"Manufacturer's Recommended Speed" vs Va for Performance Maneuvers

Revtach

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Revtach
My CFI taught me to begin steep turns, chandelles, and lazy eights at Va (95 knots). All well and good except that the POH for our C172 gives a "Recommended Entry Speed" for these maneuvers that is a little higher (105 knots). CFI claims it is not a big deal whether you use one speed or the other.

The ACS reads that you have to use the manufacturers recommended entry speed, or Va if there is no recommended entry speed.

Is my CFI wrong? Do examiners care which speed is used on a practical test?
 
I suspect your CFI is helping with the Va at a lower weight with just 2 people. The examiner might ask why it’s lower.

It’s easy to calculate if the poh doesn’t have a table …
Va (current weight) = Va (max weight) X sqrt( current weight / max weight).
 
Va is safe if you get rough on the controls as you won't break anything below Va, but the maneuvers you list shouldn't get you anywhere near the limit loads when flown properly even at a higher speed, and the additional speed gives you more margin over stall. I don't know about the regulatory aspects.
 
I was told to be at or above poh speed for steep turn. For the stall reasons. And have always done them that way.

Your CFI should have a good feel for the amount of G you are pulling for steep turns. A 45 degree bank isn’t likely to have you overloading anything. The key is to keep at 45. You pull too hard you’ll go up, too little and you’ll descend.
 
Understanding Va speed has sometimes eluded me over the years. The stated object of Va speed is to prevent structural damage in turbulence, but this speed is not always printed in the POH of many older airplanes. Va speed also decreases as weight is reduced which is presumably to limit G forces. I don't fully understand this because wing stress decreases as gross weight is reduced. I guess that means more Gs could be pulled at lower gross weights, but actual stress is lower with less weight. I have never read a good explanation why this is as it is.

I look at maneuvering speed a little differently and it has given me good results over the years. This may be a little bit off topic so I apologize in advance.

I like to fly into small airstrips that sometimes require tight maneuvering with reference to the ground. So, what is the tightest turn i can make and what is the minimum airspeed that the turn can be completed safely?

To tighten your turn over the ground you need to be at the slowest airspeed possible while simultaneously pulling the most Gs available without stalling the wings. The turn will be substantially tighter if flaps are used, but I limit flap use to settings that are also rated for climb. In my mooney that is 15 degrees, or takeoff flaps. In my previous airplane, a Cherokee 140, that was 2/3 flaps, or the "steep climb" setting. In my Mooney POH there is a handy chart showing stall speeds at various bank angles and different flap settings. I didn't see one in the Cherokee POH so I generated my own.

Stall speed increases with the square root of load factor. Load factor increases with the reciprocal of bank angle cosine. So at 45 degrees bank angle V-stall = Sqrt(1/COS45°) * V-stall at 0°. Cosine 45° is 0.7071, the reciprocal is 1.4142, the Sqrt of that is 1.1892, so if the 0° stall speed is 60, the 45° stall speed is 71.35. If I was flying this airplane at 45° bank I would keep the airspeed indicator at or above 74 during the turn. If the bank angle is 60°, then the 60° stall would be 84.85, and I would keep my airspeed indicator above 88 during the turn.

In my Mooney the stall speed is 67mph no flaps and 64 mph with takeoff flaps. At 67 mph the 45° stall is 79.7 and the 60° stall is 94.8. I fly using 85 and 100 respectively. At 64 mph the 45°stall is 76.1 and the 60° stall is 90.5. I fly using 80 and 95 respectively. I use these numbers because they are easy to remember. All these numbers are well below Va of 130 or 120 when lightly loaded.

I also have a lift indicator that gives me further insight to prevent stalling the wings in a turn.

Hope this helps. One Miracle at a time.
 
Understanding Va speed has sometimes eluded me over the years. The stated object of Va speed is to prevent structural damage in turbulence, but this speed is not always printed in the POH of many older airplanes. Va speed also decreases as weight is reduced which is presumably to limit G forces. I don't fully understand this because wing stress decreases as gross weight is reduced. I guess that means more Gs could be pulled at lower gross weights, but actual stress is lower with less weight. I have never read a good explanation why this is as it is.
The wing-to-fuselage connection is not the only thing subject to G forces. It's the most obvious one, of course, but such things as landing gear, fuel tank mounting (especially tip tanks), and engine mounts come to mind. If you were light enough, the wing might be able to support you pulling 10 G's, but other components of the plane may not.

EDIT - think of the baggage compartment. It has a weight limit of, say 200 pounds. That weight limit is usually based on the structural strength of the compartment itself. At 3.8 G's, that means it's designed for 760 pounds (plus a safety factor). If you put 5 G's on the plane, now it has to support 1000 pounds, which maybe it can't do.
 
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