Lycoming O-320 overhaul with AM cylinders?

RyanB

RyanB

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Our flight school just got a 172M engine overhaul. The Lycoming 320 came back with millenium cylinder caps instead of ones that say lycoming? Whats the difference? If the cylinders are millenium the engine isnt really a lycoming is it? Maybe a dumb question as i do not know much about this. Thank you.
 
The millennium cylinders are allegedly better than the lycoming ones...it's just a different top not bottom, so it is still a lycoming engine
 
Ryanb said:
Our flight school just got a 172M engine overhaul. The Lycoming 320 came back with millenium cylinder caps instead of ones that say lycoming? Whats the difference? If the cylinders are millenium the engine isnt really a lycoming is it? Maybe a dumb question as i do not know much about this. Thank you.
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Can you say "after market cheap parts"

$908 bucks WoW
 
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That comment from Tom-D should be all anyone needs to validate Superior parts. :-)
 
I like Milleniums almost as much as Titans. My opinion, but dang, my planes sure have worked good. Cheers.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
I think the dataplate is the means by which any engine mfg is designated.
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David is correct. Your Lycoming engine may have Millennium cylinders, a Marvel-Schebler carburetor, Slick or Bendix Magnetos, Champion spark plugs, a Sky-Tec starter etc., but it is still a Lycoming engine even with those non-Lycoming parts. You just have to limit your choice of parts to those approved by the FAA to be used on that engine.
 
Ron Levy said:
David is correct. Your Lycoming engine may have Millennium cylinders, a Marvel-Schebler carburetor, Slick or Bendix Magnetos, Champion spark plugs, a Sky-Tec starter etc., but it is still a Lycoming engine even with those non-Lycoming parts. You just have to limit your choice of parts to those approved by the FAA to be used on that engine.
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The difference is Lycoming never made mags, carburetors or starters under their brand/label. They did make cylinders.


Jim R
Collierville, TN

N7155H--1946 Piper J-3 Cub
N3368K--1946 Globe GC-1B Swift
N4WJ--1994 Van's RV-4
 
N3368K said:
The difference is Lycoming never made mags, carburetors or starters under their brand/label. They did make cylinders.
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...and they still do. Nevertheless, using those FAA-approved subs for the original Lycoming cylinders, officially it's still a Lycoming engine. Same as putting Horner wing tips on your Cherokee -- it's still a Piper.
 
Stewartb said:
I like Milleniums almost as much as Titans. My opinion, but dang, my planes sure have worked good. Cheers.
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Always heard good stuff about titans, my 185 came with them, so far so good.
 
James331 said:
Always heard good stuff about titans, my 185 came with them, so far so good.
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The sad thing is you can get a good or junk set from any of the manufacturers, OEM or aftermarket, almost a luck of the draw deal as who is making what this week.:(
 
My experience with Millennium cylinders is not positive, but also not catastrophic. The ones I had were also before they got bought out, so who knows.
 
So why are these installed to lycomings at overhaul? Are they just cheaper? I would think you would want only lycoming factory parts on an engine?
 
They are cheaper, and some people believe they are equal or better quality. On cylinders for Lycomings, I disagree.
 
Ryanb said:
So why are these installed to lycomings at overhaul? Are they just cheaper? I would think you would want only lycoming factory parts on an engine?
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Superior Air Parts and ECI both produce fully approved replacement cylinders for Lycoming and Continental aircraft engines. There's a market since cylinders are consumable items. You can Google Millennium and Titan cylinders to read the respective manufacturer's sales literature.

Ask owners about airplane engines and many will complain that we're forced to use 75 year old technology. Enter a couple of new parts manufacturers that promote better engineering and production and the same guys who complain about old technology will defend using that old technology. Ain't aviation a hoot?
 
Please explain the cutting-edge technology that ECI and Superior employ? The cylinders still have the same rotten combustion chamber, intake and exhaust ports, etc.
 
Ryanb said:
So why are these installed to lycomings at overhaul? Are they just cheaper? I would think you would want only lycoming factory parts on an engine?
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It is becoming more and more difficult to find all Lycoming or All TCM parts to rebuild an engine, most are now farmed out to contractors like ECI and Superior.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Please explain the cutting-edge technology that ECI and Superior employ? The cylinders still have the same rotten combustion chamber, intake and exhaust ports, etc.
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The problem I see year after year is erosion of the exhaust ports and rusted off exhaust studs. Lycoming being the biggest offender.
 
The biggest advantage? ECI's use of nicasil. Steel barrels are okay for some users but for the majority of guys like myself the Titan Nickel cylinders offer a tremendous advantage. Without question they'd be my cylinder choice today. Flow matched and weight balanced at no extra charge. 5 year corrosion warranty from first start. Simple break-in. I like it. Secondarily? Better flow and better valve seats. Best demonstration? A Pponk 0-520 with factory cylinders is 265hp. With Millenniums or Titans it's 275hp. Same compression using the proper TSIO-520 cylinders. Third? With TCM the valve geometry is better. Fewer burned E valves likely because of better contact between rocker arm and valve. Less side loading. That summarizes my own experiences in my own airplanes. Actually I currently have only one plane and it has Millenniums. One run limited by AD. But they sure have been good. Exponentially better than the crap factory cylinders they replaced or the ones before those or the ones before those. I'd be okay running TCM cylinders if they got "fixed" by Ly-Con or an equivalent performance shop. Those perform well for friends. We all form our strongest opinions from our own experiences. Take mine for what it's worth.
 
