Lost my confidence :(

CC268

CC268

Final Approach
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CC268
As some of you know I am a low time Private Pilot (67 hours). I recently got a 1965 Cherokee 140 with my dad. When I got my PPL I was so confident in an airplane and when we got the Cherokee 140 I was quite comfortable as well. I went up with an instructor for an insurance check out and did great. I only have about 10 hours in the Cherokee and I haven't flown in about 2 months now. Holy cow...I feel like a wreck...I see all these posts on here of people dying in small planes and so my mind is stuck on this damn channel that I can't switch. I keep thinking about engine failure on take off and dying a horrible death...its like what the hell dude. I didn't feel this way when I was getting my PPL. Sure...I thought about it, but it didn't rule my mind. Maybe it was because we spend most our time with an instructor when were getting our PPL, but I felt quite comfortable when I did my solo cross countries.

Anyways...I have decided to finally pull the trigger on either the Basic Aerobatics course or the Emergency/Unusual Attitude Recovery Training course at Chandler Aerobatics in the Great Lakes biplane (haven't decided on which one - waiting for a callback from an instructor to make the decision). I think this will really help me get my mind back on the right track. At the end of the day I realize I'm gonna have to grab my nuts and fly solo sometimes...I can't fly with an instructor for the rest of my life. If I can get this together again I do plan to do my instrument rating in the next couple years.
 
Take a deep breath, and then consume 2 six packs of beer, alternating with a shot of whiskey. ;)

I kid. Thinking engine failure should be in your thoughts all the time and knowing where you'll out her down and have an out. Don't obsess about it, just realize it's part of flying. Taking either or both of those courses will do you a lot of good for confidence and learning what to do if you ever get in a situation that calls for corrective action.

Get back up there also. Nothing wrong worrying about these accidents. Remember you don't read about all the thousands of successful flights each day do you? No, only the ones that crash, and some of them are survivable, especially if you're prepared and do the correct actions to save your life. So, get 'er done and go fly!
 
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mscard88 said:
Take a deep breath, and then consume 2 six packs of beer, alternating with a shot of whiskey. ;)

I kid. Thinking engine failure should be in your thoughts all the time and knowing where you'll out her down and have an out. Don't obsess about it, just realize it's part of flying. Taking either or both of those courses will do you a lot of good for confidence and learning what to do if you ever get in a situation that calls for corrective action.

Get back up there also. Nothing wrong worrying about these accidents. Remember you don't read about all the thousands of successful flights each day do you? No, only the ones that crash, and some of them are survivable, especially if you're prepared and do the correct actions to save your life. So, get 'er done and go fly!
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Yea I think the course will be very beneficial for me.

I guess just sometimes I wonder...I'm only 23 years old...and sometimes reading all these accidents makes you think "wow if I keep flying I will likely have an engine failure at some point"...and you just have to hope your not over mountainous Arizona terrain. I want to have a family and kids some day and it seems like chances are I'm gonna be dead in a plane crash before I hit the age of 40. If I was flying in flatland Texas I probabaly wouldn't be as worried. Sometimes I think to myself "I only have 67 hours how the hell can I handle engine failure and land on a city street...that's a job for a pilot with thousands of hours!"
 
Everybody has their own way of overcoming this sort of anxiety.

For many it is mastering whatever is causing the concern. If you fall into that category go out and practice things like engine out procedures in your own airplane until you know you can nail it every time.

The accident discussions are best when they are directed at understanding what went wrong and using that to avoid making the same mistakes. If you too approach it that way it may (may!) help alleviate some of your concern?

The unusual attitudes training is a great idea, but not if you find it demanding only, and not also an enjoyable flying experience. I did an unusual attitudes course and then added one more day to the session at the end where we used the planes to do some one-on-one mock combat (with instructors in the planes with us, of course). That was a wonderful practical lesson in energy management and flying the plane closer to the limits of its flight envelope.
 
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CC268 said:
I want to have a family and kids some day and it seems like chances are I'm gonna be dead in a plane crash before I hit the age of 40.
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Family!? Oh boy, you lost me right there. Nah just kidding.

