Lycoming hit with $26M verdict!!!

[Alexb2000]

I wouldn't blame Lycoming for just closing up shop. The liability is too much for their piddling revenues.

No kidding. If you're going to get nailed for a old 7,000 hour aircraft with a 2,600 hour motor that you didn't build the carburetor for, about a 100 different mechanics worked on, no traceable history, etc. AND no sign that engine failure even contributed to the crash. Then pretty much anyone can expect to take a bite out of you. I'd get out if I was unable to beat this on appeal.

 

[supernovae]

The whole thing is absurd. How does any amount of money help with the bereavement process? How does having a lump sum of money to buy stuff with help me and does it really honor those that perished? The only value I see is the punishment of those responsible, and from what I have read it at least appears that Lycoming wasn't.

Is 26 million dollars really going to hurt a 12.2 billion dollar company? How else would you propose to sue a company in court and penalize them for negligence that results in the loss of life?

The death of a family member should not be cause for a financial bonus unless they choose to leave us something. Even with that I would gladly give back the meager money I received from the passing of my Dad to have him back.

If there is negligence involved, why shouldn't there be a monetary fine?

In closing as Ed said, we choose the value of life when we select the amount of our life insurance.

And that's all I have to say about that!!

Really? This is pretty sad on so many fronts because as pilots our life insurance probably excludes coverage if we're killed flying..

 

[Ted]

Lycoming is part of Textron which is a 12.2 billion dollar company..

You said that already. What's your point?

Your views on human life and finances don't coincide with reality. Based on your view, we should all be flying around in G-Vs. After all, our lives are of infinite value.

 

[supernovae]

No kidding. If you're going to get nailed for a old 7,000 hour aircraft with a 2,600 hour motor that you didn't build the carburetor for, about a 100 different mechanics worked on, no traceable history, etc. AND no sign that engine failure even contributed to the crash. Then pretty much anyone can expect to take a bite out of you. I'd get out if I was unable to beat this on appeal.

If what you say is true, they will win on appeal.. That is the beauty of the system.

Believe it or not.. it does work. I'm really intrigued in what all the haters suggest to replace it if they hate it so bad..

So if negligence is involved in something that causes either mass amounts of destruction or the loss of life, how else would we add "teeth" to our laws or "teeth" to civil cases if you can't sue for "punishable" amounts?

BTW, not saying its perfect either..

 

[EdFred]

You can't put a price on it

But you do put a price on it. If you're gone today, how much are you worth? Whatever you're insured for.

 

[ateamer]

These cases are being decided by the bottom 10% of society. It won't matter how good the lawyers are. Cases are being decided by people who aren't smart enough to get out of jury duty.

Have you ever been on a jury or worked in a courtroom? Four years of my law enforcement career has been as a bailiff. Juries are comprised of many types of people. Lots of them are people employed full-time who are away from work. When the trial is only going to be a few days long, judges generally don't grant a hardship excuse. I have seen jurors who were young college students, doctors, attorneys, a retired FBI agent, a retired LAPD homicide division commander, unemployed people, truck drivers, pilots, and lots of other people. It truly does take all types.

 

[tmyers]

The costs will be passed to you and me, the end users. If the costs can't be passed on to us they will close. Simple economics.

I did address punishment for responsibility and I certainly did not serve on the jury, but there seems to be evidence that the Pilot screwed the pooch with this one. The Lawyers are going to realize the pilots family doesn't have any money so lets go after Lycoming, they have money.

My life insurance does cover me flying because I sought out coverage that would help my family carry on if I screw the pooch some day. My policy gives my wife or kids about 5 years income to replace what I would normally bring in. That the only reason I have it. It cost me more but then I took it upon myself to take care of myself and not expect someone else to do it for me.

 

[EdFred]

If what you say is true, they will win on appeal.. That is the beauty of the system.

Believe it or not.. it does work. I'm really intrigued in what all the haters suggest to replace it if they hate it so bad..

So if negligence is involved in something that causes either mass amounts of destruction or the loss of life, how else would we add "teeth" to our laws or "teeth" to civil cases if you can't sue for "punishable" amounts?

BTW, not saying its perfect either..

Make it so companies are only liable for a maximum of whatever the deceased was making after taxes + 2% increase/year until retirement age. Make these payouts non-taxable.

 

[supernovae]

You said that already. What's your point?

Your views on human life and finances don't coincide with reality. Based on your view, we should all be flying around in G-Vs. After all, our lives are of infinite value.

I'm amazed you would even say such a thing and came to such conclusions.. no where did I say everyone is wealthy beyond their imagination just by existing, but I am saying there is no price you can put on ones life.

