Lying on medical

midlifeflyer said:
Then there are those where the FAA goes further and, in addition to revoking all certificates and ratings, refers the case to the DOJ for criminal prosecution.
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I know this is true, and absolutely not condoning dishonesty on the medical, but the few cases I've heard of which went as far as prosecution have all involved commercial pilots in Part 121/135 ops. Are there cases where lowly PPs have faced prosecution for a lie on the medical (without other aggravating factors like a related accident)?

I have nothing to fear on this count - I made my own first medical a damn sight more complicated by being ruthlessly honest about stuff that isn't on any database the FAA could ever access and in hindsight might not strictly have had to be disclosed anyway.
 
tiger said:
I know this is true, and absolutely not condoning dishonesty on the medical, but the few cases I've heard of which went as far as prosecution have all involved commercial pilots in Part 121/135 ops. Are there cases where lowly PPs have faced prosecution for a lie on the medical (without other aggravating factors like a related accident)?
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I'm not aware of any and agree with you that it would be unlikely for a plain vanilla Part 91 pilot without aggravating factors.
 
timwinters said:
It would be hard, but why reinvent the wheel every two years filling out that **** when you already did it once?
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Yeah, I know what you mean. I have 3-4 boxes checked in the "have you ever" question, all of them PRNC. But I need to always go back every.single.time to make sure I check exactly the same boxes and not an extra by mistake.
 
tiger said:
I know this is true, and absolutely not condoning dishonesty on the medical, but the few cases I've heard of which went as far as prosecution have all involved commercial pilots in Part 121/135 ops. Are there cases where lowly PPs have faced prosecution for a lie on the medical (without other aggravating factors like a related accident)?

I have nothing to fear on this count - I made my own first medical a damn sight more complicated by being ruthlessly honest about stuff that isn't on any database the FAA could ever access and in hindsight might not strictly have had to be disclosed anyway.
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Yes; a number of Northern California private pilots were criminally prosecuted for medical certificate application falsifications during the 2003-2005 "Operation Safe Pilot" witch hunt.
 
Clip4 said:
C. National Driving Record Registry - DUI and drag convictions
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What??! DRAG convictions? This country is going to H E double hockey stick.

Of course you did write AND, so this is DUI while dressed in drag, or is it DUI while drag racing?

"Ocifer, I know I'm wearing a dress, but I'm only buzzed"
 
Ravioli said:
What??! DRAG convictions? This country is going to H E double hockey stick.

Of course you did write AND, so this is DUI while dressed in drag, or is it DUI while drag racing?

"Ocifer, I know I'm wearing a dress, but I'm only buzzed"
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Bad eyes, should read drug conviction, even a minor misdemeanor grass conviction qualifies as an automatic 30 day license suspension in some states.
 
Stan Cooper said:
Yes; a number of Northern California private pilots were criminally prosecuted for medical certificate application falsifications during the 2003-2005 "Operation Safe Pilot" witch hunt.
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You mean when they all lied on their medical applications? That "witch hunt"?
 
mryan75 said:
You mean when they all lied on their medical applications? That "witch hunt"?
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Yes. That's the one. Tiger asked, I answered. There was a lot of criticism of OSP in the press at the time, including very critical articles in EAA Sport Aviation and AOPA Pilot.

Take a Medical, Go to Jail – A troubling new development in medical certification by Peter Axelrod and James F. Pokorney. EAA Sport Aviation, February 2006

Pilots and Privacy by John S. Yodice. AOPA Pilot, January 2006.

Social Security numbers and pilots’ privacy by John S Yodice. AOPA Pilot, November 2006.

Operation Safe Pilot and the Privacy Act of 1974 – Routine Use or Government Abuse? by Michael L. Dworkin. NTSB Bar Association News, Winter 2005
 
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Kenny Phillips said:
It was a witch hunt only because the government broke the law in garnering evidence.
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If it was a witch hunt it certainly caught a lot of witches. These people were defrauding the taxpayer. They were taking money out of our pockets and lying about it. The pain and suffering were those of us paying benefits to these fraudsters. The government was held accountable, and as you can see, the perpetrators of the fraud itself take no responsibility for their actions. It's despicable.
 
mryan75 said:
If it was a witch hunt it certainly caught a lot of witches. These people were defrauding the taxpayer. They were taking money out of our pockets and lying about it. The pain and suffering were those of us paying benefits to these fraudsters. The government was held accountable, and as you can see, the perpetrators of the fraud itself take no responsibility for their actions. It's despicable.
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Many of those prosecuted were not flying while collecting disability benefits and were, in fact, disabled while they were collecting benefits. They weren't defrauding Social Security and they weren't defrauding the FAA while on disability. A case could be made that some, after terminating disability benefits and returning to work, defrauded the FAA by not revealing their past disabilities on subsequent medical applications, but in at least some of those instances there were very clear contradictions (mixed signals) within the FAA regarding eligibility for medical certification of those with the condition that caused the past disability.

