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Fly-Fla

Fly-Fla

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Fly-Fla
I have a trip for work to the DC area, Crystal City in particular in a few weeks and thought I would fly myself. I'm a relatively low hour pilot so I was not looking to get too complicated with the SFRA and thought I could fly into Leesburg JYO. I've been studying the charts and between the class B and the restricted area it's a little confusing. I see I need the FAA class, and see the ingress code to squawk. I would be VFR, use flight following and travel up early on a Sunday morning. So with flight following I assume I would be cleared into the class B, although I'm a little confused on where it starts versus the restricted area. Also, if ATC gives me a transponder code for flight following do I still need to change to the ingress code for JYO, I'm assuming not. Also, anyone know how JYO would be for a week of tie down and transportation all the way to Crystal City. I would be willing to take the metro part way if there is one anywhere near Leesburg but I'm assuming a long expensive cab ride is in my future and probably easiest. Sorry to be long, all help appreciated.
 
Just a thoght: fly into Stafford (KRMN) and rent a car from Avis for $150 for a week, drive to your Crystal City Hotel.
 
Fly-Fla said:
I have a trip for work to the DC area, Crystal City in particular in a few weeks and thought I would fly myself. I'm a relatively low hour pilot so I was not looking to get too complicated with the SFRA and thought I could fly into Leesburg JYO. I've been studying the charts and between the class B and the restricted area it's a little confusing. I see I need the FAA class, and see the ingress code to squawk. I would be VFR, use flight following and travel up early on a Sunday morning. So with flight following I assume I would be cleared into the class B, although I'm a little confused on where it starts versus the restricted area. Also, if ATC gives me a transponder code for flight following do I still need to change to the ingress code for JYO, I'm assuming not. Also, anyone know how JYO would be for a week of tie down and transportation all the way to Crystal City. I would be willing to take the metro part way if there is one anywhere near Leesburg but I'm assuming a long expensive cab ride is in my future and probably easiest. Sorry to be long, all help appreciated.
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Take the online SFRA course.mit will answer all of your questions, and it's required within 60nm of DCA.

Talking to Potomac Tracon does not give you a bravo clearance. You need to specifically ask for it. Fortunately you won't need it flying into JYO.
 
From a ground transpo perspective, flying into College Park (CGS) is easier... you just walk to the Metro.
 
hook_dupin said:
From a ground transpo perspective, flying into College Park (CGS) is easier... you just walk to the Metro.
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No joy, required FRZ clearance, otherwise ideal.

Where exactly do you have to go? I've never been to JYO or stepped out of an airplane at RMN to give a recommendation, because you will need ground transportation and somewhere to sleep and eat.

Nevermind, I just saw you said Crystal City.

Anyone meeting you?
 
I'd consider flying to KHEF. The VRE train is a short walk from the airport and goes to Crystal City.
 
Depending on the time of day you arrive, KRMN (Stafford) and a rental car may be the much better choice from the south. It's outside the SFRA & FRZ, and the time spent going to another airport can be used to sit in I-95 traffic.

Alternatives: KHEF (Manassas): yes there is the VRE train service to Crystal City & DC. But it runs primarily early in the AM, with one train in the afternoon. Outside of those hours, it's a rental car and I-66 traffic (note that I-66 from the Beltway to Crystal City is carpool only during morning rush). The drive from HEF to Crystal City can be as long as the drive from RMN (morning rush excepted as I-95 is a parking lot).

Anything inside the FRZ (CGS, W32, VKX) all require vetting prior to entry. And that requires a prior trip with visits to the fingerprint (SIDA) office at DCA and a trip to the FSDO. Not viable for first trip. W32 and VKX require cab or car, but are arguably closer than CGS.

Leesburg will require a trip around the SFRA and Dulles Class B - you'll add enough time in air travel to make up for the time on I-95 from KRMN. And you'll have a toll road from Leesburg to Crystal City. No bueno.

Good luck whatever your choice is... and have fun if you decide to fly.
 
