Magic Smoke in the cockpit over LM, Pulse Ox readings, Baron 58s

Jim K said:
Will you fit in a Baron?
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It's been a year or twelve since I've been in one (55), but I didn't recall it being cramped. This would be a driving factor.
And you can wear a monocle.
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:rofl:
And a top hat of course.

Just don't forget about us little people when you move up to beechtalk.
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What was your name again?
 
WillFly4Food said:
Oooh, I’ve had one of those USB plugs fail on me with smoke. Took a minute to figure out where the smoke was coming from. When I pulled the plug, it was so hot it burnt my hand. Watch those things.
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I have too! No visible smoke but I smelled something for several days before I figured out where it was coming from.
 
Jim K said:
Will you fit in a Baron? I sat in my hangar neighbor's bonanza and was folded up like a pretzel with the yoke hitting my thighs. Made me appreciate my 32 that much more.

A pa34 would be more comfortable. I feel like the beech would have heavier gear and be more suitable for operating out of 6y9. Also faster. And you can wear a monocle.

Just don't forget about us little people when you move up to beechtalk.
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My husband is 6’2” and he fit fine in our 55.
 
There's fitting, and there's having spacious comfort. :D
 
kaiser said:
T303 Crusader.. but mostly so I can be jealous of you.
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The T303 is a harder sell for me. I've not flown one but I have sat in it. That was another one of those scenarios where Cessna tried to make everything as lightweight as possible and do something novel (think the H2AD) with somewhat predictable results (again, think the H2AD). The current president of the Twin Cessna Flyer (Twin Cessna owners association) has a T303 and he loves it. I've sat in it, and I will say it has some cool features, and is certainly more "modern" than some of the other options. But they are lightweight airframes with the sorts of maintenance issues that you tend to see where weight is reduced and thus strength is compromised.

Prices on them are rather silly because they're somewhat rare or unusual, the engines have some differences to them (the 250 HP 520s that weigh less than normal 520s were part of the design goals), and they're not all that fast. Plus then you have the maintenance of a turbo system.

I wouldn't discourage someone from buying one of them per se, but I think a 58 Baron is a much better fit for Ed.
 
EdFred said:
I felt fine. I know when I've gone to 14k I was NOT feeling ok. Of course this PulseOx is just off the shelf from Walgreens so who knows how accurate it is. Also from what I understand since CO has oxygen in it, it will read as having oxygen in the blood.


I was only at 6500 when the magic smoke came out on the outbound flight and was reading 95.
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The cool thing about hypoxia is that you feel fine. Do the altitude or hypoxic chamber if you haven't. They make you do math while hypoxic and everyone thinks they're doing great. Then when you come back to earth you realize that everything you've written down is actually gibberish.
 
Lindberg said:
The cool thing about hypoxia is that you feel fine. Do the altitude or hypoxic chamber if you haven't. They make you do math while hypoxic and everyone thinks they're doing great. Then when you come back to earth you realize that everything you've written down is actually gibberish.
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The cool thing about physiology is not everyone has the exact same reaction at the exact same altitudes.
 
EdFred said:
The cool thing about physiology is not everyone has the exact same reaction at the exact same altitudes.
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Absolutely true. And at 89% you may not have had any effects. But relying on doing math in your head, and checking that math with the same head, is unlikely to be reliable.
 
EdFred said:
The cool thing about physiology is not everyone has the exact same reaction at the exact same altitudes.
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You just have to be careful EdFred. What is ok one day may not be the next, at least that's what I've learned at seminars. I try to get on oxygen above 8k. I live pretty much at sea level.
 
PaulS said:
You just have to be careful EdFred. What is ok one day may not be the next, at least that's what I've learned at seminars. I try to get on oxygen above 8k. I live pretty much at sea level.
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9500 is not an uncommon altitude for me, and I've never had any issues over the past 2 decades of flying. It was just the first time I had a PulseOx and wanted to see what it was reading.
 
EdFred said:
9500 is not an uncommon altitude for me, and I've never had any issues over the past 2 decades of flying. It was just the first time I had a PulseOx and wanted to see what it was reading.
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It might have just been a bogus reading. Mine is often in the 80s until I wiggle the thing around on my finger until it gets good contact.
 
Rushie said:
It might have just been a bogus reading. Mine is often in the 80s until I wiggle the thing around on my finger until it gets good contact.
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At one point it said 68, and I know that wasn't the case because I would have been unconscious. Either that or I have mutant genes.
 