Practice your emergency procedures and quit over worrying about dying. My God you sound like these rockers who said they'd be dead before 30. Some were because of their life style, the rest eventually cleaned up their act and are in their 60s and 70s now
 
I only have a couple hundred hours and I often get the heebie-jeebies. For some reason I still create stories in my head like severe turbulence when flying in bad weather, landings when really windy, screwing up when repeating a clearance. But it never turns out as bad as I imagine and the confidence builds every flight. Every flight is a new training experience. Just continue to stay frosty on emergency operations and in the unlikely event one ever does happen just fly the plane and let your training and experience get you to the ground safe.
 
mulligan said:
I the confidence builds every flight. Every flight is a new training experience. Just continue to stay frosty on emergency operations and in the unlikely event one ever does happen just fly the plane and let your training and experience get you to the ground safe.
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Great advice Mully! Being proficient in emergency procedures and very familiar with your plane's systems will often be enough to save your ass. You'd be surprised (and you will be after recovering successfully) how that training kicks in when you experience a problem. And if you have a chute, well, hell, just pull!
 
mulligan said:
I only have a couple hundred hours and I often get the heebie-jeebies. For some reason I still create stories in my head like severe turbulence when flying in bad weather, landings when really windy, screwing up when repeating a clearance. But it never turns out as bad as I imagine and the confidence builds every flight. Every flight is a new training experience. Just continue to stay frosty on emergency operations and in the unlikely event one ever does happen just fly the plane and let your training and experience get you to the ground safe.
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Yea well said...a lot of this has to do with me just not flying...I need to get out there and fly even if it is just some touch and goes..I know it would build my confidence again.
 
If you are an average GA pilot, no better and no worse, you're likely to have a fatal accident if you fly 100,000 hrs or so. If you figure you might fly 5,000 hrs over your lifetime (well above the average GA pilot), your odds of dying while flying get lowered by a factor of 20 (IOW, if you lived 20 lives, you'll die while flying in only one of them).
But if you read the accident reports carefully (as I do all the time), you'll notice the vast majority are due to some egregious carelessness, negligence or ignorance, almost as if the pilot was asking for it. If you resolve to always fly safely, do a careful preflight, give yourself extra safety margins, and not do anything really stupid, you can reduce your chances for an accident drastically, to the point where you'll be much more likely to die of something else (which should be the goal of every pilot).
Having said all that, the day you stop worrying that your next flight is going to kill you, will be the day you should hang'em up, since complacency definitely kills.
 
The way I read and interpret your first post it almost sounds to me like you were overconfident earlier on and now you're recognizing that you don't have a lot of experience to go off of. That's a good thing, but don't let the lack of experience paralyze you with fear and cause you to not fly. Go take your aerobatics or emergency maneuver training, it should boost your confidence. Most of all however, keep flying, learn from it, and enjoy the time!

Just remember, if you fly long enough you will likely have an emergency or two. Emergencies can range from mild to wild, how disastrous they are can depend a lot on the reaction from the pilot. Practice and know what you're going to do if/when something happens.
 
RotorDude said:
If you are an average GA pilot, no better and no worse, you're likely to have a fatal accident if you fly 100,000 hrs or so. If you figure you might fly 5,000 hrs over your lifetime (well above the average GA pilot), your odds of dying while flying get lowered by a factor of 20 (IOW, if you lived 20 lives, you'll die while flying in only one of them).
But if you read the accident reports carefully (as I do all the time), you'll notice the vast majority are due to some egregious carelessness, negligence or ignorance, almost as if the pilot was asking for it. If you resolve to always fly safely, do a careful preflight, give yourself extra safety margins, and not do anything really stupid, you can reduce your chances for an accident drastically, to the point where you'll be much more likely to die of something else (which should be the goal of every pilot).
Having said all that, the day you stop worrying that your next flight is going to kill you, will be the day you should hang'em up, since complacency definitely kills.
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Yea I think I am almost overly cautious at this point...to the point where I won't take off if there is a 10 knot wind...lmao...so silly because I dealt with much higher winds when I did my PPL and my landings have always been great. Arizona is nice in the sense that I essentially never have to worry about IMC (and I would NEVER fly on a day with lower ceilings anyways). Most days I fly there isn't a cloud in the sky. I am very careful and cautious and I plan to keep it that way.

I just hate to see myself give up on flying and sell the plane because I am too worried about dying in an aluminum fireball.
 
Flying is all about threat and error management. We know the risks but do our best to mitigate them. I'm trying to soak up as much information as I can at work and take things I like from captains so I can use them when I eventually upgrade. The upgrade will come soon and I want to be fully prepared and ready. I'm your age so it's kind of crazy that by next year, I could be in command of a 50,000 pound jet.
 