Leesburg has a gate for VFR entry and exit,by far easiest way to get into the DC area. I have a daughter in Arlington and use Leesburg all the time. You can't use college park without prior approval.
 
frfly172 said:
Leesburg has a gate for VFR entry and exit,by far easiest way to get into the DC area. I have a daughter in Arlington and use Leesburg all the time. You can't use college park without prior approval.
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And you have provisions to lay your head and likely a ride too. He needs both and I assume he doesn't want to pay an arm and a leg.

I'm going to solicit advice from the DCPilots board.

I'll get back to you
 
How much access to your plane do you need during your stay? Is the plane just interstate transportation? Or will it be entertainment while you're here?

BTW- fuggedabout a hangar if you're thinking that.
 
wsuffa said:
Alternatives: KHEF (Manassas): yes there is the VRE train service to Crystal City & DC. But it runs primarily early in the AM, with one train in the afternoon. Outside of those hours, it's a rental car and I-66 traffic (note that I-66 from the Beltway to Crystal City is carpool only during morning rush). The drive from HEF to Crystal City can be as long as the drive from RMN (morning rush excepted as I-95 is a parking lot).
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The VRE Manassas line has one week day reverse flow train in the morning and afternoon, that might work if the flight is timed appropriately. The station within walking distance of Dulles Aviation at HEF is Broad Run. Inbound trains run between 5:05am and 7:50am, as well as 2:45pm and 5:10pm. Plan your trip accordingly and that's a real fast cheap and easy way to get to Crystal City from Manassas. See the schedule here:http://www.vre.org/service/systmmp.htm

At JYO, another option, after 7/262014, is to take a cab to the new Weile (pronounced Wheel-ee) Road Metro station from Leesburg Airport. That's about 17 miles or so; not a cheap ride but certainly less than cabbing it all the way to Crystal City.
 
In terms of airports, 2W5 is going to be the best choice for Crystal City.

The process for the FRZ approvals is changing though, and within days (if not now) applicants will be able to do the whole thing in their home city. So, if he's got a few weeks to play with he might want to look into that. I can find out later today what stage all that is at.

National Harbor is right across the river and there's lots there in terms of lodging and stuff to do but none of it is cheap. If he can stand the freight though, I'd recommend that or staying in Crystal City. The latter has a bunch of lodging and the advantage of Metro all over the place.

sbf
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New information and best response sofar
 
Jaybird180 said:
New information and best response sofar
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With all respect to Stan, National Harbor is a dump and I would avoid that cesspool at all costs. If the OP is looking for somewhere to stay with more character than Crystal City, Alexandria is the obvious choice.

I've heard rumors about the simplification of the FSDO portion of the FRZ vetting process, but I'll believe it when I see it. Thankfully you no longer have to go to DCA to be fingerprinted.

As far as DC area non-FRZ airports are concerned, Maryland (2W5) is pretty sleepy and easy to get in and out of. Not a ton of transportation options, though.
 
Brad Z said:
As far as DC area non-FRZ airports are concerned, Maryland (2W5) is pretty sleepy and easy to get in and out of. Not a ton of transportation options, though.
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Not a ton is an understatement, not any is more like it.

My preferred airport is still IAD. Best ground transportation options available. No FRZ required. HEF and GAI are the nearest non-heavy metal places outside the FRZ (though HEF is better for Crystal City).
 
I suppose VRE goes near KEZF, too.
 
GeorgeC said:
I suppose VRE goes near KEZF, too.
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Sorta. The VRE is walking distance to HEF, with Dulles Aviation being closer to VRE than APP Jet Center. EZF is a longer trek. If I were after VRE, I'd choose HEF.
 
Fly-Fla said:
I have a trip for work to the DC area, Crystal City in particular in a few weeks and thought I would fly myself. I'm a relatively low hour pilot so I was not looking to get too complicated with the SFRA
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There is nothing 'complicated' about the SFRA. You call AFSS from your last fuel stop and file a flight plan that has to be -1hr/+2hrs correct for your ETA. You file that plan from a fix (gate) just outside the SFRA to your airport of intended landing. When you get within 10nm or so of the fix, you call up potomac approach 'Bugsmasher 123AB near FLUKE at 3000ft'. They give you a squawk, and once you enter it they tell you 'transponder observed' and you continue to your airport. In the dark past, there have been problems raising them on the radio, in the 5 years I have been flying around here, it has never been an issue.