The "investigation" clearly violated the privacy act, and in the plea agreements reached in some of the prosecutions the airmen did take responsibility for their actions.

It's not as black and white as you seem to assert.
 
midlifeflyer said:
t might eve be something tiny like giving inconsistent answers to one of the questions in group 18.
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Curious about this. I had a condition that was autoimmune in origin, but affected my nervous system, and I was treated by a neurologist. It's been PRNC, and the FAA was OK with it, but using this as an example. How much does it matter which box in 18 is checked if the full explanation is disclosed to the AME? If one checks one box on one medical, and a different box on the next medical, for the same condition, will that be a red flag, again assuming details are disclosed?
 
Anonymous said:
Curious about this. I had a condition that was autoimmune in origin, but affected my nervous system, and I was treated by a neurologist. It's been PRNC, and the FAA was OK with it, but using this as an example. How much does it matter which box in 18 is checked if the full explanation is disclosed to the AME? If one checks one box on one medical, and a different box on the next medical, for the same condition, will that be a red flag, again assuming details are disclosed?
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You are in better shape if the medical app is corrected in the doc's explanation form, but there's no guarantee of that.
 
I'm worried about my next medical (as I now want to fly something that holds more than two people). I've never had anything major happen to me, but I'm also at the point where I'd have little patience with a delay. Maybe I shouldn't read these threads!
 
Kenny Phillips said:
I'm worried about my next medical (as I now want to fly something that holds more than two people). I've never had anything major happen to me, but I'm also at the point where I'd have little patience with a delay. Maybe I shouldn't read these threads!
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If you don't lie and you can fog a mirror, you're fine.
 
Globalpilot said:
My understanding is that the FAA cannot see your personal medical records without your permission so how are guys getting caught
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That's a great point. How does HIPAA factor into the FAA world.. I sort of assumed that as a gov agency they have police power to look at whatever they want, but does HIPAA actually give them that right? In a much older post we have this:
denverpilot said:
Listing all visits is because FAA has you sign that you give them access to the insurance databases. They’ll know you went and you didn’t report it. That can bring additional scrutiny.
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But I'm not sure that's true... based on this:
murphey said:
"Occasional common illnesses such as colds or sore throats that resolved;
Routine dental, eye, and FAA periodic medical examinations; or
Consultations with your employer-sponsored employee assistance program (EAP) unless the consultations were for substance abuse or unless the consultations resulted in referral for psychiatric evaluation or treatment."
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and backed up right here: https://medxpress.faa.gov/MedXPress/Help/Instructions.htm
upload_2018-10-15_17-9-32.png


... so I suppose one could then have a debate between what is a "occasional common illness" <- what if you had some dental work done, got prescribed some hard drugs for it.. ? is it "falsification" to not report that? Root canals and dental work are relatively common. The guys who got caught were doing some aggressive and blatant lying, to various gov agencies... like was posted above, for most generally healthy people I doubt there is some guillotine axe waiting to come down.. but maybe I'm wrong?

Tarheelpilot said:
There is no such thing as a good faith mistake. You are assumed to be lying.
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I mean, maybe in practice, but it says right on the medXpress form "intentional falsification" - 5 years is a long-ish time between medicals.. an accidental omission I would not consider intentional falsification. Sure, if you are taking some heart medicine for several years and withhold that, then yeah, you're an idiot. But got prescribed morphine once 5 years ago for dental work?

What are the common protocols if a disparity is discovered? An immediate indictment, or a letter asking for an explanation? Or does it depend?

Do most people keep a log of all their doctor visits? Genuine curiosity questions here. I got very paranoid about this last time I filled my medical out and asked Blue Cross full a report of the medical visits in the last 5 years, which apparently was not that easy for them.. but I did end up receiving it.. and was ultimately told by a CFI and the AME not to worry about common cold visits, etc., which is consistent with what medXpress says
 
Tantalum said:
That's a great point. How does HIPAA factor into the FAA world.. I sort of assumed that as a gov agency they have police power to look at whatever they want, but does HIPAA actually give them that right? In a much older post we have this:


But I'm not sure that's true... based on this:

and backed up right here: https://medxpress.faa.gov/MedXPress/Help/Instructions.htm
View attachment 68170

... so I suppose one could then have a debate between what is a "occasional common illness" <- what if you had some dental work done, got prescribed some hard drugs for it.. ? is it "falsification" to not report that? Root canals and dental work are relatively common. The guys who got caught were doing some aggressive and blatant lying, to various gov agencies... like was posted above, for most generally healthy people I doubt there is some guillotine axe waiting to come down.. but maybe I'm wrong?


I mean, maybe in practice, but it says right on the medXpress form "intentional falsification" - 5 years is a long-ish time between medicals.. an accidental omission I would not consider intentional falsification. Sure, if you are taking some heart medicine for several years and withhold that, then yeah, you're an idiot. But got prescribed morphine once 5 years ago for dental work?

