MAN, I'm angry!!!

etsisk

etsisk

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Talked with a neighbor - there is some property that we have always walked on, a mile or two through the woods. My wife walks our dogs on it on a regular basis. At one point there was some question as to whether we could walk on it, so we obtained permission to do so. We thought. Turns out that about half way through, the path joins another path and it's someone else's property. They leased it to a hunting club, comprised of at least one Alpha Hotel, who called my neighbor and said "we don't want anyone walking on that property. If we see an unleashed dog, we'll shoot it. If we see a leashed dog, we'll shoot the owner."

When my neighbor relayed that message I canNOT tell you how angry that made me - far as I was concerned, it was a direct threat against my wife, made on the VERY FIRST effort to communicate that there was even a problem. I told our neighbor that 1) what I thought of the guy that would say something like that and requested that he give the jerk my name and phone number and he could talk to me if he wanted to threaten my wife or dogs, and 2) (once I was able to cool off a bit) that we will, of course, respect property rights, that we had never seen anything saying we couldn't be on that property and thought we had permission.

My neighbor (who is the guy that pretty much decides who can or cannot use that land) said he'll deal with it. I have no problem with someone having property rights and respecting those rights - we THOUGHT we had the proper permissions. I have a LOT of problem with folks acting like that, though. :mad:

I'm not going off half- or fully-cocked and am not going to go do violence to anyone. But damn, what kind of way is that to act??
 
That is absolutely ridiculous! In a day and age when hunters are getting less and less land available to hunt on, Alpha Hotel's like this are simply compounding the problem. I can completely understand you being ticked severely! If someone even JOKED about shooting my wife (or my dog) I would be on a war-path! Guys like this are giving us responsible hunters/gun owners a horrible name to the general public.

Hopefully a peaceful settlement will come through for you. Either way, I would recommend your wife wear something brightly colored (blaze orange if she's willing) when walking anywhere near the 'protected' property. If she is confronted while on the path and it even becomes SLIGHTLY uncivil, I would get law enforcement involved ASAP. Anybody that would even joke about shooting another human being isn't stable.
 
I agree Tom. There are 8 of us that currently have leases on over 2,000 acres of hunting land. The property is posted "no hunting/trespassing" even though we're not required to do so by law.

That being said, when we find someone on the property either by foot or ATV we politely inform them that the property is posted and it may be dangerous for them to be on the property during hunting season. So far all have respected our conversation (as I'm sure you would have done).

There is no reason for someone to react the way these folks did.
 
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Tom:

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass.

-M.Twain
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I hope that this quote brings you the inner peace that I have experienced over the years ;) If it doesn't, this one should (I love Mr. Clemens...):

I thoroughly disapprove of duels. I consider them unwise and I know they are dangerous. Also, sinful. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet retired spot and kill him.
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This guy is supposed to be a cop of some sort out in the western part of the state. That works for me. That means he has a chief, somewhere, and the Chief has a town council or county commission somewhere.

Mr. Clemens, while I can't subscribe to his position in the second quote, had a certain way about him, I think. :D
 
etsisk said:
Talked with a neighbor - there is some property that we have always walked on, a mile or two through the woods. My wife walks our dogs on it on a regular basis. At one point there was some question as to whether we could walk on it, so we obtained permission to do so. We thought. Turns out that about half way through, the path joins another path and it's someone else's property. They leased it to a hunting club, comprised of at least one Alpha Hotel, who called my neighbor and said "we don't want anyone walking on that property. If we see an unleashed dog, we'll shoot it. If we see a leashed dog, we'll shoot the owner."

When my neighbor relayed that message I canNOT tell you how angry that made me - far as I was concerned, it was a direct threat against my wife, made on the VERY FIRST effort to communicate that there was even a problem. I told our neighbor that 1) what I thought of the guy that would say something like that and requested that he give the jerk my name and phone number and he could talk to me if he wanted to threaten my wife or dogs, and 2) (once I was able to cool off a bit) that we will, of course, respect property rights, that we had never seen anything saying we couldn't be on that property and thought we had permission.

