Mandatory reporting...am I doing it wrong?

[Jim_R]

At my day job, there are lots of us who do the same work, and we have periodic informal and formal evaluations of our performance. When we screw up, either we self-report or it's noticed, and appropriately discussed in a timely fashion. It's all handled professionally, and helps us all maintain a high level of competence.

In contrast, I am painfully aware that when I fly IFR, there's nobody sitting next to me making suggestions on how I could better perform my CRM tasks, make better calls to ATC, or point out when I've missed a required task. The best I can get is to try to glean insights from other radio calls, ask my CFII specific questions when we do periodic currency work and BFRs, and ask random strangers on the internet for their opinions.

Two specific things that I'm not sure if I'm doing it wrong, or if it's a "yeah, that's what the AIM says, but..." kinda thing:

Thing #1:

5−3−3. Additional Reports
a. The following reports should be made to ATC or FSS facilities without a specific ATC request:

1. At all times.

(a) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight level for a newly assigned altitude or flight level.​

One particular STAR I'm frequently assigned has a note at the top for propeller pilots to "expect to cross XYZZY at 6000", and sure enough, ATC generally gives me that instruction about 15 minutes out. Most of the time, the radio is non-stop busy when it's time to descend (to maintain 500 fpm descent and hit 6000 at XYZZY), so in those cases I start down without announcing it. 93.7% of the time, the radio stays busy and I reach XYZZY before I ever get the chance to say I'm descending, and I end up getting a call from ATC with vectors shortly after I pass so by then my call is OBE. (The other times, I typically forget to report I'm leaving altitude because the opportunity happens so infrequently I'm just not in the habit.) This particular situation is about the only time I'm ever given a future altitude change instruction. [edited to be more clear]

ATC's never squawked at me for not reporting "leaving altitude". I don't think this is listed in the FARs, "just" the AIM. So how badly am I screwing up? Should I be trying to make the call when there's space on the freq available, and not worry about it when it's busy? Should I try harder to squeeze it in? Should I not worry about it so much at all?

Thing #2:

(c) When unable to climb/descend at a rate of a least 500 feet per minute​

Lightly loaded in the winter time, this isn't such a big deal, but in summer, especially when loaded, it doesn't take long in the climb for that VSI needle to start to get lazy. Maybe my plane is the only lethargic one in the sky, but I have *never* heard a pilot report "unable to maintain 500 fpm climb". I've also never been nagged about it by ATC.

Are there certain situations where this is more important? If I couldn't manage 500 fpm when climbing out in a Class B, or at a high-elevation towered field because of environmental conditions, I think I'd report this immediately. But en route, when cleared to climb from 3000' to 10000' outside the Mode C veil, does ATC *really* care?

Note that everywhere I've ever flown, I've been under radar surveillance the whole time. I'm sure ATC would care a lot more about these reports if they didn't have me on a scope...does radar (or ATSB) surveillance make these any less "mandatory" these days?

 

[drjcustis]

As far as Thing #2 goes, I think it would be more important if ATC had assigned a crossing limit and you couldn’t meet it due to limited climb ability. I’ve never heard anyone announce unable to climb at 500. I’ll be interested to hear what others have to say.

As far as Thing #1 goes, I’m not sure that I understand. It sounds like you are saying that you are assigned an altitude and then decide on your own to descend at a certain time since a STAR says to expect a certain altitude. I don’t think I would do that.


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[mscard88]

Thingy 1. You're supposed to report but reality is when you are in radar contact ATC "sees" you departing altitude for another. And they issued you the clearance (cross at 6000'), that's what I get from your post correct? So you did it correct. Nonradar environment you'd have to report leaving an altitude and it's understandable.

Thingy 2. Similar to above but probably more important in the Flight Levels. ATC equipment nowadays (from what I've heard) can compute it anyway. I know in the 121 world when we'd get below 500' FPM we'd advise, and either stay at a lower altitude or accelerate and resume climb when we got to the climb speed we were required to use, 250 or mach .70 where I flew.

 

[Bill Watson]

I don’t know the answers but want to take a shot for my own edification.

In case #1 I’m understanding you have been instructed to cross so&so at 6000 sometime before actually having to start your descent. When you decide it’s appropriate to start down you do so but the freq is so tied up you can’t get a word in edgewise to announce you are starting to descend. My take is that you should announce it but it’s ‘okay’ to just do it at the right time. That’s what is expected by ATC. I don’t fly a lot of STARS but that situation is sort of what they are designed for. More specifically where there is a mandatory crossing altitude, you are expected to hit it if you’ve been cleared for the procedure unless directed otherwise. And you should announce initiating the descent but.. you better do the descent no matter what.