As for the DC airport options I am familiar with (in absence of a FRZ PIN):

KGAI
$12 or so cab ride to the Shady Grove metro. From there anything in metro territory is reachable.

KHEF
VRE is a commuter service. IF you arrive in the morning, good. If you arrive outside of the morning, not good. Hertz has a staffed office at APP jet center. I have never dealt with Dulles aviation, I hear they are fine. Two options to head to Arlington. Via 66 which is clogged up during rush hour or via 95 which is clogged up pretty much anytime :D . My plane is at HEF, unless I have to head out there on a friday afternoon, traffic is not an issue.

2W5
New runway 2/20 3900ft, no taxiway until next year. Very limited ramp space at this time, typically tied down in the grass. Check notams for fuel. Ground transportation options are:
- Pre-arrange with Enterprise out of La Plata,MD to drop a car (works best if you are one of their premier customers)
- Waldorf Yellow Cab or Walorf Silver Cab. If they know its a good trip, they will come out to the 'West County'.
- A pm to me to see whether I am around to run you to the metro.

HEF and a rental car is going to be the least hassle unless you happen to arrive between 6:30am and 9 or try to fly out between 3 and 6pm.
 
Thanks for all the information. I have to stay in Crystal City, my office is there and they are setting up the hotel. I don't mind paying a bit for a cab since the office will reimburse me, but probably not more than a ride from Dulles would cost. I'll have to look at these other airports everyone pointed out. My goal was ease of navigating the SFRA for my first time flying into the DC area.
 
Fly-Fla said:
Thanks for all the information. I have to stay in Crystal City, my office is there and they are setting up the hotel. I don't mind paying a bit for a cab since the office will reimburse me, but probably not more than a ride from Dulles would cost. I'll have to look at these other airports everyone pointed out. My goal was ease of navigating the SFRA for my first time flying into the DC area.
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Really, dont sweat the SFRA. Do the course, file via AFSS as 'SFRA flight plan' and land at the airport that works best for you.

Dulles would be the shortest cab ride to Crystal city (32miles). If landing between all the big iron intimidates you, HEF is a really easy towered airport to deal with. It would be a longer cab ride (39miles). The slightly more economical and less traffic dependent option is a cab to the Vienna metro (24 miles) and then metro from there.
 
Fly-Fla said:
Thanks for all the information. I have to stay in Crystal City, my office is there and they are setting up the hotel. I don't mind paying a bit for a cab since the office will reimburse me, but probably not more than a ride from Dulles would cost. I'll have to look at these other airports everyone pointed out. My goal was ease of navigating the SFRA for my first time flying into the DC area.
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Then you can close your eyes and throw a dart at a chart. As long as it doesn't land in the FRZ you're good.
 
Seems to me that the smartest thing may be to just take Delta to DCA. While in town, book some time with a CFI to get smart on the SFRZ. Then you can go anywhere you want on the next trip.
 
GeorgeC said:
I suppose VRE goes near KEZF, too.
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It's 2.2 miles from EZF to the train station. The station at HEF is separated by the commuter parking lot from the airport.
 
weilke said:
As for the DC airport options I am familiar with (in absence of a FRZ PIN):
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Again, you omitted IAD. You can get a Metro bus to Rosslyn and on to L'Enfant Plaza, busses to West Falls Church Metro, any number of taxi, rental car, and shuttle van service...
 
flyingron said:
Again, you omitted IAD. You can get a Metro bus to Rosslyn and on to L'Enfant Plaza, busses to West Falls Church Metro, any number of taxi, rental car, and shuttle van service...
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Isn't IAD one of the busiest airports in the country? For a low time pilot that will be an adventure, my understanding is that GA is mixed in with the big iron.( no side rwy for small guys like BWI )..could get hairy at times.
 
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Flymeariver said:
Isn't IAD one of the busiest airports in the country? For a low time pilot that will be an adventure, my understanding is that GA is mixed in with the big iron.( no side rwy for small guys like BWI )..could get hairy at times.
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IAD just made my todo list. Parallel runways, high traffic, and right in my area!