 

[Ted]

Insurance value is such a lousy way to measure your worth.

My employer provides that much insurance as a benefit, I buy more but in reality, i'm worth infinitely more because my 2 daughters and wife growing up without me has no limit on monetary value.

You can't put a price on it

That "I'm special" attitude doesn't go very far in reality. Ultimately, a value can be assigned and must be. Otherwise every company must fork over every dollar it has at the first injury and fold. You seem to argue Textron should pay lots of money. Poor families. What about the pilot who took the risk in the first place? What about the carburetor company who made the bad carb in the first place? Why should Textron be liable for their errors and decisions?

What about the employees without a job? Does their hardship not count?

"Everybody gets dead." -John Wayne

 

[EdFred]

Have you ever been on a jury or worked in a courtroom? Four years of my law enforcement career has been as a bailiff. Juries are comprised of many types of people. Lots of them are people employed full-time who are away from work. When the trial is only going to be a few days long, judges generally don't grant a hardship excuse. I have seen jurors who were young college students, doctors, attorneys, a retired FBI agent, a retired LAPD homicide division commander, unemployed people, truck drivers, pilots, and lots of other people. It truly does take all types.

I was in the waiting pool. But I already know what I have to say to get dismissed from jury duty. One of the two sides will want me dismissed, guaranteed. Sorry, I'm not sitting a courtroom to get "paid" less than what it costs me in gas and parking.

 

[Ted]

I'm amazed you would even say such a thing and came to such conclusions.. no where did I say everyone is wealthy beyond their imagination just by existing, but I am saying there is no price you can put on ones life.

But clearly there is a value, or we'd spend infinite amounts of money to protect it.

The pilot made the choice to get into a piston single and take off. Is there no inherent risk there? Statistics say otherwise. Should all aircraft be able to meet transport category certification requirements and be flown as such?

 

[EdFred]

What about the employees without a job? Does their hardship not count?

"Everybody gets dead." -John Wayne

Didn't you know it's much better to lay off hundreds if a company goes under from a law suit to pay off the 3 survivor of an idiot that didn't know not to fly into a mountain. Come on Ted, you should know that!

 

[supernovae]

Make it so companies are only liable for a maximum of whatever the deceased was making after taxes + 2% increase/year until retirement age. Make these payouts non-taxable.

Again, what's the point here?

Why devalue human life so much against something as inanimate as a business p&l?

 

[EdFred]

Again, what's the point here?

Why devalue human life so much against something as inanimate as a business p&l?

Your lottery mentality is sickening. The companies should only be liable (if at all!!!) so as not to create an undo hardship on the survivors. If the idiot flies into the side of a mountain because they have their head up their ass, well, that's too damn bad. I'm sorry your wife/husband/mom/dad didn't have the cognitive wherewithal to not be stupid, but I'm sorry, no one else should be paying for their idiocy.

There's 7 billion people on this planet. No one is that important. We're all insignificant.

 

[Bob Noel]

Is 26 million dollars really going to hurt a 12.2 billion dollar company?

I guess we have some insight into how juries can award such completely idiotic sums...

 

[EdFred]

I guess we have some insight into how juries can award such completely idiotic sums...

What's hilarious is it's not OK to say that people aren't worth that much, but at the same time it's OK to treat everyone like a lottery ticket.

 

[supernovae]

That "I'm special" attitude doesn't go very far in reality. Ultimately, a value can be assigned and must be. Otherwise every company must fork over every dollar it has at the first injury and fold. You seem to argue Textron should pay lots of money. Poor families. What about the pilot who took the risk in the first place? What about the carburetor company who made the bad carb in the first place? Why should Textron be liable for their errors and decisions?

First and foremost, I'm looking at the case for what it is. Do I want flying to get more expensive? no.. But if you look at this case and they got levied 26 million dollar fine for negligence, yes, it sucks, but in hindsight, when levied against a 12 billion dollar company, its enough of a fine to make sure it won't happen again. If their risk exposure is capped at 150k because someone has a low paying job or pathetic insurance then they can afford to kill 173 people before it becomes a comparable problem.

What about the employees without a job? Does their hardship not count?

Of course they do, but if their employeer is negligent, they should hold their employer accountable, not the poor families of the deceased or dismembered.

"Everybody gets dead." -John Wayne

Yeah well, I don't want to die because of someone elses negligence and if I do die, I hope my wife and children sue for as much as possible because to me, life is worth more than 26 million dollars, especially if it was someone else's negligence.

If I buy an airplane that has a fatal design and I die because of that design, i'd want my death to cost enough to make it worthwhile that the design doesn't just become acceptable risk or get swept under the carpet.