Yes, finding a good one is tough. Finding a cheap one is easy.
 
EdFred said:
The cool thing about physiology is not everyone has the exact same reaction at the exact same altitudes.
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The other cool thing about physiology is blood oxygen tension at altitude can change as we get older, as can our response to it...
 
steingar said:
The other cool thing about physiology is blood oxygen tension at altitude can change as we get older, as can our response to it...
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Probably not over the course of 3 weeks, though.
 
Haven't owned a 58. Have maintained a dozen or so in my prior maintenance shop, and flown another two dozen or so as instructor.

Since I don't meet the criteria to comment on opex you can expect, I guess I'll join the other peanuts in the gallery and recommend some ridiculous alternatives for you. Get a Twin Bonanza. :p
 
I'd say maintaining one would also qualify as adequate input.
 
I haven't flown in either, but I have in both of their single-engine cousins. Would a Seneca be more comfortable than a Baron?
 
iamtheari said:
I haven't flown in either, but I have in both of their single-engine cousins. Would a Seneca be more comfortable than a Baron?
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Maybe, but I'm only gaining 12-15kts over the current ride.
 
EdFred said:
So I had magic smoke in the cockpit over the middle of Lake Michigan Friday. Continued flight to 6Y9.

PulseOx reading at 9500MSL dipped to 89 (flight yesterday) normally is around 95 to 98 at 800MSL
I was still doing math in my head, just adding up numbers on the MVP-50. Didn't seem to be any slower on the calcs than normal. What should it be kept above?

Might be in the market for a Baron 58 NA model with the 520s, and ONLY THIS MODEL. No 55s, no 58P, no TC, no 300hp version. Only a straight 58. What can someone who OWNS/OWNED one tell me about them from mx/operation standpoint?
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a 58P flies like a Lear...
 
My pulse oximeter reads about 3pts lower on my pointer finger than my pinky. Is it too tight?
 
Opex and other mind-noise comments then, from recollection at the shop:

Expect annual to be in the 10-12k range. Somewhere about 2.5x a Comanche. (we maintained a few PA24s too, so maybe that will help calibrate for your local mx costs :) )

IO-520C engine doesn't really have any big gotchas. Expect a top overhaul midlife because continental has their head up their empennage and can't get valve guides right. On flight test, look for at or near 27.5gph on takeoff. This is about 1gph more than the book "m0 procedure" maximum and part of the GAMI religion that I personally follow. 29.5gph if it's 550 equipped.

58s should get 190kt at 25gph or 180kt at 22. Aim for GAMIjectors and she'll do LOP well down to 80dLOP. Sweet spot for this motor is about 8-10K MSL.

These often have cracked spar webs and doublers (far more common than the 55s which don't solve the angel flight mission). Look into the AD history. It's about 6 grand per "corner" now to add the doubler.

Since ergonomics came into the conversation, I find 58s and 36s to have less headroom than 35s and 55s. You should definitely try it on to make sure it works.

Useful loads are ALL OVER THE MAP on these. Start there on your prebuy/due diligence. A light baron is worth waiting for, some are missing 400-600#, either from ridiculous mods, upgrades, bad repairs, or ??? -- early 1970s barons seem to be the lightest and worth a premium to me that the market doesn't value.

I assumed your aversion to the 300hp version is because you don't want a 1984+ 58 (I agree), but I would say the 3-blade-prop IO-550 STC (D'Shannon Raw Power and certain Colemills) are worthwhile. The 4-blade prop colemills are worth avoiding as the props are unique and spendy to OH.

I would jack the thing up on prebuy and verify the gear rigging via the ABS Gear Rigging Guide. They don't go out of rig very easily but a decade or two of neglect can find some real dangerous configurations or need of expensive parts.

If you're giving it an eyeball, make sure the flaps (when up) are flush with the bottom of the fuselage, and the ailerons when neutral are flush with the flap AND wingtip. If not, look for damage history or serious rigging faults.

