Maintaining Separation In A Congested Traffic Pattern, Uncontrolled Airport

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Shades

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Shades
During my second solo (touch-and-goes at an uncontrolled airport with a right-hand traffic pattern), the pattern started getting pretty congested. I was flying a Cessna 150, and was joined by other trainers, a couple of twins and one gulfstream jet. My question is: What tools are at a pilots disposal to maintain separation from other aircraft flying different speeds at an uncontrolled airport?
A couple specific questions from that flight:

*When the Gulfstream called ten mile final and I had just taken off for a touch-and-go, I climbed to pattern altitude, extended upwind, and turned x-wind later than usual to give him time to land (no other planes in the pattern at that time). I also flew a wider downwind leg. Are either of these (extending upwind, widening downwind) correct? I'd heard of extending downwind, but not extending upwind or making a wider downwind leg. In this situation, I thought it would be safer to stay on the side of the airfield away from the landing Gulfstream than potentially crossing paths on my downwind/his final. Thoughts?

*That same flight there was a Cessna Skylane ahead of me in the pattern, also doing touch-and-goes. He was on final for a touch-and-go when I was behind him on the downwind leg. I extended downwind to give him time to land, but didn't extend enough and on turning final he was still on the runway. He did take off in time for me to safely land behind him.

My question is: if he was still on the runway, and I wasn't able to land, what would have been the best course of action to take? I think I would have performed a go-around, keeping left of the runway (right-hand traffic pattern), but not sure what I would have done next given that he was taking off again and would stay in the pattern. What are some options to get back into the pattern and stay out of his way in that situation?

Any other tools to buy more time? What about 360 turns from/to downwind leg? How would the radio call for that go?

Any thoughts or advice are appreciated!

Tracklog from the flight:
http://tinyurl.com/kvugsaf
 
Sounds like you did just fine. Doing a 360 sounds a bit over accommodating, remember you have just as much right to be there as the rest of them. The real key is situational awareness and knowing where the other guy is and having him in sight is a real bonus. Doing a 360 risks a good chance you'll lose sight of him.
 
Nice thing about a 150 is you can fly it pretty damn slow if you need to to space things out. When I'm out doing laps on our small uncontrolled field, I like the runway to be clear when I turn final, but I do a close pattern in a 172. No need for the jet patterns.

Did the gulfstream do a straight-in approach? Always seemed like a jerk thing to do at an uncontrolled field with others in the pattern, but I don't know if it'd be safer if they didn't.
 
360s are an acceptable way to build in spacing. Radio call would go something like "XYZ is on the downwind, gonna do a 360 to build in spacing for ABC"

I would add that only do a 360 if there is no one behind you in the pattern cause otherwise he's gonna catch up to you and you've just created another problem.
 
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UngaWunga said:
Nice thing about a 150 is you can fly it pretty damn slow if you need to to space things out. When I'm out doing laps on our small uncontrolled field, I like the runway to be clear when I turn final, but I do a close pattern in a 172. No need for the jet patterns.

Did the gulfstream do a straight-in approach? Always seemed like a jerk thing to do at an uncontrolled field with others in the pattern, but I don't know if it'd be safer if they didn't.
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Jets burn lots of fuel at low altitudes and want to spend as little time there as is absolutely necessary. You may think that jet pilots are jerks, but they are dealing with a lot more energy than you are and their patterns (if flown) are far wider. They want to get it on the ground as quickly as possible with little or no maneuvering, tower or no tower.

Bob Gardner
 
Shades said:
During my second solo (touch-and-goes at an uncontrolled airport with a right-hand traffic pattern), the pattern started getting pretty congested. I was flying a Cessna 150, and was joined by other trainers, a couple of twins and one gulfstream jet. My question is: What tools are at a pilots disposal to maintain separation from other aircraft flying different speeds at an uncontrolled airport?
A couple specific questions from that flight:

*When the Gulfstream called ten mile final and I had just taken off for a touch-and-go, I climbed to pattern altitude, extended upwind, and turned x-wind later than usual to give him time to land (no other planes in the pattern at that time). I also flew a wider downwind leg. Are either of these (extending upwind, widening downwind) correct? I'd heard of extending downwind, but not extending upwind or making a wider downwind leg. In this situation, I thought it would be safer to stay on the side of the airfield away from the landing Gulfstream than potentially crossing paths on my downwind/his final. Thoughts?

*That same flight there was a Cessna Skylane ahead of me in the pattern, also doing touch-and-goes. He was on final for a touch-and-go when I was behind him on the downwind leg. I extended downwind to give him time to land, but didn't extend enough and on turning final he was still on the runway. He did take off in time for me to safely land behind him.