If someone loses their job, boohoo.. at least their freaking STILL ALIVE lol

 

[MAKG1]

I was in the waiting pool. But I already know what I have to say to get dismissed from jury duty. One of the two sides will want me dismissed, guaranteed. Sorry, I'm not sitting a courtroom to get "paid" less than what it costs me in gas and parking.

Hmm, don't you think you should actually sit on a jury before condemning all of them?

I guess I must be a total idiot because I actually have, and I found the other 11 jurors to be very thoughtful and reasonable, though from vastly different backgrounds from myself.

Letting actual facts contribute to your opinions might be more work, but it's the only way. It seems kind of obvious why one side will use a peremptory challenge on you. You should consider that to be the condemnation that it is. It means you are not considered suitable to have a relevant opinion.

 

[EdFred]

to me, life is worth more than 26 million dollars, especially if it was someone else's negligence.

So what are you insured for? If you are really worth more than that, shouldn't you be insuring yourself for what you think you are worth? If you aren't you're just another schmoe with an inflated sense of self worth.

 

[Ted]

Well, the good part is when supernovae gets priced out of aviation due to his own feelings on law suits, he won't be able to crash and perpetuate the problem.

Lycoming is not a 12 billion dollar company. Not even close.

Sigh...

 

[supernovae]

I guess we have some insight into how juries can award such completely idiotic sums...

So you're saying you want to cap the punishment courts can levy against corporations found guilty? Do you honestly want corporations having fixed caps of liabilities when it comes to the loss of life?

I'm all for fixed caps in non loss of life, its more ridiculous I can be fined 100million dollars for violating copyright law, but damn, I only have to pay 26 million dollars if I kill someone!

 

[EdFred]

Hmm, don't you think you should actually sit on a jury before condemning all of them?

I guess I must be a total idiot because I actually have, and I found the other 11 jurors to be very thoughtful and reasonable, though from vastly different backgrounds from myself.

Letting actual facts contribute to your opinions might be more work, but it's the only way. It seems kind of obvious why one side will use a peremptory challenge on you. You should consider that to be the condemnation that it is. It means you are not considered suitable to have a relevant opinion.

If a trial was comprised of actual facts that might be a plausible argument. But "facts" are always distorted. So I'm forming an opinion on a distorted sense of reality. Not something I would be proud of. But hey, if you want to sit on a jury, have at it, I'm not going to try and stop you, unless it's my trial.

 

[supernovae]

Well, the good part is when supernovae gets priced out of aviation due to his own feelings on law suits, he won't be able to crash and perpetuate the problem.

Lycoming is not a 12 billion dollar company. Not even close.

Sigh...

I'd rather be priced out of aviation than dead.. but honestly, i'd just go buy a continental or a rotax or get something with a jabiru in it.

The world doesn't end for us living, as much as it did for those who are deceased prematurely.

Lycoming is a subsidiary of Textron

 

[Ted]

Buy a Rotax!

A lawsuit against Lycoming hurts Continental, and vice versa. It all goes together.

 

[supernovae]

Buy a Rotax!

A lawsuit against Lycoming hurts Continental, and vice versa. It all goes together.

Only if they're negligent to. I'm pretty sure Continental wouldn't close up shop because Lycoming was found guilty..

are you honestly saying that the corporations making these motors are the true victims of ones death? really?

 

[Bob Noel]

So you're saying you want to cap the punishment courts can levy against corporations found guilty?

Nope.

What I would really like is for defendants found guilty to be, ya know, actually guilty.

 

[supernovae]

Nope.

What I would really like is for defendants found guilty to be, ya know, actually guilty.

How do we know they're not?

BTW, i'm entirely basing my view that the case went to trial and evidence was provided to prove such negligence. If Lycoming wins an appeal, then great, someone didn't get away with negligent death and someone didn't get away with getting rich off a false claim.. (or did they... we may never know)

 

[MAKG1]

If a trial was comprised of actual facts that might be a plausible argument. But "facts" are always distorted. So I'm forming an opinion on a distorted sense of reality. Not something I would be proud of. But hey, if you want to sit on a jury, have at it, I'm not going to try and stop you, unless it's my trial.

So, you base your opinions on nothing at all? And criticize others for reacting to fantasy?

Juries don't work like you think they do.

 

[Skylane81E]

Again, what's the point here?

Why devalue human life so much against something as inanimate as a business p&l?

I just did the math and it made me sad,

BUT financially it is what I am worth to my family, and we are talking finances here

 

[EdFred]

Only if they're negligent to. I'm pretty sure Continental wouldn't close up shop because Lycoming was found guilty..

are you honestly saying that the corporations making these motors are the true victims of ones death? really?