I think we all get stuck on things like that sometimes. In fact with how little a margin for error there is in flying, I think it's healthy. A little bit of fear will keep you on your toes and make sure that you are as prepared as you can be for any situation. I still remember when one of my friends came to me after completing his PPL and said, "I just realized people die in these things". I think that many times it's the people that don't have this realization that end up dead.

Set and stay within your personal comfort zone while flying and treat every flight as a lesson. Think about where you'd put the plane down if something happened. Practice emergency procedures. Do a go-around every once in a while. Practice stalls, steep turns, and slow flight. Take lessons in things that will challenge you, like the aerobatics/unusual attitudes course. Get your IFR rating, fly a glider, get a tailwheel/complex/high performance endorsement.

If you're uncomfortable with something, don't hesitate to grab a local CFI and have him help you.
 
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mondtster said:
The way I read and interpret your first post it almost sounds to me like you were overconfident earlier on and now you're recognizing that you don't have a lot of experience to go off of. That's a good thing, but don't let the lack of experience paralyze you with fear and cause you to not fly. Go take your aerobatics or emergency maneuver training, it should boost your confidence. Most of all however, keep flying, learn from it, and enjoy the time!

Just remember, if you fly long enough you will likely have an emergency or two. Emergencies can range from mild to wild, how disastrous they are can depend a lot on the reaction from the pilot. Practice and know what you're going to do if/when something happens.
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I definitely wasn't overconfident by any means...I am not a cocky person when it comes to flying, motorcycles, etc. I stay well within my limits. But you are right about the experience...I only have 67 hours...and so much of that is with an instructor. At some point you have to get out there and fly on your own.
 
I wish I had the skills of those back country bush pilots...those guys can land in a damn Walmart parking lot...it would be a blast to learn that stuff...make you really confident with forced landings.
 
I think the only way to shake the willies is to keep learning new things.
You already discovered that trick and used it, since clearly you were less worried when you were getting your PPL. So keep learning, and each new rating or endorsement you get will expand your horizons and increase your safety margin.
My own recommendation is to get your glider rating: simple, relatively inexpensive, tons of fun, lots of immediate safety feedback to your power flying, and will reduce the fear of engine loss.
The next most important, crucial if you want to go cross country, is your IFR rating.
 
Unusual attitude / aerobatics stuff is good stuff. Done aerobatics in several aircraft including my own. It does give you confidence in recovering an upset aircraft but it doesn't translate much to your particular fear. Really, I think all you need is more engine out training in your particular aircraft with a CFI.

The second problem is you need to try and stop worrying about things that are out of your control. Yes, an engine out you MAY have options but unless you fly with a parachute, you'll never be able to combat all mechanical failures that come your way. You just have to accept the fact there are unknowns out there and sometimes even the best pilots are up against a scenario that's unsurvivable.

Heck, I just had the Velocity out today after having the wing removed. I was looking over at it and thinking, I sure hope he torqued the wing attachment bolts down correctly! :eek: All the aerobatic training in the world won't save me from that failure.
 
Whenever we undertake an activity that has know risk (& what doesn't) we should be fully aware of what we've got ourselves into. Caution & apprehension are good thoughts that help us stay in check & not get too crazy.

Risk management is a real buzz word with the FAA right now. When we consider each mission, we must be aware of the risks. GA flying is more dangerous than driving a car but as others have said pilot error is still the number one cause of accidents. Just don't be a dumb pilot. Easy. In my case, the risks are worth it, to others its not.

I have the same apprehension when I climb on my high powered motorcycle & take off down the road.

As you gain more experience & confidence your fears should lessen.
 
RotorDude said:
I think the only way to shake the willies is to keep learning new things.
You already discovered that trick and used it, since clearly you were less worried when you were getting your PPL. So keep learning, and each new rating or endorsement you get will expand your horizons and increase your safety margin.
My own recommendation is to get your glider rating: simple, relatively inexpensive, tons of fun, lots of immediate safety feedback to your power flying, and will reduce the fear of engine loss.
The next most important, crucial if you want to go cross country, is your IFR rating.
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Yea I was looking at the glider add on..its about $2500 at a local school...I could do that for sure...I guess I could decide between the glider rating, tail wheel rating, aerobatics/upset recovery training.