My question is: if he was still on the runway, and I wasn't able to land, what would have been the best course of action to take? I think I would have performed a go-around, keeping left of the runway (right-hand traffic pattern), but not sure what I would have done next given that he was taking off again and would stay in the pattern. What are some options to get back into the pattern and stay out of his way in that situation?

Any other tools to buy more time? What about 360 turns from/to downwind leg? How would the radio call for that go?

Any thoughts or advice are appreciated!

Tracklog from the flight:
http://tinyurl.com/kvugsaf
Click to expand...

Eyeballs.

If the Skylane was on final when you were on downwind, there was no conflict. The rule at controlled airports is 3000 feet between the landing airplane and the one still on the runway....should work at uncontrolled airports, don't you think?

See if you can find a YouTube of traffic at Oshkosh...you will see planes landing simultaneously...one on the numbers and one halfway down the runway.

Bob Gardner
 
You did well!

My only comment: on a go around, go to the right side of the runway every time. This puts the runway out the left window where you can see it easily. Down low, it will be hard to see it on the right side of the plane.
 
Shades said:
......... My question is: What tools are at a pilots disposal to maintain separation from other aircraft flying different speeds at an uncontrolled airport?
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Adjust your speed (not much you can do with that in a 150), widen your pattern out and/or extend your downwind. Stay alert (eyes outside) and use your radio. Sounds like you did good :wink2:
 
Personally, I would not want to extend my upwind, nor fly a wider pattern.

Either could result in being out of gliding range of the airport, which I try to avoid.

I would fly a normal pattern, but slow down on downwind to stay as close as possible while waiting for the landing traffic to pass roughly abeam before turning base.

Anyway, run this by your instructor and let us know what he or she says.
 
Shades said:
.........................
*That same flight there was a Cessna Skylane ahead of me in the pattern, also doing touch-and-goes. He was on final for a touch-and-go when I was behind him on the downwind leg. I extended downwind to give him time to land, but didn't extend enough and on turning final he was still on the runway. He did take off in time for me to safely land behind him.

My question is: if he was still on the runway, and I wasn't able to land, what would have been the best course of action to take? I think I would have performed a go-around, keeping left of the runway (right-hand traffic pattern), but not sure what I would have done next given that he was taking off again and would stay in the pattern. What are some options to get back into the pattern and stay out of his way in that situation?
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Yes the standard is to always pass on the right, OTOH in this situation with the preceeding aircraft in closed right traffic I'm not so sure but what it might be safer to go left?
 
Response from my instructor, for anyone interested:

Flying in the pattern without a control tower, that will ask you to modify your pattern, with aircraft that are either slower or faster is one of the skills you are developing. First, the landing aircraft “owns” the runway until they are clear of it. So, if they are not clear and you need to land, then simply start your go around with full power, carb heat off, flaps to half, then milk up what’s left of the flaps, and climb out at a safe climb out speed. Always move to the RIGHT of the runway so you can see what the lower aircraft is doing. Remember, you could not watch another aircraft if you move to the left, where you always sit. When things are under control you announce on the radio you are going around. You should make the decision to go around as early as possible.

What is critical is “situational awareness”, which means having a good understanding of what is going on around you in the cockpit and outside the cockpit. In your mind, develop a mental picture of where the other aircraft are as far as direction from the airport, distance away, approximate ground speed, and even experience of the pilot (“Cessna 76 Juliet- student pilot”) and if the other aircraft is experiencing some kind of difficulty, such as them seeming to be unfamiliar with the airport or nervous on the radio.

Taking all that into consideration, you are free to extend or shorten your upwind, crosswind, downwind, base, or final approach. It’s imperative that you make not only your required radio calls but if you are unsure of how you might proceed, talk to the other pilot in question and clarify what each of you might do to facilitate a safe landing. Have a conversation with him/her and agree on how each of you will proceed. “S” turns, 360’s, landing long, or on the numbers are also available techniques in your tool bag.

Almost all aircraft are a bit faster than a trainer, jets are a lot faster and can also bring wake turbulence, the exception may be helicopters that are generally a bit slower. Multi-engine aircraft fly a wider 1500’AGL pattern while helicopters fly a tighter 500’ pattern, except when they don’t. Always expect the unexpected and you will not be disappointed. As you know, just because all aircraft are landing on 16 using the radio, does not mean someone will not decide to takeoff or land on 34 without using their radio. Always look three times. In reduced visibility landing lights make you more visible so feel free to use it during the day.

All this is much simpler than I make it sound, so if you have any other clarifications let me know.
 
