people who are very successful in their field. If any of them use marijuana they did a good job of hiding it. I run in to losers who don't seem to care if anybody knows they use the stuff.
 
My brother used to be a really sharp guy. Used to be. He's the only one I know who got stupid in middle age. He's also the only other person I know who smoked pot every day for a good-sized portion of his life.

So what's my excuse?
 
Gary F said:
He apparently convinced an attorney to take his case. I am not sure that federal law supersedes state law here and there is a disability issue. The ADA has been used to justify all sorts of workplace BS. Any lawyer out there willing to comment?
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Likely because we don't have "Loser Pays" in our tort system. The lawyer gets paid for his time win, lose, or draw - he doesn't care about the merits of the case if his refrigerator is empty.
 
steingar said:
Try looking up the citations I referenced.
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Although the thread is now way off topic and about marijuana use in general as opposed to carrying it on an aircraft and weather an infraction is reportable to the FAA, I will proceed to try and argue my point of view because I think it is important the misconceptions are cleared up. Take this post as my opinion which I have backed up with facts and research from medical professionals in the field. I am not going to force you to agree with me, but I ask you at least read it with an open mind.

Old studies on marijuana are notorious for their inaccuracies. More recent studies can be found in both medical and psychological journals, and is what I base my opinion off of. I have found these articles through a paid educational journalistic database subscription that most people probably do not have access too. However, I have listed some examples of publications where my information has come from at the end of the post, so feel free to try and find the specific articles online or at your nearest library to read them or just ask me to email it to you.

I'll break my opinion into 3 parts.

1. Short-term effects (i.e. 24 hours)
Just like alcohol, it impairs decision making. Someone should not operate a vehicle while under the influence of marijuana. I am not trying to argue that.

2. Long-term effects
Contrary to speculation from older studies, newer studies show that marijuana-only smokers are at significantly lower risk of cancer than compared to tobacco users. Further more, research about marijuana is usually done using "marijuana cigarettes" or joints. This is known to be the most unhealthy way to consume marijuana. Water pipes and vaporizers removes between 90-99.9% of the impurities a joint does not. I am not arguing marijuana abuse is healthy. Abusing anything is unhealthy. Alcohol, tobacco, and even caffeine are perfect examples of this, marijuana is no different. People who abuse marijuana need to seek help the same as people who abuse alcohol and tobacco.

3. Legalization
Marijuana comes is a weed. It has been grown naturally for thousands of years. You cannot even say that about alcohol. Considering my opinions on the long-term effects above, there are no reasons to not have marijuana legal in this "free" country. I honestly see nothing but benefits. People smoke marijuana regardless of the law. The problem is, making weed illegal costs money. With the governments debt, why should billions be spent on incarcerating users, and paying law enforcement to deal with this? If it was legal, the opposite would likely be true because tax rates would be similar to cigarettes which is known to be extremely high (I believe this is somewhere near 100% in some states, someone correct me if I'm wrong). Marijuana currently costs between $200-$500 per oz on the street. Because it is sold on the "underground" market, the government makes zip off of these transactions. The violence associated with marijuana would disappear. When sold in a regulated, legal, environment, the "black market" will go away and violence goes away with it. This was shown when the prohibition of alcohol ended. It was a very similar situation.

References

Chen, A, Thomas J. H., C, Braverman, E, Acuri, V, Kerner, M, Varshavskiy, M, Braverman, D, Downs, W, Blum, S, Cassel, K, & Blum, K 2008, 'Hypothesizing that Marijuana Smokers are at a Significantly Lower Risk of Carcinogenicity Relative to Tobacco-Non-Marijuana Smokers: Evidenced Based on Statistical Reevaluation of Current Literature', Journal of Psychoactive Drugs, 40, 3, pp. 263-272, Academic Search Elite, EBSCOhost, viewed 21 December 2010.

Hoffmann, D, & Weber, E 2010, 'Medical Marijuana and the Law', New England Journal of Medicine, 22 April, Academic Search Elite, EBSCOhost, viewed 21 December 2010.

Nadelman, EA 2004, 'AN END TO Marijuana Prohibition. (Cover story)', National Review, 56, 13, pp. 28-33, Academic Search Elite, EBSCOhost, viewed 21 December 2010.
 
Gary F said:
I don't have anything scientific to add to this debate but I have a personal observation. I have known a fair number of really sharp people who are very successful in their field. If any of them use marijuana they did a good job of hiding it. I run in to losers who don't seem to care if anybody knows they use the stuff.
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This is very important information.

People who have good careers, family, etc... hide it. It IS illegal weather it is right or not. A CEO at a fortune 500 company is usually not going to admit to the public as a user under today's laws. There are many well-known users who have admitted this however.