In case #2, I have run into the same situation when high, heavy and hot. If it’s a normal enroute climb I don’t say anything because frankly even if I could, I might just decide to cruise climb up at 300’ fpm so who cares? On the other hand I’ve departed out of Westchester for flights south a number of times. I’ve learned that they will climb me to the north until 6,000 before vectoring me south over JFK. The faster I get up, the sooner the turn AND they expect you to make best rate up to 6. One day I had 4 on board with luggage in August. I could make 500fpm at the very most and eased off to 400fpm for cooling. I didn’t say ‘unable 500’ but should have because my slow rate clearly screwed up things and ATC was not happy. Telling them unable (unwilling) was clearly the right thing to do that day.

In general, when given a ‘at pilots disgression’ instruction I always announce initiation unless like you said, the freq is jammed. I routinely do cruise descents at 3 or 4 per and never say so. I can easily do much more if needed or desired.

Sort answer, I think you are doing it okay but there are situations where the ‘unable 500’ is a big deal and the AIM should be followed.


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[midlifeflyer]

#1. If the frequency is to busy to read back your new altitude with the word, "descending" or "climbing" added, I guess it's too busy.

#2. I think the question is "how badly" can you not maintain the 500 VSI.

Although these reports were born in an age when Radar was sparse, they still have a function. In theory anyway, ATC, particularly in busy areas, is giving instructions to other aircraft based on an expectation of your actions. If you are going to be substantially outside of those parameters, a report is a good idea to help out the pilot/ATC partnership..

 

[Jim_R]

As far as Thing #1 goes, I’m not sure that I understand. It sounds like you are saying that you are assigned an altitude and then decide on your own to descend at a certain time since a STAR says to expect a certain altitude. I don’t think I would do that.

No, neither would I. Sorry if I wasn't clear: I generally get that instruction from ATC as I arrive.

 

[Jim_R]

#1. If the frequency is to busy to read back your new altitude with the word, "descending" or "climbing" added, I guess it's too busy.

I guess I wasn't clear enough, so I edited that part of my post. It's not the readback; I get the instruction in advance and read it back at that time. But when I reach the point when it's time to start the descent, the radio is typically too busy to make the "leaving altitude" call.

 

[mscard88]

No, neither would I. Sorry if I wasn't clear: I generally get that instruction from ATC as I arrive.

OK, in your OP you stated ATC told you to "expect" 6000' at XYZ, and then later issued cross XYZ at 6000' correct? In that case you did the correct thing as I mentioned and that is what ATC expects. Sure, you should report your descent but like I said, when you're in radar contact they see your altitude readout on the scope so it's usually not a problem. Does ATC ever say anything when you don't announce your leaving your altitude for 6000"? They'd be more angry with you if you didn't cross XYZ at 6000' IMO.

 

[kayoh190]

I guess I wasn't clear enough, so I edited that part of my post. It's not the readback; I get the instruction in advance and read it back at that time. But when I reach the point when it's time to start the descent, the radio is typically too busy to make the "leaving altitude" call.

Yeah, I'm with mscard88 on this - you're supposed to announce your descent, but in radar contact ATC doesn't care and if it's busy, I generally don't. It drives the AIM nazis nuts, but when the frequency is slammed I'm not going to make matters worse with a call that does nothing for anyone.

 

[mwagg737]

The only time I report leaving is in a non radar environment. As somebody said, these procedures were born during the non radar days.
The 500 foot per minute thingy primarily applies in the class A airspace. With modern radar, even that is becoming a thing of the past and we are routinely less than 500 feet a minute depending on ISA delta and altitude. ATC is well aware of the performance limitations of your small aircraft.
Frequency congestion is far more of an issue than letting them know you're descending out of an altitude when you've already been given a Crossing restriction.


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[midlifeflyer]

I guess I wasn't clear enough, so I edited that part of my post. It's not the readback; I get the instruction in advance and read it back at that time. But when I reach the point when it's time to start the descent, the radio is typically too busy to make the "leaving altitude" call.

My comment remains the same, although delayed

 

[SbestCFII]

As far as Thing #2 goes, I think it would be more important if ATC had assigned a crossing limit and you couldn’t meet it due to limited climb ability. I’ve never heard anyone announce unable to climb at 500. I’ll be interested to hear what others have to say.

As far as Thing #1 goes, I’m not sure that I understand. It sounds like you are saying that you are assigned an altitude and then decide on your own to descend at a certain time since a STAR says to expect a certain altitude. I don’t think I would do that.


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Yep...what he said.

 

[Larry in TN]

The AIM says that you 'should' make those reports. They are not required by any regulation. Make those reports when you can, which should be nearly every time, but you aren't violating any regulation if you miss one.

 

[Jim_R]

Thanks for the answers, everyone. I appreciate the feedback.