Manual cowl flaps are a bonus if so-equipped. The little motors are unobtanium and the silly ram-air only gives like 2kts. (scoops look cool though)

Tell your insurer they're way easier to land than a PA24 so you should be able to skip any checkout requirements :D

Expensive/irritating jobs on these:

Starter adapter replacement/overhaul
Control cable replacement when they get gritty/beyond pressure-lube-able
Anything under the dash honestly. It's 10# of ish in a 5# panel
Front door hinges and door latch rigging
Cabin step attach fittings run loose, the step can corrode internally, and the entire floor area where the step attaches can just get sh*tty. Check for weakness and rust and prior welds on the step.
There is an SB for the RH flap ribs cracking because of walmart nation types jumping on the flap when boarding. about 4 grand to reksin the flap.
Fuel bladders! (4 of em!)

Worth doing:

Replacing the "live fuel line" FF gauge with a Shadin and remote transducers. Fuel lines in the cockpit can chafe and ruin your day
Lord shimmy damper instead of the OG beech
Get a redline sidewinder tug for the thing and just keep it in the nose. Pushing Barons around on the ramp with the little blue cessna bar sucks and is the opposite of fashion. :D
Plan on a continental "M0" fuel setup twice per TBO cycle. The fuel controller is a rube goldbergian nightmare of failure and nonsense that goes out of rig quickly.

"Otherwise, Barons really are trouble-free!" :eek2: :D
 
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That's the info I was looking for. I figured on about 2.5 - 3x the flying budget per year on the Baron as the Comanche assuming hours would be the same.
 
I was telling Teresa today about your problem with having too much money in retirement.

Then I got to thinking...what about a turboprop? What does it cost to operate a TBM or M500? Obviously the purchase price is an order of magnitude higher, but that doesn't matter too much unless interest rates take off. I assume the hourly cost is a lot higher, but I really have no idea.
 
Jim K said:
I was telling Teresa today about your problem with having too much money in retirement.

Then I got to thinking...what about a turboprop? What does it cost to operate a TBM or M500? Obviously the purchase price is an order of magnitude higher, but that doesn't matter too much unless interest rates take off. I assume the hourly cost is a lot higher, but I really have no idea.
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When Dave Siciliano was still frequenting the board he went from Bonanza -> P-Baron -> King Air -> Jet (Citation I think)
From what I recall, it was about a 3x amortized cost increase per hour for each step up.
 
So would that mean a single turboprop would be about 1.5 the opex of a piston twin? Maybe 2x of a non-pressurized twin?

I don't really even understand how to calculate the hourly reserves for a turboprop. I guess there's inspections every 2500 hours or so that can be $10,000-50,000 depending on what they find? Is there a life limit? What's required for the annual inspection? @Ted can you shed any light on this for me? I'm sure Garretts and PT-6s are different animals, but estimating costs has to be similar?
 
EdFred said:
So I had magic smoke in the cockpit over the middle of Lake Michigan Friday. Continued flight to 6Y9.

PulseOx reading at 9500MSL dipped to 89 (flight yesterday) normally is around 95 to 98 at 800MSL
I was still doing math in my head, just adding up numbers on the MVP-50. Didn't seem to be any slower on the calcs than normal. What should it be kept above?

Might be in the market for a Baron 58 NA model with the 520s, and ONLY THIS MODEL. No 55s, no 58P, no TC, no 300hp version. Only a straight 58. What can someone who OWNS/OWNED one tell me about them from mx/operation standpoint?
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"Magic Smoke" is legal in Portland Oregon. I'm not sure about Michigan though and probably not a good idea at lower O2 sats.
 
schmookeeg said:
Yes. the problem is the 10-20X CapEx. :)
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yeah, but you get a good chunk of that back when you're done with it. So long as you can borrow money for less than inflation...it's an investment :confused:
 
Jim K said:
yeah, but you get a good chunk of that back when you're done with it. So long as you can borrow money for less than inflation...it's an investment :confused:
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Homie don't borrow money no mo.
 
Jim K said:
So would that mean a single turboprop would be about 1.5 the opex of a piston twin? Maybe 2x of a non-pressurized twin?

I don't really even understand how to calculate the hourly reserves for a turboprop. I guess there's inspections every 2500 hours or so that can be $10,000-50,000 depending on what they find? Is there a life limit? What's required for the annual inspection? @Ted can you shed any light on this for me? I'm sure Garretts and PT-6s are different animals, but estimating costs has to be similar?
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A few data points: I once came to understand that something like a C90 is 60k for the first hour, then all you pay for is fuel and gotchas. Also, there is a biz around here somewhere that has a couple PC12s that rent for 1100/hr.

A guy can dream :D
 
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