There are a MUCH higher percentage of marijuana users than most think.
 
I think the original question has been answered in previous posts. Pilots can not use marijuana. If you are using it as prescribed for a medical condition it would likely be a disqualifying medical condition and marijuana is not on the approved list of acceptable medications. If it is decriminalized at the state level the federal government still considers it illegal. Your only hope is that it is legalized in the United States and the FAA does not prohibit marijuana use by pilots in spite of legalization.

http://www.youtube.com/user/schmoyoho#p/a/736C3116AD309B58/1/jbc2NaLuv1A
 
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Unregistered said:
And please keep in mind this is in comparison to ALCOHOL, which is already legal in the FAA's eye.
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You're pretty badly informed as to "legal in FAA's eye". You get one alcohol infraction, ER visit record, etc, however they get the info......, but the second one your'e in a world of certification hurt.

You are really really badly informed.
Do you know what HIMS is? If you don't you haven't got a clue.

Gad, Steingar, I look like Hunter S. Thompson?(!)
 
weilke said:
I am relieved to see that you are not only a pothead but also delusional.



Just write a letter to this guy:

David Grizzle
800 Independence Avenue SW
Washington, DC 20591

It may take a couple of months, but I am sure he'll give you a definitive answer.



Sure, because it's an illegal substance in the eyes of the feds.

It's kind of like being gay and married, under the 'defense of marriage act' the feds dont give a hoot what the states do. With pot, the feds dont usually get involved until you have a couple of 100 pounds of the stuff, but that doesn't make it legal in their book to have less of it.



Well, if you haven't been convicted, you dont have to check that box. You DO have to check the box for whatever condition your dealer is providing you with dope for.

Oh, I miss working with druggies. Or maybe not. You meet one, you've met them all.
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What an ignorant post. Keep downing your beers and tell yourself you're not a druggie while writing useless posts.
 
EdFred said:
If I use what is considered an illegal drug in the US, while I am in a country that considers the use of that drug legal do I have to check yes?
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Yes, if the FAA considers that drug illegal, as it does marijuana.

By the same token, if I consume/possess alcohol in a "dry" county/city/jurisdiction do I have to check yes?
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No, because the FAA doesn't consider alcohol to be illegal.
 
EdFred said:
By the same token, if I consume/possess alcohol in a "dry" county/city/jurisdiction do I have to check yes?
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I previously lived in a dry county in Arkansas. You can possess alcohol but alcohol sales are not allowed. You get your beer at the store on the other side of the county line.
 
I hope this will put this entire thread into perspective:

Pot IS illegal in CA. Period!
"how much" illegal it is, that is another question. Just because local PD's have been instructed to look the other way, doesn't change the actual law.
The FAA / Federal Gov't says it is illegal. No question there. If you smoke it, possess it, what ever you BROKE THE LAW.
So to the OP's original question:
No matter what, if you have anything to do with pot, you can't fly. Period, end of discussion!!!
 
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Unregistered said:
What an ignorant post. Keep downing your beers and tell yourself you're not a druggie while writing useless posts.
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Hey, hey, hey — don't be mean. We don't have to be mean. 'Cause, remember: no matter where you go... there you are. B.B.

Say what you want about alcohol but it's effects and metabolism are well understood. I do not understand why you consider any person who consumes alcohol to be a druggie. I don't think anybody really understands how marijuana affects somebody's ability to safely pilot an aircraft or any practical way to determine if someone is too impaired to fly. It appears that you really like marijuana but I think you should choose between aviation or the weed. I might even try it myself after I retire if my flying days are behind me.

I think I know the person you insulted in your post. If I am correct, you should consider yourself to be privileged to have been insulted by him.

To everybody else, let's stop beating up on the marijuana advocate.
 
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Gary F said:
I don't think that it is safe to assume that marijuana is equivalent in toxicity to tobacco. It may be better or it might be worse. I don't care what anybody consumes or uses as long as I do no suffer the consequences. I hope that I will not be sharing the sky with any stoner pilots.
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:rofl:

I'm guessing you are of my generation or older. If you were younger you would presume that you already are. Start with a decent percentage of younger 135 pilots and CFIs and go from there.
 
Gary F said:
I don't think anybody really understands how marijuana affects somebody's ability to safely pilot an aircraft or any practical way to determine if someone is too impaired to fly. It appears that you really like marijuana but I think you should choose between aviation or the weed. I might even try it myself after I retire if my flying days are behind me.
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I thought his question was about a medical marijuana user carrying it on an aircraft as a passenger.
 
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