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I agree we all have opinions based on our experiences, hence why I ask. I know that the 310 was a few knots faster following the double overhaul with all ECis Titans instead of mostly factory Continentals, but that was also replacing 2100 hour engines with 0 compression with new engines and great compression. My decision for ECi on the 310 was because I thought they had the best product based on my research, and a number of overhaul shops (most notably Western Skyways) agreed with me.

On Lycomings (my Aztec, specifically) I brand new Millenniums, at 650 SMOH all 6 on that engine had low compression and needed overhauled or replaced. I bought 6 factory Lycomings new and the engine ran noticeably smoother and seemed to make more power. So, go figure.
 
How long ago with the Millenniums? I thought it was interesting how long they stayed out of the TCM 520 cylinder market. They started strong and then disappeared. They're producing them again now but they were absent for several years.
 
ECI cyl are either steel or Nickel-steel-cabide. No Nikasil or Silicon alloy(maybe some trace amount) like found in BMW or Porsche.
 
Stewartb said:
How long ago with the Millenniums? I thought it was interesting how long they stayed out of the TCM 520 cylinder market. They started strong and then disappeared. They're producing them again now but they were absent for several years.
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We're probably talking 10 years ago that they were produced. So, I wouldn't say my experience there is necessarily current given all the changes there.
 
Same result either way.

The Nikasil® brand of nickel composite plating has been specified by many OEM's for use in high performance internal combustion engines including the Porsche 911, the Porsche aircraft engine, BMW automobiles and motorcycles, the Jaguar automobile and NASCAR race engines.
In view of the outstanding performance that has been achieved by the CermiNil process in aircraft cylinder repair and the success of the Nikasil® process in new up‐market engines, ECi has incorporated this technology into the design of the TITAN cylinder. The TITAN cylinder features a new through‐hardened forged barrel with a Nickel+CarbideTM coated bore.
While the sequence of operations to coat a new cylinder barrel with the Nickel+Carbide process is different than coating a used barrel with the CermiNil process, the resultant coating in both cases is identical.
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Source: http://www.eci.aero/pdf/titanbooklet.pdf
 
Stewartb said:
Same result either way.



Source: http://www.eci.aero/pdf/titanbooklet.pdf
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Not - even - close. C <> Si. Which is why you can't buy a Nikasil jug, and if you had one and it was removed it cannot go back into service from any vendor. ECI will scrap it instantly and sell you a new steel/Nickel steel. I guess if you took one off and honed it yourself then put new rings on and used it that will work.
 
Has anyone noticed how they affect reliability of the engine?
 
Ryanb said:
Has anyone noticed how they affect reliability of the engine?
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I haven't seen cylinders to impact reliability unless the heads fall off. Low compression can require some work, but I don't necessarily consider low compression "reliability."
 
Tom-D said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikasil

ECI cylinders do not use this process.
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image.jpg
 
Tom-D said:
Their cylinder repair process. weren't we talking new cylinders?
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Says they incorporated that technology into the Titan cylinders.

3rd paragraph, under features.
 
James331 said:
Says they incorporated that technology into the Titan cylinders.

3rd paragraph, under features.
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I believe you are confusing the two different process.

Nikasil is short for Nickel Silicon Carbide. Silicon carbide is a very hard ceramic (much harder than steel) that can be dissolved in nickel.

I don't believe the two are the same.
 
I mentioned nicasil because most guys accept that to be slang for a coated cylinder. The internet police have made case to differentiate details that are unimportant in the context of this thread. The fact is that ECI offers a nickel barrel and it works great. Ted asked what tech advances I liked about cylinders and I truly think the nickel barrel is the top improvement. Bottom line? I'm happy that there are a couple of aftermarket suppliers. A competitive marketplace is better for consumers than a sole source marketplace.
 
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Stewartb said:
I mentioned nicasil because most guys accept that to be slang for a coated cylinder. The internet police have made case to differentiate details that are unimportant in the context of this thread. The fact is that ECI offers a nickel barrel and it works great. Ted asked what tech advances I liked about cylinders and I truly think the nickel barrel is the top improvement. Bottom line? I'm happy that there are a couple of aftermarket suppliers. A competitive marketplace is better for consumers than a sole source marketplace.
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ECI nickel cylinders are great for those who do not fly very often.
 
Stewartb said:
I'm happy that there are a couple of aftermarket suppliers. A competitive marketplace is better for consumers than a sole source marketplace.
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Oh hell yes, Me too, it has gotten us out of the old re-chromming cylinders and the catastrophic cylinder failures of those days.
 
Tom-D said:
Oh hell yes, Me too, it has gotten us out of the old re-chromming cylinders and the catastrophic cylinder failures of those days.
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Yep, although the Aftermarket could have done a better job as well. The quality control problems that have lead to the plethora of ADs out there isn't a very good showing for the industry.
 
Ron Levy said:
...and they still do. Nevertheless, using those FAA-approved subs for the original Lycoming cylinders, officially it's still a Lycoming engine. Same as putting Horner wing tips on your Cherokee -- it's still a Piper.
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They sure do, but since Lycoming never made the accessories such as mags, spark plugs or carburetors, there's no way to replace those items with a Lycoming brand, whereas there is a choice for cylinders. Consequently, you example wasn't really a valid comparison.


Jim R
Collierville, TN

N7155H--1946 Piper J-3 Cub
N3368K--1946 Globe GC-1B Swift
N4WJ--1994 Van's RV-4
 
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