Malibu down near Erie airport, Colorado

I can't help but wonder if fuel starvation is a factor ... perhaps left EIK with a light fuel load, factoring PAX load and runway, probably didn't buy fuel at APA as it's considerably higher than home field EIK ... maybe some sightseeing on the way back ???

Sad deal.
 
colojo said:
I've never flown a PA-46 but I wonder if they behave similar to the Acclaim in a go-around... if you simply mash the throttle full forward the nose will go straight up due to the significant aft trim required in the landing configuration. This is a recipe for a departure stall, especially with a fully loaded airplane.
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My -10 is the same way and takes a bit of strength until you are back in trim. A good reason to practice go-arounds at full gross/aft cg with a cabin full of distractions. One is less likely to be surprised.
 
gkainz said:
I can't help but wonder if fuel starvation is a factor ... perhaps left EIK with a light fuel load, factoring PAX load and runway, probably didn't buy fuel at APA as it's considerably higher than home field EIK ... maybe some sightseeing on the way back ???

Sad deal.
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In the bove news article...a pilot said he was making power, high nose and low speed. With a tailwind he should have appeared faster to someone on the ground.
 
The plane may have been outside the W&B envelope :dunno: Maybe when he tried to go around some luggage and/or the dog shifted to the back? Hopefully the NTSB report will shed more light on this when it comes up.

As for trim when going full throttle on a go around, I always trim on final and that trim setting is perfect for the takeoff. If he was not trimmed it would need a lot of back pressure but then it would need it too on final. If the plane was performing normally and was within W&B this doesn't make a lot of sense to be honest.
 
Lord Muck said:
As for trim when going full throttle on a go around, I always trim on final and that trim setting is perfect for the takeoff.
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Mr. Muck, this is definitely not the case with my airplane. Takeoff trim is somewhat forward of neutral, and landing trim is almost full aft. For this reason go-arounds can be quite dramatic... it's not hard to find yourself in a departure stall if you can't outrun the trim.

As I mentioned before, I've never flown a PA-46, so it may or may not be the case with that airplane. At this point we're all speculating.

I'm just brokenhearted that 5 lives were lost, plus a canine that I'm sure they all loved. In good time the investigation will produce its results and hopefully we'll all benefit from the knowledge gained.
 
colojo said:
Mr. Muck, this is definitely not the case with my airplane. Takeoff trim is somewhat forward of neutral, and landing trim is almost full aft. For this reason go-arounds can be quite dramatic... it's not hard to find yourself in a departure stall if you can't outrun the trim.

As I mentioned before, I've never flown a PA-46, so it may or may not be the case with that airplane. At this point we're all speculating.

I'm just brokenhearted that 5 lives were lost, plus a canine that I'm sure they all loved. In good time the investigation will produce its results and hopefully we'll all benefit from the knowledge gained.
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:D

Funny being called Mr Muck.

Sorry I should have been more clear, I have the same make and model PA46-350 so I was relating my experience with trim in that plane. When landing I cross the numbers at 85 knots 30 degrees flaps and when taking off rotate at 80 knots 10 degrees flaps. In both cases the trim setting is essentially the same. A go around is full throttle and pitch for 90 knots, flaps 10, gear up, flaps up (when positive climb). It is pretty close to a normal departure nothing dramatic.
 
Lord Muck said:
:D

Funny being called Mr Muck.
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I thought to call you My Liege, but I wasn't sure I was in your jurisdiction. You don't show up in the list of Lords to whom I report. I certainly meant you no offense. :D

All kidding aside, the details you provided about your aircraft's trim settings suggest that my theories about trim settings are likely not applicable in this case.
 
Going back to the earlier comments about how fast he was going when only a few miles from the field (over 200 mph) he may have deployed speed brakes then forgot to retract them during the go around. I can't see the top surfaces of the wings in the pictures so not sure if this plane had them. If he really was trying to land on 33 he would have had to use speed brakes to slow down if we are to believe the track log.
 
Lord Muck said:
Going back to the earlier comments about how fast he was going when only a few miles from the field (over 200 mph) he may have deployed speed brakes then forgot to retract them during the go around. I can't see the top surfaces of the wings in the pictures so not sure if this plane had them. If he really was trying to land on 33 he would have had to use speed brakes to slow down if we are to believe the track log.
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I don't hold any of these track logs as 'primary information' too often there is something wonky. The eyewitness report seems to think he was pretty slow.
 
Lord Muck said:
Going back to the earlier comments about how fast he was going when only a few miles from the field (over 200 mph) he may have deployed speed brakes then forgot to retract them during the go around. I can't see the top surfaces of the wings in the pictures so not sure if this plane had them. If he really was trying to land on 33 he would have had to use speed brakes to slow down if we are to believe the track log.
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Speed brakes aren't that effective at slower speeds, probably less than lowering the landing gear, assuming they were sized correctly. The are design to slow you down from higher speeds, when I retract mine after lowering the gear I can hardly notice the decreased drag
 
NTSB Identification: CEN14FA467
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Sunday, August 31, 2014 in Erie, CO
Aircraft: PIPER PA 46 350P, registration: N228LL
Injuries: 5 Fatal.

On August 31, 2014 about 1150 mountain daylight time, a Piper Malibu PA-46, N228LL, was substantially damaged when the airplane impacted terrain near Erie Municipal Airport (EIK), Erie. The airplane was owned and operated by The Real Estate School, LLC, Erie, Colorado. The private pilot and four passengers on board were fatally injured. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed and no flight plan had been filed. The personal flight was conducted under the provisions of 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91.

In statements provided to the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) Investigator-In-Charge (IIC), witnesses saw the accident airplane on final approach to runway 33 while another airplane was departing runway 15. Witnesses stated the two airplanes crossed in "close proximity." The airplane continued down runway 33 and power was applied "as if to go-around." A witness in the fixed-base operator's building described the airplane at low altitude with full power, in a left bank with a nose-high attitude. Witnesses said it appeared the "airplane did not want to fly, it appeared to be in a stall," and "it did not accelerate or climb." The airplane continued in a "rapid descent" until impacting terrain.

At 1135, the EIK automated weather reporting facility reported wind from 160 degrees at 6 knots, visibility 10 miles, temperature 21 degrees Celsius (C), dew point 10 degrees C, and an altimeter reading of 29.95 inches of mercury.

The main wreckage contained all primary structural components and flight control surfaces. The wreckage was retained by the NTSB for further examination.
 
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