I have always been pretty nervous in Power On stalls, getting into a spin, etc...that is really why I was thinking about doing the aerobatic/upset recovery training. I really believe it would be great experience and would alleviate my fear of spins, steep turns, unusual attitudes, etc. Not to mention I would get some time in a tailwheel aircraft.

There is no reason why I couldn't do the glider add on later as well...but I think the aerobatics/upset recovery course would be great for me...but I could be wrong
 
Once a month, I go up and practice engine out scenarios. Always in different locations. Flatland, mountains, coastline, airports, whatever. I even practice the impossible turn. (Although I do it at 1,000ft.) I also practice short and soft field landings. Usually burn an entire tank of gas on that day each month.

When I plan my flights, I plan where I'm going to go in an emergency. I divide the flight into zones, and each zone has a nearest airport designated. I even try to plan my altitudes to give me the best chance at gliding to an airport for as large a percentage of the flight as possible.

When I take off, I've already prepped myself as to which way I'm going to turn if my engine quits once I have insufficient runway left to put it back down. (And I never accept intersection takeoffs.) As I fly, I am constantly looking for places to land in case my engine quits.

I'm not scared. I'm just cautious. If I die in a small plane crash, it's going to be because there was nothing I could do to prevent it, short of not flying at all. And that wouldn't be acceptable.
 
7500 alert. The two things that still give me the willies are flying in convective clouds and ruff running engine. My problem is that I have yet to experience what either are really like. I am gong to get an instructor to work wit me on the cloud thing. Basically, I have been requesting deviations in an abundance of caution but have no real idea if I needed to or what it feels like when you start to get in a bad situation. By getting a more experienced instructor to go with me during summer storm season I hope to learn more to expand my limits.

The second being reading all of the stories of ruff running engines and then finding out a mag was lost or leaning fixed it temporarily. Having never had a ruff running engine, I hope I know how and when to recognize it. Will I know by sound, feel, etc. I'm guessing I will know but since it has never happened, hope I am able to recognize and go through the standard list of things to check.

At least I will have the chute.
 
Rykymus said:
Once a month, I go up and practice engine out scenarios. Always in different locations. Flatland, mountains, coastline, airports, whatever. I even practice the impossible turn. (Although I do it at 1,000ft.) I also practice short and soft field landings. Usually burn an entire tank of gas on that day each month.

When I plan my flights, I plan where I'm going to go in an emergency. I divide the flight into zones, and each zone has a nearest airport designated. I even try to plan my altitudes to give me the best chance at gliding to an airport for as large a percentage of the flight as possible.

When I take off, I've already prepped myself as to which way I'm going to turn if my engine quits once I have insufficient runway left to put it back down. (And I never accept intersection takeoffs.) As I fly, I am constantly looking for places to land in case my engine quits.

I'm not scared. I'm just cautious. If I die in a small plane crash, it's going to be because there was nothing I could do to prevent it, short of not flying at all. And that wouldn't be acceptable.
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Yea that sounds like a great thing to do...I should go out and do that myself. In terms of the impossible turn...I'm not even to 1000ft AGL until usually my downwind leg lol...so if I have an engine failure on upwind I am landing in front of me anyways
 
CC268 said:
There is no reason why I couldn't do the glider add on later as well...but I think the aerobatics/upset recovery course would be great for me...but I could be wrong
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Maybe I'm a bit prejudiced but the glider add-on is a great idea. I'm not saying that because I own a glider operation either.

When you fly a glider you don't have the noise, power management, & the effects of the rotating prop to worry about. It's pure flight.

Stalls & spins in a glider is a great way to build your confidence. It almost feels like everything is in slow motion.

Try a glider flight & see what you think.
 
saddletramp said:
Maybe I'm a bit prejudiced but the glider add-on is a great idea. I'm not saying that because I own a glider operation either.

When you fly a glider you don't have the noise, power management, & the effects of the rotating prop to worry about. It's pure flight.

Stalls & spins in a glider is a great way to build your confidence. It almost feels like everything is in slow motion.