No they are the victims of people like you who think they are worth magnitudes more than what they actually are.

99.99999857% of the world won't give two runny craps if any one of us dies. That's your worth. That's my worth. Or Ted's. Or anyone else in the thread, or on the street, or wherever. We are worth a pittance. What do you do that is sooooooo special that makes you think you are worth eleventy billion dollars? You are a software/web nerd. Oh yeah, a real rarity these days. You're a freakin' Cézanne!

You, like me, and everyone else is expendable, replaceable, and worth a fraction of what you think you are.

 

[EdFred]

So, you base your opinions on nothing at all? And criticize others for reacting to fantasy?

Juries don't work like you think they do.

Juries get presented with "facts" as presented by either side. And as we know lawyers are the most honest group out there, and would never, eeeeeeeever paint things in a way that wasn't completely objective. No, never.

I expect exactly 0 people I don't know personally to be 100% honest, and those I do to not always be 100% honest. A little hard for me to be on a jury.

 

[supernovae]

I just did the math and it made me sad,

BUT financially it is what I am worth to my family, and we are talking finances here

Civil cases don't just sue for reward, they sue to punish and influence. If you take away that ability, then civil cases become nothing more of a nuisance to those who can afford to keep them a nuisance.

 

[Ted]

Only if they're negligent to. I'm pretty sure Continental wouldn't close up shop because Lycoming was found guilty..

are you honestly saying that the corporations making these motors are the true victims of ones death? really?

Insurance rates are based on industry as well as individual. So it stands to reason that as the number of lawsuits goes up, all prices go up evenly. Remember, I said priced out of aviation. Pay attention.

As to your last comment, you haven't been paying attention. I'll just wait for when you post "well, I've given up flying. Prices are too high, I just can't afford it."

 

[Skylane81E]

Civil cases don't just sue for reward, they sue to punish and influence. If you take away that ability, then civil cases become nothing more of a nuisance to those who can afford to keep them a nuisance.

Sure, but now we are not talking about worth anymore are we?

 

[supernovae]

No they are the victims of people like you who think they are worth magnitudes more than what they actually are.

99.99999857% of the world won't give two runny craps if any one of us dies. That's your worth. That's my worth. Or Ted's. Or anyone else in the thread, or on the street, or wherever. We are worth a pittance. What do you do that is sooooooo special that makes you think you are worth eleventy billion dollars? You are a software/web nerd. Oh yeah, a real rarity these days. You're a freakin' Cézanne!

You, like me, and everyone else is expendable, replaceable, and worth a fraction of what you think you are.

I value life over money regardless.

I think its pretty sad to accept our obsession with money over life as a matter of fact, I certainly don't fall in the 99.9% you claim to represent.

 

[supernovae]

Insurance rates are based on industry as well as individual. So it stands to reason that as the number of lawsuits goes up, all prices go up evenly. Remember, I said priced out of aviation. Pay attention.

Well, you're assuming no harm done, i'm just going by what was posted in the case. Either way, if no harm done, Lycoming will win the appeal and all of this going back and forth is for the birds. If they lose the appeal, then maybe, just maybe, something is inherently wrong at Lycoming and the 26 million dollar judgment is enough to convince them to fix it. In which case others will follow suit to fix/prevent the issue and insurance rates may eventually fall because that risk has been taken out of the market.

As to your last comment, you haven't been paying attention. I'll just wait for when you post "well, I've given up flying. Prices are too high, I just can't afford it."

Again, I'd rather "give up flying" then be killed and written off as a mere adjustment on the P&L.

 

[EdFred]

I value life over money regardless.

I think its pretty sad to accept our obsession with money over life as a matter of fact, I certainly don't fall in the 99.9% you claim to represent.

You're the one saying everyone is worth exorbitant amounts of money.

 

[supernovae]

You're the one saying everyone is worth exorbitant amounts of money.

Let me clear it up, Life is invaluable. There is NO amount of money that can bring anyone back from the dead.

There *IS* value in a civil case with teeth if such as case has merit, even if that value APPEARS to be more than what said persons have as a net-worth.

Money is a means for those who are alive and well. A means of action or a means of inaction. A rich persons life is of no more or less value than a poor persons life, they're both infinitely invaluable in that no money can ever give them what they lost nor replace what their surviving siblings and family have lost.

The point of civil cases with such monetary values is to give them teeth for lack of better word.

 

[cirrusmx]

Let me see the insurance policy stating so. In reality, you're probably worth about $300,000.

about the price of late model 172.