Thanks for the idea. I'll have to find out what the landing fee is tho
 
Jaybird180 said:
IAD just made my todo list. Parallel runways, high traffic, and right in my area!

Thanks for the idea. I'll have to find out what the landing fee is tho
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Make sure to visit the air and space museum :). Thats why I'm willing to eat the fees and fly in. ($43 for a C172 for all fees including overnight per Landmark)
 
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flyingron said:
Again, you omitted IAD. You can get a Metro bus to Rosslyn and on to L'Enfant Plaza, busses to West Falls Church Metro, any number of taxi, rental car, and shuttle van service...
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I did not omit it. I listed the options I am familiar with.

You are a veteran pilot, you have been flying into IAD since it was an underutilized white elephant out in the boonies and know the taxiway map by rote. Sure, for you, IAD is the best option for travel into DC. He is a low time private pilot who seems intimidated by the prospect of having to fly into the SFRA, why in the world do you think that a solo trip to IAD at the end of a long flying day would be a good idea ??
 
Flymeariver said:
Isn't IAD one of the busiest airports in the country? For a low time pilot that will be an adventure, my understanding is that GA is mixed in with the big iron.( no side rwy for small guys like BWI )..could get hairy at times.
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Not really. Controllers at Potomac are great, traffic at IAD is down a bit ( bunch of reasons, including the dump that is the United concourse), and there are 3 N/S runways and one E/W. Really won't be any trouble getting in there - better if you can avoid UA push times, though you may have to taxi a bit (especially if you get 1L/19R runway). As Class B's go, it's not bad.

And yes, it'll cost more than HEF for FBO and ground services. Landmark is better than $ignature.

weilke said:
I did not omit it. I listed the options I am familiar with.

You are a veteran pilot, you have been flying into IAD since it was an underutilized white elephant out in the boonies and know the taxiway map by rote. Sure, for you, IAD is the best option for travel into DC. He is a low time private pilot who seems intimidated by the prospect of having to fly into the SFRA, why in the world do you think that a solo trip to IAD at the end of a long flying day would be a good idea ??
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Not Ron, but I used to like going to Class B's when I got the chance. Especially on business trips. Ultimately, it comes down to the timing of his trip as to which might be the better choice. Come in late at night, and I'll take IAD because it's more likely services will be open.
 
So I watched the big FAA training course and have my certificate in hand. I did some internet searches and couldn't find the information about obtaining my PIN from somewhere outside DC so I'll stay outside the FRZ for this trip. I may try to get that while I'm in DC so I'm set for next trip. So I guess I'm thinking about landing at either Manassas or 2W5. I don't want a rental car because I'll have to pay to park it all week at the hotel. I'm guessing a cab from 2W5 to Crystal City would be in the $50 range which I can live with. Would either of these airports be an advantage in any way, availability and or price of tie down space, easier to fly into, ease of getting said cab into Crystal City, etc? Thanks for the help on this one, I feel much less intimidated by the airspace now.
 
College Park with the metro stop sounds good. I'm just wondering if it's worthwhile to jump the FRZ hoops if one flies to DC only once every other year. How long is a FRZ permit valid before you have to jump the hoops again?
 
NoHeat said:
College Park with the metro stop sounds good. I'm just wondering if it's worthwhile to jump the FRZ hoops if one flies to DC only once every other year. How long is a FRZ permit valid before you have to jump the hoops again?
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It's good forever.
 
Jaybird180 said:
IAD just made my todo list. Parallel runways, high traffic, and right in my area!

Thanks for the idea. I'll have to find out what the landing fee is tho
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Why bother? If you're going to go to a class B airport, make it a trip worthwhile...somewhere like PHL, PIT, CVG, or CLT. All of these are not too far away, have reasonable fees and are GA friendly.
 
Jaybird180 said:
IAD just made my todo list. Parallel runways, high traffic, and right in my area!

Thanks for the idea. I'll have to find out what the landing fee is tho
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Oldish blog post but your idea got me to look this up - says fees were under $40 in 2011 (this was with a fuel purchase)

http://www.110knots.com/ifr-flight-to-washington-dulles-international/

I worked in DC for almost 2 years before getting my cert, commuting from Ohio. I am going to get vetted for the DC3 even if I never really need it :). Plan on doing it this summer.