Try a glider flight & see what you think.
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Hmm there is a really nice glider school but its about 1.5 hours away :(...there is another 25 minutes from my house, but it seems a bit "ghetto" lol
 
CC268 said:
I have always been pretty nervous in Power On stalls, getting into a spin, etc...that is really why I was thinking about doing the aerobatic/upset recovery training. I really believe it would be great experience and would alleviate my fear of spins, steep turns, unusual attitudes, etc. Not to mention I would get some time in a tailwheel aircraft.
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Have you ever been in a spin? If not, take the acro course. You'll find how easy it really is to recover from a spin and stalls won't bother you any more. The worse result of a stall is ending up in a spin, and if you know how to recover from a spin, well there you go. I think the acro probably the best for you now. You might even combine the two, acro and upset as they really overlap anyway in a way.
 
mscard88 said:
Have you ever been in a spin? If not, take the acro course. You'll find how easy it really is to recover from a spin and stalls won't bother you any more. The worse result of a stall is ending up in a spin, and if you know how to recover from a spin, well there you go. I think the acro probably the best for you now. You might even combine the two, acro and upset as they really overlap anyway in a way.
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Nope never been in a spin. Yea I think your right. I can do the Glider later.
 
CC268 said:
Nope never been in a spin. Yea I think your right. I can do the Glider later.
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You do spins in glider training as well. I did a crap load. They become pretty mundane after awhile.

Spin training is good for precise command of the aircraft. Used to be taught during the PPL process a long time ago. Interesting enough, after the removal of that requirement, spin accidents declined over the years.
 
Velocity173 said:
You do spins in glider training as well. I did a crap load. They become pretty mundane after awhile.

Spin training is good for precise command of the aircraft. Used to be taught during the PPL process a long time ago. Interesting enough, after the removal of that requirement, spin accidents declined over the years.
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Wow that is surprising...I always that it was pretty dumb that I didn't do any spins during my PPL training.
 
CC268 said:
Wow that is surprising...I always that it was pretty dumb that I didn't do any spins during my PPL training.
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You'd be surprised how many CFIs ae scared of spins and won't teach them. My own CFI would send his students to me for spin training! Crazy.
 
mscard88 said:
You'd be surprised how many CFIs ae scared of spins and won't teach them. My own CFI would send his students to me for spin training! Crazy.
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Yea I want to be super comfortable in every aspect of Flight...that's like riding a motorcycle and not leaving 2nd gear
 
CC268 said:
Yea I want to be super comfortable in every aspect of Flight...that's like riding a motorcycle and not leaving 2nd gear
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Worse, riding around in 2nd gear won't kill ya. Not knowing how to recover from a spin could. Now I'm not trying to scare you more, but go do the acro now, rest you can do later.
 
mscard88 said:
Worse, riding around in 2nd gear won't kill ya. Not knowing how to recover from a spin could. Now I'm not trying to scare you more, but go do the acro now, rest you can do later.
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Yea I agree...can't wait to start!
 
Both courses you're thinking about taking will provide many valuable skills. Unusual Attitude Recovery and Basic Acro are great and if you haven't had it yet, I highly recommend receiving spin training.

The more you fly solo the more comfortable you'll feel. Push yourself and take baby steps as confidence grows. Good luck buddy!
 
Don't bother with aerobatics. Your plane isn't capable and you don't need to be either.

Unusual attitude recovery is nice skill. Avoiding unusual attitudes is a much better skill.

You need to fly through this impasse you've come to. "If only I knew x, y, z or 1, 2,3" is not where you'll find the answer. More experience flying your current machine within the constructs of your training will prove much more helpful.

The mindset of training to do what you should be avoiding is tantamount to saying you won't carry a passenger in your PA28-140 until you have your ATP certificate. It makes no sense.

Perhaps a better parallel is to think about when you learned to drive an automobile. How did you conquer your fear of freeways? Did you go to Indy Racing School, or did you just do it for short stretches on low volume days?
 
Yeah, acro training is good for sure. I took 10 hours of it as a low time PPL, doing mostly hammerheads, level inverted flight, loops and rolls. Unfortunately my instructors died a few years afterwards, while practicing the same maneuvers they had taught me (except they were in a tight formation with each other).
But that tragedy aside, feeling comfortable with loops, spins, rolls, stalls, etc. added confidence to my normal power fixed wing flying, and doing glider stalls, spins, and loops (many years later) became piece of cake. The most important point, which is also related to helicopters, is to develop an instinctive feel to what your aircraft will do under any condition, similar to your own body. All this is not to say you should abuse your aircraft, since if you over-abuse it, esp. down low, it will bite.
 
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