My neighbor (who is the guy that pretty much decides who can or cannot use that land) said he'll deal with it. I have no problem with someone having property rights and respecting those rights - we THOUGHT we had the proper permissions. I have a LOT of problem with folks acting like that, though. :mad:

I'm not going off half- or fully-cocked and am not going to go do violence to anyone. But damn, what kind of way is that to act??
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Any idea where said Alpha Hotel is from?

I ask because I grew up in area that always had an influx of hunters coming from metropolitan areas (read: Baltimore). Experiences like the one you've listed were fairly common with out-of-the-area hunters, especially those of the urban cowboy variety.

As a former police officer, I'm sure you're aware of this, but I'll put it out there anyway - it might be worth a call to the local agency, just so that if there's any problem in the future, there's a paper trail. Were something to happen (not necessarily involving you - perhaps another adjoining property owner - with a guy like this it's possibly if not likely), would be well worth the time.

Anyway, I hope the situation is resolved without further problems on your part.
 
If they want people off their land that badly, they need a fence.

As wrong as it is, I'm picturing Harry Callahan - "Go ahead, punk . . ."
 
etsisk said:
This guy is supposed to be a cop of some sort out in the western part of the state. . :D
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Way too many Barneys in the world, and sadly, not enough Andys. Here's another thought, since you've been walking on it for a good long time, investigate implied consent(Obi might know more). Unless something that you've been doing regularly for a long time was prohibited and you just went ahead and broke the law, you may have rights to trespass unless and until it's fenced. Berzerkely CA has case law on this from the 70s and 80s.
 
If the property line beyond which you had clear permission is not posted and the line is not clearly defined, I'd say you're in the right on this one. Now that you're aware, that's a different story. On the other hand, the means by which he gave notice without posting on the line seems more like an unnecessary threat to life. I doubt he'd have much to stand on with that one as well.

If the land is used for hunting, he'd best post it accordingly so others have fair warning of the danger. While he's at it, he might want to put up a Kevlar fence a couple hundred feet high. Last I heard, buck shot and bullets don't usually respect boundaries without first making an attempt to pass.

If his choice of notice is indicative of his hunting safety, he's a dangerous person to be around.
 
I guess he is not going to like us flying low as safety and the law allows over "his" property on opening day of deer season either!
 
docmirror said:
...Here's another thought, since you've been walking on it for a good long time, investigate implied consent....
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Unfortunately, that's way too fine a point of law for me to be able to digress on - every state's law is different, particularly in areas of property. That shames me, because I went to law school in NC....

Implied consent might not even be an issue, though - it sounds like the hunting club is the lessee, rather than the owner. Generally, under a hunting lease (we used to lease some of our farms in MD to hunters), the lessee only gets to be on the property - he doesn't take the more extensive rights you get with something like an apartment lease. Thus, the hunter can be on the property, but he doesn't get any rights beyond that.

For what it's worth....
 
cherokeeflyboy said:
I guess he is not going to like us flying low as safety and the law allows over "his" property on opening day of deer season either!
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<snort>

Great idea!

Take it a step farther - get an STC for those deer whistles you'll see on cars. Bolt 'em to the wings!
 
Hey, in addition to sending the guys' boss a polite letter, work the words 'Michael Vick' in there somewhere. Then, send another copy to the local small paper too. You could even suggest some commentary:

"Local police officer vows to go 'Michael Vick' on area pets"(that should sell some papers)

In local news, avid hunter and police officer says he'll "shoot any unleashed dogs" trespassing on his hunting lease. Officer Barney Fife regularly carries a S&W 38 revolver, and also has several shotguns, and rifles for hunting. If the dogs are leashed, officer Fife promises to leave the dogs alone, and only shoot the owners of said dogs.

This dispute stems from pet owners who regularly have walked their pets(never say dogs, or animals, always 'pets') through the woods in this area. There are no markings, fences, signs or other indications of land ownership, but watch-out, set a foot wrong and it's 'BLAM' for little Scooter, or Fifi.
 