You can do pretty much anything except turn the wrong way (left, in this case) or descend below 500 AGL on downwind. However, I don't recommend ever doing 360s in the pattern, as that is guaranteed to turn your back on it. And in a Cessna, you can't see where you're turning toward, so extra turning time is not the first choice. Widening the pattern is a possibility, but it makes you more difficult to spot.

My first recommendation would be to slow to 55 KIAS (in a 152) if you haven't already, or 60 with no flaps. 152s are still very controllable with a good margin above stall at those speeds. My second would be to extend downwind, reporting that you have done so over the radio. If someone does something stupid, a final option is to leave the pattern, fly a few miles out (no less!) and then reenter on the 45.

Uncontrolled airports are all about coordinating with other pilots. Feel free to tell another pilot you'll follow him in, or ask another reporting in if he has you in sight. Keep in mind that people who overestimate their traffic spotting and psychic transmission skills are everywhere, and may not communicate on the radio.
 
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MAKG1 said:
However, I don't recommend ever doing 360s in the pattern, as that is guaranteed to turn your back on it.
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I think 'never' is bad advice. Sometimes a 360 is the best course of action. When I had the Bonanza cut right in front of me at Sedona, bailing out to the right and doing a 360 to rejoin the downwind was about the safest course of action I had. He was not paying attention and never saw me.
 
You'll find different airports have different "undocumented" procedures.

One airport I flew to had a chicken farm about 2 miles to the north. Everyone would fly out over it if the pattern had a lot of traffic, call position, then 180 back to enter the downwind on a 45, regulating speed to get spacing right. If traffic was light, we didn't do that.

Technically, that's not required, but it's the courtesy people had worked out. At VKX, because of KADW restricted, we only fly straight in over the marina to RWY 6. If there's a lot of traffic, we go right to garner spacing and re-enter straight in.
 
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Fearless Tower said:
I think 'never' is bad advice. Sometimes a 360 is the best course of action. When I had the Bonanza cut right in front of me at Sedona, bailing out to the right and doing a 360 to rejoin the downwind was about the safest course of action I had. He was not paying attention and never saw me.
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It's an option. But the safest? Wouldn't it have been safer to go a few miles further and enter on the 45? For all you know, there could have been another Bo right behind where you had been, also not paying attention. And you would have cut him off (in a high wing) because that's in your blind spot.
 
MAKG1 said:
It's an option. But the safest? Wouldn't it have been safer to go a few miles further and enter on the 45? For all you know, there could have been another Bo right behind where you had been, also not paying attention. And you would have cut him off (in a high wing) because that's in your blind spot.
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I was already established on the downwind approaching mid-field and he was attempting to enter the downwind by crossing over at mid-field. He was oblivious to my existence.

And to correct my previous post, I actually had to make a left 360 to avoid the collision.
 
I think the biggest lesson is if you aren't comfortable, land somewhere else.
 
I don't like 360s in the pattern. You can loose the traffic picture pretty easy plus you're turning and might hide things with the wings. Slow down, shallow 'S's, leave and come back are my options.

I'd rather the jets/twins get down and out of the way. They don't take long and can't fly my pattern and they do burn a lot more fuel.
 
I'd reiterate that you can always pull the throttle back. A 172/152/etc will fly pretty darn slow if you want it to. Normal pattern speed at ~95-100kts? Pull it back to 70kts and watch the spacing grow. S-tuns are good as well, just make sure you announce it so that the other traffic behind you is aware of your intentions.
 
bobmrg said:
Jets burn lots of fuel at low altitudes and want to spend as little time there as is absolutely necessary. You may think that jet pilots are jerks, but they are dealing with a lot more energy than you are and their patterns (if flown) are far wider. They want to get it on the ground as quickly as possible with little or no maneuvering, tower or no tower.

Bob Gardner
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Great post.......

Once you ride up front in a biz jet, you will understand it completely....

That Gulfstream will suck more fuel on a 10 mile final then you will burn 100LL in 10 years....
 
MAKG1 said:
.... However, I don't recommend ever doing 360s in the pattern, as that is guaranteed to turn your back on it. And in a Cessna, you can't see where you're turning toward, so extra turning time is not the first choice..
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Holy crap!!!! I've had two students do a 360 for spacing (as they were taught) on a checkride and both times the DPE complimented them on
doing a good job.

Both in a Cessna. :eek:

Maybe you teach YOUR students differently? :dunno:
 
FastEddieB said:
Personally, I would not want to extend my upwind, nor fly a wider pattern.

Either could result in being out of gliding range of the airport, which I try to avoid.
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Flew out to the practice area with a student last weekend. 15 miles away from the airport. WELL out of glide range of the airport. :yikes:



We survived. :D
 
MikeELP said:
Flew out to the practice area with a student last weekend. 15 miles away from the airport. WELL out of glide range of the airport. :yikes:



We survived. :D
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Yeah. It's nice to be within gliding distance while in the pattern, but at a tower controlled field, what are you going to do when the tower tells you to extend the downwind? Tell them 'unable'?
 