What are the common protocols if a disparity is discovered? An immediate indictment, or a letter asking for an explanation? Or does it depend?

Do most people keep a log of all their doctor visits? Genuine curiosity questions here. I got very paranoid about this last time I filled my medical out and asked Blue Cross full a report of the medical visits in the last 5 years, which apparently was not that easy for them.. but I did end up receiving it.. and was ultimately told by a CFI and the AME not to worry about common cold visits, etc., which is consistent with what medXpress says
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Per the ACA, diagnosis codes are not protected. So they have access to your diagnosis codes.
 
Tantalum said:
That's a great point. How does HIPAA factor into the FAA world.. I sort of assumed that as a gov agency they have police power to look at whatever they want, but does HIPAA actually give them that right? In a much older post we have this:


But I'm not sure that's true... based on this:

and backed up right here: https://medxpress.faa.gov/MedXPress/Help/Instructions.htm
View attachment 68170

... so I suppose one could then have a debate between what is a "occasional common illness" <- what if you had some dental work done, got prescribed some hard drugs for it.. ? is it "falsification" to not report that? Root canals and dental work are relatively common. The guys who got caught were doing some aggressive and blatant lying, to various gov agencies... like was posted above, for most generally healthy people I doubt there is some guillotine axe waiting to come down.. but maybe I'm wrong?


I mean, maybe in practice, but it says right on the medXpress form "intentional falsification" - 5 years is a long-ish time between medicals.. an accidental omission I would not consider intentional falsification. Sure, if you are taking some heart medicine for several years and withhold that, then yeah, you're an idiot. But got prescribed morphine once 5 years ago for dental work?

What are the common protocols if a disparity is discovered? An immediate indictment, or a letter asking for an explanation? Or does it depend?

Do most people keep a log of all their doctor visits? Genuine curiosity questions here. I got very paranoid about this last time I filled my medical out and asked Blue Cross full a report of the medical visits in the last 5 years, which apparently was not that easy for them.. but I did end up receiving it.. and was ultimately told by a CFI and the AME not to worry about common cold visits, etc., which is consistent with what medXpress says
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I thought the form only asks for three years. In any event, the AETNA website gave me everything I needed. And I put everything on the form; better safe than sorry.
 
I had a situation early in my flying career where I couldn't remember what I had reported previously on my medical. I asked the examiner about it and he said to write "previously reported, no change" in the comments box. I always write this now, but I also keep better records.
 
cmsuav8r said:
I had a situation early in my flying career where I couldn't remember what I had reported previously on my medical. I asked the examiner about it and he said to write "previously reported, no change" in the comments box. I always write this now, but I also keep better records.
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"PRNC" is the "unable" of medical applications.

Funny, but that ended up being the most time-consuming thing on my BasicMed application - 25+ years of PRNC had to be redisclosed.
 
Actually from time to time my AME asks me about some of my PRNCs. They're allowed to do that.
 
flyingron said:
Actually from time to time my AME asks me about some of my PRNCs. They're allowed to do that.
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Yeah, and then I have to try to remember. "PRNC, what's the question? Uhh, oh, yeah, maybe that was my appendectomy?"

I keep copies of all my old medicals - I need to go back and highlight every time I added something so that I can remember exactly what it was that I PRNCed.
 
timwinters said:
Wouldn't it be nice if, when you opened up Med Expres, all the information that you had included in your last application was there for reference. It sure would eliminate a lot of phone calls and digging through files for me.

Gosh, one might consider that to be...umm...a good service!

I know, I know... Wish in one hand and chit in the other and see which fills up fastest...
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I personally just take photos of each screen that I fill out on the medexresd website. When it comes time to fill it out again for a renewal, I have all the records I need on my phone.
 
Back when it was all paper, my AME used to hand you a copy of your previous medical when he gave you the blank form to fill out.
 
flyingron said:
Back when it was all paper, my AME used to hand you a copy of your previous medical when he gave you the blank form to fill out.
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Mine never did. And since I want to fly things bigger than a breadbox, I don't even remember what I put down in the past. At least I have some items to report since my last 3rd class.
 
Is there someway that I can get a copy of my last Medxpress application? So that I don't make an un intentional error.
 
Bob Rod said:
I personally just take photos of each screen that I fill out on the medexresd website. When it comes time to fill it out again for a renewal, I have all the records I need on my phone.
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Would be nice if when we log back in for another medical the sight would bring up your previous application.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Keep in mind, it takes 6-8 weeks to obtain them. And you will get a copy of everything they have on you.
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Also keep in mind that the FAA is shut down except for essential services. Getting copies of old records is not essential (even the N-number registry is offline AFAIK). So in addition to the 6-8 weeks, you have to wait it out.
 
Mooney Fan said:
Would be nice if when we log back in for another medical the sight would bring up your previous application.
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Yes it would. But it doesn't due to government determined security reasons.
 
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