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oh wow, michael vick is a verb now.

that kind of response is pretty uncalled for. it may be safest to stay away from a person who has guns and acts like that.
 
cherokeeflyboy said:
I guess he is not going to like us flying low as safety and the law allows over "his" property on opening day of deer season either!
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Indeed. 300... 500... who can really tell, ya know? Prop full? "Check" Throttle in? "Check" "OK, lets do some sightseeing!" "Hey, I see a salt lick!"

re: David's comments: He's got that one right. Most lessees back east can't say BOO about what actually occurs on the property, the landowner is the one in charge.

re: The Death Threat (and I do consider this one): Call your local LEO immediately and tell them what this moron said. That is a threat to your life. Treat it as one. All he may need is a good talkin' to by the locals.

But really, stay away from transient hunters. It just gets bad, quickly. If any of you guys ARE transient hunters sorry, but... THOSE GUYS ARE IDIOTS.

You may consider putting up a sign on "your" side of the line, "Here are treasured dogs and adored family members. No shooting, please! (county ord.: blahblahblah)"
 
This would be a fine opportunity to Not Escalate an already bad thing. Everyone loses when shots are fired.

You should come live in Texas. I wouldn't be surprised to find people actually had been shot for trespassing here. It was made pretty clear to me what a Property Rights state is when I moved down here. You just don't go on land you don't own in Texas. I fully expect to at least hear warning shots if I were to start to scale a fence.

And remember, every cause has some as-yet-unheard counter arguments... we all have heard of idiots who did something stupid on a landowners property....or someone who sued for an injury while trespassing: so you can see why some owners are sensitive about anyone on their land.

I completely agree the owner presented his stance in a very stupid manner. But an equally bad reaction could put things over the top.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
This would be a fine opportunity to Not Escalate an already bad thing. Everyone loses when shots are fired.

You should come live in Texas. I wouldn't be surprised to find people actually had been shot for trespassing here. It was made pretty clear to me what a Property Rights state is when I moved down here. You just don't go on land you don't own in Texas. I fully expect to at least hear warning shots if I were to start to scale a fence.

And remember, every cause has some as-yet-unheard counter arguments... we all have heard of idiots who did something stupid on a landowners property....or someone who sued for an injury while trespassing: so you can see why some owners are sensitive about anyone on their land.

I completely agree the owner presented his stance in a very stupid manner. But an equally bad reaction could put things over the top.
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But on the other hand, is'nt there a law in Texas that says you HAVE to shoot somebody that shots your dog?
 
No excuse for threats like that. Just reveals the nature of the AH when one hears things like this. I'm sorry to hear this.

We used to manage 8,000 acres in Alabama for quail (my father-in-law). Had lots of issues with trespassers. Dad was normally very cordial, but the property was posted. We didn't mind someone walking on it, but we found a lot of trash (which we had to clean up), lots of kittens and puppies dropped off. One day, someone was so brazen as to pull onto the property with a full trailer of hunting dogs and horses. Was unloading when we happened upon him. Escorted him to the sheriff's office.

So, Tom, you and your wife might be great folks. Unfortunately many others aren't and the good folks pay a penalty for the bad ones.

Best,

Dave
 
heh, I'll trash Texans as quick as the next guy... after all they do ski in jeans... JEANS!

But really, they aren't as bad as most think. Obey property/water rights and Texans are as right as rain.

Just make sure you don't cut them off in snowpack conditions on I-70, then they get all territorial and try to kill you with the family pickup.

You gotta watch out for those transient hunters, those guys are wacko!
 
smoore said:
heh, I'll trash Texans as quick as the next guy... after all they do ski in jeans... JEANS!
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And the problem is???? :D

Just make sure you don't cut them off in snowpack conditions on I-70, then they get all territorial and try to kill you with the family pickup.
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Tactical driving is taught in High School around here. B)

But on the topic at hand.. I'd vote for not escalating the problem with any kind of confrontation. I would call my local law enforcement agency and just have a chat with the supervisor on duty to let them know your concerns. Odds are, he/she may know the off duty officer in question. And if the behavior described so far is true, I'll bet it won't be the first time there's been a concern.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
This would be a fine opportunity to Not Escalate an already bad thing. Everyone loses when shots are fired.
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Agreed.

