Lycoming Rant

[ARFlyer]

We’re approaching 5 months and still no engine. My latest annoyance, almost anger, is that Lycoming waited TWO WEEKS past the original ship date to drop me an email via the distributor that went something along the lines of this:

“Your engine is indefinitely delayed due to our 24v EIS Mag not being approved by the FAA. However, if you switch back to standard mags we can ship the engine soon. You can choose to stay with the EIS mag. However, estimated FAA approval is at the earliest May.”

Uhhhh W.....T......F....... Lycoming. Why did you sale me an engine design that WAS NOT APPROVED YET?

It’s not the distributors fault as they’re just the middle man and have been extremely helpful. I even inquired to Lycoming about honoring my order and switching the mags out once the EIS mag is approved. The answer was a resounding NO unless we never start the engine.

So now I have switched the engine to standard mags and I HOPE it ships next week.

 

[frfly172]

Good luck, the engine manufacturers seem to have adopted a who cares attitude, where else are you going to go. Prices are starting to increase at an alarming rate.

 

[mondtster]

I've posted in other threads about this, but this seems to be Lycoming's standard operation. Promise something will be built and shipped at a specific time (the usual claim seems to be 4 weeks) then you'll get told it's 4 weeks out every time you call until you get tired of waiting or they actually decide to build it.

Hopefully they mean what they say and that your engine will actually be shipped next week.

 

[Doc Holliday]

http://dgaircraft.com/

Don George is top shelf.

 

[pnancoz]

Back in 2019 I waited 5 months for an engine from Lycoming. I originally was told 10-12 weeks. On the promised ship date, I contacted Lycoming to find out that it was pushed back 4 weeks. This happened two other times where I contacted them on the promised ship date to find that they were extending it 2-4 week. Luckily I spoke to a sympathetic Lycoming sales rep at Oshkosh. He spoke to a VP at Lycoming that managed to expedite the final inspections on my engine and got it shipped out. I'm fairly sure if I didn't meet that sales rep, I'd still be waiting for my engine.

 

[Dan Thomas]

Uhhhh W.....T......F....... Lycoming. Why did you sale me an engine design that WAS NOT APPROVED YET?

It's not an unapproved engine. Just the EIS mags. Or, more likely, the approval is to use those already-approved mags on your particular engine model.

But they should have given you the option of the old-school mags a lot earlier. They likely figured, at the time you ordered the engine, that approval was only days away, but we're talking government here....

 

[Bell206]

It's not an unapproved engine. Just the EIS mags.

The EIS mags were approved last year. There are several Service Instructions out on their install. Perhaps there's an issue on the OPs specific engine model?

So now I have switched the engine to standard mags

What engine model did you order?

 

[MooneyDriver78]

As a general rule, take whatever estimate they give you and multiply it by 2.

 

[wsuffa]

http://dgaircraft.com/

Don George is top shelf.

I'll echo that. When my engine developed a case crack, DG had a rebuilt one on the shelf and ready to shop. I bought it, did a swap, then sold the core to another owner. Bottom line was the same cost as having mine rebuilt, and I saved the downtime.

The DG engine ran great over 10+ years that I owned the plane, with minor work needed on the accessories (exhaust system and external fuel pump) over that 1000+ hours.

 

[ARFlyer]

The EIS mags were approved last year. There are several Service Instructions out on their install. Perhaps there's an issue on the OPs specific engine model?

What engine model did you order?

We ordered a O-360-A4M for our 172 to replace our A4A. The word I got from the distributor is the issue they got told is with our 24v electrical system. They said Lycoming or the FAA discovered that the 24v system doesn’t play nice with the EIS mag onboard computer.

 

[Bell206]

We ordered a O-360-A4M for our 172 to replace our A4A. The word I got from the distributor is the issue they got told is with our 24v electrical system. They said Lycoming or the FAA discovered that the 24v system doesn’t play nice with the EIS mag onboard computer.

Is your current -A4A installed under an STC? Then you selected a -A4M to get the Slick mags? And then you elected to replace the Slick mags with the Lycoming EIS mags?

I’m not seeing how the 24v problem is Lycoming’s issue as their approval docs don’t cover the airframe connection side. This is also stated in the Lycoming EIS service instruction.

And as a side note, some aircraft systems can’t use a Slick mag either vs a Bendix, so I wonder if the issue is at the A to M swap initially? There seems to be a part of the story missing here other than just a “24v problem.”

 

[ARFlyer]

Is your current -A4A installed under an STC? Then you selected a -A4M to get the Slick mags? And then you elected to replace the Slick mags with the Lycoming EIS mags?