I worked in Reston so really IAD would have been better for me anyway.

Great question and great thread!
 
Jaybird180 said:
IAD ... I'll have to find out what the landing fee is tho
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It is surprisingly affordable for a small piston. Roughly $40 if I recall correctly, and the fee for overnight parking was not that scary, either. Just the same, I chose nearby KHEF instead - no landing fee, cheaper parking, and similar rental car availability. If you buy gas at KHEF an AirBoss card gives a $0.50 / gal discount.
 
Fly-Fla said:
I don't want a rental car because I'll have to pay to park it all week at the hotel.
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Check with Hertz. You may be able to rent a car at HEF and drop it off either at your hotel or at DCA and not pay a drop-off fee.

I'm guessing a cab from 2W5 to Crystal City would be in the $50 range which I can live with.
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I live a mile from 2W5. My cab rides from DCA are about $70 (it used to be $55 when the cabbys ticked off the prior mayor and the DC cab fares were below cost).

Would either of these airports be an advantage in any way, availability and or price of tie down space, easier to fly into, ease of getting said cab into Crystal City, etc? Thanks for the help on this one, I feel much less intimidated by the airspace now.
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HEF is towered with full-service FBOs that are attended late into the night. Tiedowns, hangars, fuel in trucks. Hertz has a staffed office right on the field. 5 approaches including ILS and LPV.

2W5 is a sleepy strip in the backwoods. 9-5, you'll find Gil the owner wrenching on some planes or his son hanging around to get you fueled and tied down. Currently, both approaches are 'NA' as they lead to a runway that doesn't exist. Ground transport options are limited. It'll be a different place 3-4 years down the line once the runway is done and there is a full service FBO.
 
Brad Z said:
Why bother? If you're going to go to a class B airport, make it a trip worthwhile...somewhere like PHL, PIT, CVG, or CLT. All of these are not too far away, have reasonable fees and are GA friendly.
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I have already done CLT. IAD is local, so why not. PHL is on my list of runs for a cheesesteak. For the other 2, I'd have to have a reason to go there. KATL is on my list as well.

OP- If we can coordinate, I live 15mins from 2W5 and may be able to assist with ground transport. PM me.
 
NoHeat said:
College Park with the metro stop sounds good. I'm just wondering if it's worthwhile to jump the FRZ hoops if one flies to DC only once every other year. How long is a FRZ permit valid before you have to jump the hoops again?
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CGS is one of the DC-3 requiring FRZ privileges.
 
Fly-Fla said:
So I watched the big FAA training course and have my certificate in hand.
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BTW, the old course #55 has been replaced with course #405 (ALC-405: DC Special Flight Rules Area) effective last month. If you took the old course, you're still good, but if not, you must take the new course to qualify.

I did some internet searches and couldn't find the information about obtaining my PIN from somewhere outside DC
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Doesn't yet exist.
 
Flymeariver said:
Isn't IAD one of the busiest airports in the country? For a low time pilot that will be an adventure, my understanding is that GA is mixed in with the big iron.( no side rwy for small guys like BWI )..could get hairy at times.
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It's down about #23 on the list. If you can't handle busy, avoid the pushes (the time when the hub-and-spoke airline system schedules all their arrivals/departures at the same time). Even if you try to arrive during the push, you're likely to just be held rather than forcing you into a busy situation.

I was based at Dulles for years and I still go into there a couple of times a year. It's not usually an issue. It's more intimidating once you're on the ground frankly. My wife coordinates bringing in 50+ aircraft including gyrocopters, ultralights, and one year a Curtiss pusher replica.

My favorite place to hold is over the PCT tracon building.

PCT: You're going to have to hold for a few minutes we're in the middle of the arrival push.
27K: Any particular place that would be convenient for you?
PCT: Nah, anywhere you like.

PCT: Navion 27K, Ident.
27K 27K, holding directly over the TRACON building.
PCT: Radar contact, directly over the TRACON, proceed direct IAD, expect runway 1C.

If he's going into the SFRA anyway, Dulles is actually EASIER in my opinion.
 
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