Let'sgoflying! said:
You should come live in Texas. I wouldn't be surprised to find people actually had been shot for trespassing here. It was made pretty clear to me what a Property Rights state is when I moved down here. You just don't go on land you don't own in Texas. I fully expect to at least hear warning shots if I were to start to scale a fence.
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Indeed. And now the legislature is affirming those rights, with the so-called Castle Law, a bill captioned "Relating to the use of force or deadly force in defense of a person."
 
ausrere said:
And the problem is???? :D
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Zero problem until you have to put one in the shack because of hypothermia. After that, it did become my problem. A little nylon goes a long way. Back it up with polypro fleece and that guy just skis on. Gooooo fleece!

Tactical driving is taught in High School around here. B)
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That's fine at 30mph on surface streets (note Boston, NYC or D.C.). Once you cause a problem at 70mph on a crowded, slick interstate, it becomes EVERYONE'S problem. That's not cool. Trust me, I'll swap paint with the best Boston (or Houston) has to offer at surface street speeds.

(I understand we're talking tongue-in-cheek)

ausrere said:
I would call my local law enforcement agency and just have a chat with the supervisor on duty to let them know your concerns.
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Again, please do this, OP. This is a threat.
 
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This reminds me of a very nice older couple I once met who own a B&B on some modest mountain acreage in Vermont: local hunters had been poaching deer on their land, and soon after they complained (I assume they called the cops) they awoke one morning to find a severed deer head on their front porch. With guests in the house. :no:

Guns and sociopaths make for a dangerous mix- be careful.

If I was willing to threaten or take potshots at trespassers on some parcel I owned, I would have good fences and many warning signs specifically outlining that trespassers would be shot.
It's ridiculous to promise something that harsh when there isn't even a fence.
 
smoore said:
(I understand we're talking tongue-in-cheek)
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Of course. Having once stood at the edge of icy roads (wearing thermals..not jeans) handing out blue forms (self report accident forms) to one accident after another for hours.. I can vouch for how well some Texans drive on snow and ice. :rofl:
 
ausrere said:
I can vouch for how well some Texans drive on snow and ice. :rofl:
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I can recall standing outside that party hall south of the convention
center in Dallas one February during what we in Nebraska would call
a light dusting and watching one car after another slide right thru
the intersection and broadside someone. You're right .. they don't
do ice and snow well.
 
Tom, others have made some valid statements but I strongly encourage you to know the local laws (if you don't from your LE days). The following is applicable in TN and may not be applicable in NC or anywhere else:

TN does not require land owners to "post" their property. There is an implied law that if the land does not belong to you, walking on it is considered trespassing. Secondly, TN law states that any animal chasing "game" can legally be killed. Yes, this applies to dogs but is mostly used to kill coydogs (cross between coyotes and dogs which are aggressive and have no fear of people).

My neighbor lost a dog about 10 years ago on opening day of bow season in the woods behind our houses. He came over and asked if I knew what happened. I politely responded that I had no idea. He stated that he knew I was hunting and was just wondering if I shot his dog because it was chasing a deer as it was known to do (knowing full well I'd be in my rights to do so). I explained to him that his friendship was more important and I did not see, nor kill, his dog. Story ends there.

I guess the morale of the story is while laws might be on the books to do so, I'm not that callus to kill a neighbors dog, and certainly not a person, over this type of incident.

Good luck with the situation and be safe.
​
 
etsisk said:
..called my neighbor and said "we don't want anyone walking on that property. If we see an unleashed dog, we'll shoot it. If we see a leashed dog, we'll shoot the owner."
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I don't know about NC property laws. Perhaps they can just blow someone
away there for tresspassing. But I would report this to LE and the local prosecutor's office in writing so there's a record of this threat. Then should
something actually happen it could show it was premeditated.