I’m not seeing how the 24v problem is Lycoming’s issue as their approval docs don’t cover the airframe connection side. This is also stated in the Lycoming EIS service instruction.

And as a side note, some aircraft systems can’t use a Slick mag either vs a Bendix, so I wonder if the issue is at the A to M swap initially? There seems to be a part of the story missing here other than just a “24v problem.”

Current engine is a A4A with two Slick mags with the Air Plains 180 STC. The engine we ordered is a A4M as that’s the current STC engine produced.

When we ordered the distributor told us Lycoming is switching to the EIS mag on the IC Mag. So they gave us a EIS Engine order form and we ordered a A4M with EIS which gave us a EIS Engine order number.

Last week I got a short email asking me what voltage was my electrical system. I found that odd but replied anyway. The distributor quickly called and said that our electrical system is not approved for the current EIS mag. Something about feedback shorting issues with the computer on the EIS mag. So they said we can either switch to Slick mags or Lycoming will put the engine in storage until the 24v issue is worked out with the FAA. Which would be May at the earliest.

This whole order has been a giant mess. It took the Sales VP of Lycoming to approve the order. Lycoming is extremely unhappy about how the engine wasn’t converted correctly 20 years ago from a A4J to a A4A because the data plate is scratched off.

 

[Bell206]

This whole order has been a giant mess.

You may want to take a step back and look at a few other things also other than just the order. First, did you get confirmation from Air Plains that you can use the -A4M as an alternate to your –A4A under your revision of the STC?

Even though the 4M maybe “the current STC engine” it doesn’t always mean you can simply use it. Some STCs require an additional EO to use a newer component on an older STC drawing.

When we ordered the distributor told us Lycoming is switching to the EIS mag on the IC Mag. So they gave us a EIS Engine order form and we ordered a A4M with EIS which gave us a EIS Engine order number.

If I had to guess this is where your issue started. Something doesn't sound right with this part.

FYI: If Lycoming plans to produce new engines with the EIS installed they usually use another model variant designation. Just like the –A4M with Slicks. So if they do use a different variant, that will complicate your situation even more especially with the STC.

The distributor quickly called and said that our electrical system is not approved for the current EIS mag.

As I mentioned earlier, Lycoming does not approve the airframe side. The engine installer does, or in your case, since the engine was installed under an STC, then it would fall to Air Plains. So as above, if the Air Plains STC for your S/N aircraft does not include the EIS mags then you may want to contact Air Plains before doing anything else.

For reference, per existing Lycoming docs, if you install one EIS mag, the engine side is a minor alteration per the SI. The airframe side can either be a minor alteration or a major alteration depending on how the installer determines it. If you install two EIS mags, the engine side is again a minor alteration, however, the airframe side is considered a major change to type design and would require the engine installer, not Lycoming, to get an STC or similar approval in order to install the engine in that airframe.

So, if Lycoming is actually having “24v” problems it’s with the engine side approval and not the airframe side approval.

 

[Kevin Holbrook]

I was under the impression that the Lycoming EIS was SureFly hardware with custom firmware. And I have a SureFly on my Lycoming with a 24 volt electrical system. Over 100 flawless hours. Something doesn’t seem right.

 

[ARFlyer]

You may want to take a step back and look at a few other things also other than just the order. First, did you get confirmation from Air Plains that you can use the -A4M as an alternate to your –A4A under your revision of the STC?

Even though the 4M maybe “the current STC engine” it doesn’t always mean you can simply use it. Some STCs require an additional EO to use a newer component on an older STC drawing.

Our STC paperwork includes both variants. Air Plains said to just cross out the circled A4A and circle A4M on the master STC. They actually don’t understand why it’s a A4A as ours has Slick Mags when it was converted anyway from a A4J.

We tried to overhaul but every overhaul shop I called wouldn’t touch the engine with a 10 foot pole due to the defaced data plate and the strange log entries when it was placed on our aircraft.

Air Plains said they are doing the EIS mag as an approved option. They don’t understand why Lycoming said the 24v EIS mag isn’t approved. I also called SureFly who didn’t understand this issue but said they couldn’t talk about the Lycoming variant.

I thought changing engines was just a quick phone call, some paperwork, and the mechanic swapping it out a few weeks later.

 

[Bell206]

They don’t understand why Lycoming said the 24v EIS mag isn’t approved.