MikeELP said:
Holy crap!!!! I've had two students do a 360 for spacing (as they were taught) on a checkride and both times the DPE complimented them on
doing a good job.

Both in a Cessna. :eek:

Maybe you teach YOUR students differently? :dunno:
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So, "not the first choice" is equivalent to "prohibited" in your world?

Good thing this isn't about slipping with flaps.
 
MikeELP said:
You said...

"However, I don't recommend ever doing 360's in the pattern..."

Emphasis mine.


Carry on.
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I said "However, I don't recommend ever doing 360's in the pattern."

I have to recommend it because you say so? No. Not going to happen. Neither do I insist everyone obey a recommendation. If I meant to say it should be prohibited, that's what I would have said.

I don't recommend it. Ever. That's well short of prohibiting it. Ever.
 
MAKG1 said:
I said "However, I don't recommend ever doing 360's in the pattern."

I have to recommend it because you say so? No. Not going to happen. Neither do I insist everyone obey a recommendation. If I meant to say it should be prohibited, that's what I would have said.

I don't recommend it. Ever. That's well short of prohibiting it. Ever.
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Yes, but do you recommend that it ever be prohibited? :D
 
asechrest said:
Yes, but do you recommend that it ever be prohibited? :D
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I'm not a fan of prohibiting actions unless truly egregious.

People do this all the time, and it's not hard to watch someone else do it when you are paying attention.

It can be rude to people behind, as it's a blunt instrument and takes a while (especially when students have been told to limit bank in the pattern). But that can be handled with radio messages.

A circling aircraft is easier to spot than one moving in a straight line, at least if at pattern altitude or higher. The problem is that the pilot doing the circling has to depend on everyone else looking out for them. Not a situation I like to be in, as I sure see a lot of pilots out there who aren't looking. It gets real dicey when the circle is big enough to get back into the downwind leg. And it is prohibited to circle away from downwind, by 14 CFR 91.126(b)(1). Honestly, it would be safer in many circumstances to circle the "wrong way."

While circling in the pattern is not something I recommend, it's far safer than landing over someone else's head on the same runway. That's an example of something I do think should be prohibited explicitly, rather than just relying on 91.13, and I see it happen every once in a while. Fortunately, the worst result so far has been a near miss.
 
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Funny y'all read comments on a forum like they're FAR regulations...
 
MAKG1 said:
I'm not a fan of prohibiting actions unless truly egregious.

People do this all the time, and it's not hard to watch someone else do it when you are paying attention.

It can be rude to people behind, as it's a blunt instrument and takes a while (especially when students have been told to limit bank in the pattern). But that can be handled with radio messages.

A circling aircraft is easier to spot than one moving in a straight line, at least if at pattern altitude or higher. The problem is that the pilot doing the circling has to depend on everyone else looking out for them. Not a situation I like to be in, as I sure see a lot of pilots out there who aren't looking. It gets real dicey when the circle is big enough to get back into the downwind leg. And it is prohibited to circle away from downwind, by 14 CFR 91.126(b)(1). Honestly, it would be safer in many circumstances to circle the "wrong way."

While circling in the pattern is not something I recommend, it's far safer than landing over someone else's head on the same runway. That's an example of something I do think should be prohibited explicitly, rather than just relying on 91.13, and I see it happen every once in a while. Fortunately, the worst result so far has been a near miss.
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I was joking. I'm not a fan of 360s in the pattern at non-towered airports.
 
I consider a 360 turn as an acceptable method of spacing (I've had a tower make me do one on final once). That said, I like to be where people expect to see me. A 360 in the traffic pattern, of an uncontrolled airport, puts you outside that zone. I think, given the aircraft you were flying, slowing down and/or delaying your turn to base would be a better choice//I would reserve that maneuver for times when I'm inbound and the airport appears too busy to enter the pattern with reasonable spacing...IMHO...
 
FlySince9 said:
I consider a 360 turn as an acceptable method of spacing (I've had a tower make me do one on final once). That said, I like to be where people expect to see me. A 360 in the traffic pattern, of an uncontrolled airport, puts you outside that zone. I think, given the aircraft you were flying, slowing down and/or delaying your turn to base would be a better choice//I would reserve that maneuver for times when I'm inbound and the airport appears too busy to enter the pattern with reasonable spacing...IMHO...
Click to expand...

Agreed 100%.... Extending the downwind leg is far safer then doing a 360...IMHO..
 
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