RT
 
smoore said:
Don't you know those cross-hatched cotton underwear get the CO mtn men all riled up? You're lucky you weren't proposed to right on the spot! ;)
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Now that you mention it....it was about the time my ex-husband, a Canadian, proposed...hmmmm. :rolleyes:



..............now back to the regularly scheduled thread.
 
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Well, I'm not going to risk an armed confrontation for a walk in the woods. I REALLY disliked the threat, though it was what is called a "conditional threat" here in NC (if you do this, then I'll do that) and does not qualify as a threat for the crime of "Communicating threats". But I've made my position known in a manner that will get it across to the utter fool that made it.
I don't see a need to make a police report - that would only be needed in the case of something bad actually happening, and I've got my neighbor who will say what was said to him and by whom (which is what would have to happen anyway, as the jerk didn't tell me, just told my neighbor).

So bottom line, we'll stay out of the damn woods until January (end of hunting season) and we'll see what happens after that.

Now I'm going to go and laugh at the image of Lisa in her long underwear handing out accident forms. :D
 
I dunno man... it's been awhile since I was back east but I think it'd be nice to just have this on the blotter. I assume you're on better terms with the local LEOs than this interloper is.

I'm not one to contact The Law in most cases but when it comes to unknown rednecks and firearms... I'm one of the first. It's probably just bravado but you never know. Lets face it, he's not one of yours, he's outside.
 
etsisk said:
Now I'm going to go and laugh at the image of Lisa in her long underwear handing out accident forms. :D
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Well, in my defense, they were covered by uniform pants..not that they helped keep my any warmer. But I'm only glad to help give you a giggle. :cheerswine:
 
TangoWhiskey said:
And now the legislature is affirming those rights, with the so-called Castle Law, a bill
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Wow Troy I didn't realize we did not already have the right to defend our persons and property or couldn't use force & deadly force if required to protect the same!
Oh well, probably would not have stopped me anyway!
Don't they say here, 'If you shoot em in the back, drag the body back onto your property before calling the cops"!

I can recall one homicide in my tiny town in 16 years, a murder/suicide of 'passion' as they say.
 
I think hunting would be more sporting if the animals could shoot back...
 
I have leased thousands of acres over the years for hunting and training the dogs. Every state has different laws as far as trespass goes. So it is best to know these laws before you send your wife and your dog on the property. It seems like that many of these Goobers are always pulling some kind of tough guy act. I would not make a big deal out of it unless you are ready to deal with more frustration and stupidity. Stay off the property during hunting season and use after, IF YOU HAVE PERMISSIONfrom the land owner?

You could always offer to lease the land yourself next year.

I once owned 630acres I politly asked a local Goober to stay off He was mad but left. This goober was talking all over town about wHat a Jerk I was for buying this property and keeping people off of it. I told him a couple times that is my right and I bought it to be able to hunt,fish and work dogs and horses and be safe from others. He did not understand until the day I went to his house, in his back yard and picked an apple from his tree and sat in the shade of his Oak tree and enjoyed his apple. He was PI$$ED. But He got the point and I never heard any more from Him.

Jon
 
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dogman said:
I once owned 630acres I politly asked a local Goober to stay off He was mad but left. This goober was talking all over town about wHat a Jerk I was for buying this property and keeping people off of it. I told him a couple times that is my right and I bought it to be able to hunt,fish and work dogs and horses and be safe from others. He did not understand until the day I went to his house, in his back yard and picked an apple from his tree and sat in the shade of his Oak tree and enjoyed his apple. He was PI$$ED. But He got the point and I never heard any more from Him. Jon
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Heheheh... I like that, Jon! :)

We're working on the permission thing for the non-hunting-season times of the year, and it's possible that we'll do a neighborhood lease of the property to keep the loons off. I just can't spend $2K myself to lease it for just those few months. :(

But it's all going to get worked out. He was just a jerk. I'm actually sort of glad he was NOT stupid enough to be saying that kind of crap to my face. It could all have gotten pretty ugly. I didn't take it well, for sure. Glad he wasn't there, the jerk.
 
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