And neither do I. I finally got the Lycoming EIS SI to down load. There's no voltage restriction and even lists 24v backup requirement. Perhaps send your distributor a copy of the SI and have them explain why the 24v is already approved on the engine side.
https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/SI1569A_Installation_of_Lycoming_EIS.pdf

I thought changing engines was just a quick phone call, some paperwork, and the mechanic swapping it out a few weeks later.

Sometimes it is. Depends on the paperwork.

We tried to overhaul but every overhaul shop I called wouldn’t touch the engine with a 10 foot pole due to the defaced data plate and the strange log entries when it was placed on our aircraft.

This has gone downhill to the point Lycoming apparently put a Do Not Overhaul out for our Serial Number? They want the engine back.

Well, I guess I don't need to look into that part any more. Modifying a A4J to a A4A didn't seem to follow the normal path. Defaced data tags are not a good thing. FYI: If Lycoming wants the engine back be sure they give you a core credit in writing or cash in hand.

 

[ARFlyer]

Well, I guess I don't need to look into that part any more. Modifying a A4J to a A4A didn't seem to follow the normal path. Defaced data tags are not a good thing. FYI: If Lycoming wants the engine back be sure they give you a core credit in writing or cash in hand.

It’s had a strange history.

The engine logbook starts with it being installed in a Sundowner as a A4J with 1800TT. Then it was overhauled by Lycoming at 2300TT. That overhaul entry was defaced when it was converted to a A4A. It was removed from a Sundowner, overhauled, converted to a A4A, and placed on our aircraft.

To me it sounds like the Sundowner went belly up.

 

[PaulMillner]

I was under the impression that the Lycoming EIS was SureFly hardware with custom firmware. And I have a SureFly on my Lycoming with a 24 volt electrical system. Over 100 flawless hours. Something doesn’t seem right.

My recollection is that SureFly had a bug in the 24 volt version, long since corrected. Perhaps the bug fix hasn't caught up with the Lycoming variant yet? Is the firmware really any different? Or did Lycoming just turn off the advance, and put a seal on the door to the DIP switches?

Paul

 

[ARFlyer]

Great news!!!! Engine unexpectedly arrived yesterday with the EIS mag installed. Now it’s time to start swapping it out and installing my JPI 900 and CIES fuel senders.

 

[ARFlyer]

My recollection is that SureFly had a bug in the 24 volt version, long since corrected. Perhaps the bug fix hasn't caught up with the Lycoming variant yet? Is the firmware really any different? Or did Lycoming just turn off the advance, and put a seal on the door to the DIP switches?

Paul

Bad News!!! The 24v EIS mag Lycoming installed on the new engine was a pumpkin from the beginning. It will kill the engine if you have the alternator turned on. Lycoming said it requires a software update to fix a bug which they only do in house. That was apparently the reason which started this thread. So they have to send us a new EIS mag which hopefully will come in the next few weeks according to them.

Until then the plane is on its 7th week of being a hanger queen...

 

[MBDiagMan]

I am awaiting Lycoming parts for a rebuild and it’s getting really ridiculous. A ew days ago, one of my mechanics said “ I think it’s been so long I’ve forgotten how it goes back together.” Its a heck of a deal when people are waiting at the door with money to spend and you have nothing to sell them.

I really wonder what’s going on beyond the COVID.

 

[Salty]

I am awaiting Lycoming parts for a rebuild and it’s getting really ridiculous. A ew days ago, one of my mechanics said “ I think it’s been so long I’ve forgotten how it goes back together.” Its a heck of a deal when people are waiting at the door with money to spend and you have nothing to sell them.

I really wonder what’s going on beyond the COVID.

I had the same problem 3 years ago when I did my overhaul. Nothing to do with COVID. At that time they had a production issue with lifters that dried up the supply. It’s always something.

 

[Omalley1537]

I am awaiting Lycoming parts for a rebuild and it’s getting really ridiculous. A ew days ago, one of my mechanics said “ I think it’s been so long I’ve forgotten how it goes back together.” Its a heck of a deal when people are waiting at the door with money to spend and you have nothing to sell them.

I really wonder what’s going on beyond the COVID.

People have found out they can sit on their duff and collect “free” money that meets or exceeds their pre-Covid pay.

I’ll stop there before I go full spin zone.

 

[mondtster]

I had the same problem 3 years ago when I did my overhaul. Nothing to do with COVID. At that time they had a production issue with lifters that dried up the supply. It’s always something.

Yep. There always seems to be a story and they’ll string you along until they feel like making whatever you’re after. It always seems to be a 4 week wait whenever you check on the progress. They’ve been playing this game for years.