Lost coms after assigned heading and well off course

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Bravo

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Bravo
I found myself in a position yesterday that got me thinking I better relearn how to handle this situation. I was flying through solid IMC with light rime icing. I was told to turn to a heading about 70deg right off course to avoid traffic then told to change frequency to another controller. After about 5 minutes in with the new frequency I could barely make out anything he was saying. It was really breaking up bad. He was telling me to change to another frequency but had to say it like 6 times before I could make out what he was saying. Had I lost coms here, being well off my filed route on an assigned heading, what should I have done? I'm asking from the view point of losing my radios completely, but welcome any good pointers had I just lost communication with this freq.
 
Have a handheld? Saved my bacon last year.
 
Bravo said:
I found myself in a position yesterday that got me thinking I better relearn how to handle this situation. I was flying through solid IMC with light rime icing. I was told to turn to a heading about 70deg right off course to avoid traffic then told to change frequency to another controller. After about 5 minutes in with the new frequency I could barely make out anything he was saying. It was really breaking up bad. He was telling me to change to another frequency but had to say it like 6 times before I could make out what he was saying. Had I lost coms here, being well off my filed route on an assigned heading, what should I have done? I'm asking from the view point of losing my radios completely, but welcome any good pointers had I just lost communication with this freq.
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Off course, Icing, no radios... If my transponder still worked I think I would squawk 7700 and try to land asap. Let ATC deal with rerouting traffic. No icing I think you would just follow lost coms procedure which I believe would be to regain your expected course after traffic was past. Did they give you any EFC after the course change, or info as to how far away the traffic was?
 
I would have squawked 7600, started making my way back to my original expected course, and tried to get ahold of them on the original frequencies, then on guard.
 
Unit74 said:
Have a handheld? Saved my bacon last year.
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Yes I do. But I have not been very impressed with its strength. I doubt it would have picked anyone up very well at Alt.

Somedudeintn said:
Off course, Icing, no radios... If my transponder still worked I think I would squawk 7700 and try to land asap. Let ATC deal with rerouting traffic. No icing I think you would just follow lost coms procedure which I believe would be to regain your expected course after traffic was past. Did they give you any EFC after the course change, or info as to how far away the traffic was?
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The icing wasn't an emergency as I have a FIKI aircraft, but certainly could have turned into one had it turned bad. They did not give me any EFC or details on the traffic.

Gucci Pilot said:
I would have squawked 7600, started making my way back to my original expected course, and tried to get ahold of them on the original frequencies, then on guard.
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Sounds like a great plan!
 
You would want to follow 91.185:

1) Route.
(i) By the route assigned in the last ATC clearance received;
(ii) If being radar vectored, by the direct route from the point of radio failure to the fix, route, or airway specified in the vector clearance;
(iii) In the absence of an assigned route, by the route that ATC has advised may be expected in a further clearance; or
(iv) In the absence of an assigned route or a route that ATC has advised may be expected in a further clearance, by the route filed in the flight plan.
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By squawking 7600 you would give notice to ATC of your lost com status. Since you were being vectored for traffic, I would presume once past the traffic, you would be resuming your previous route, unless the controller had told you to expect a different route, so (ii) would apply.

If the other traffic was IFR, it will be up to ATC to move them out of your way. If they were VFR, you don't have any idea where they will be, but if you are in IMC, they shouldn't be at your altitude.
 
We've had that same discussion with our local tower controllers. Because of that all of my instrument students and fellow instructors have the direct phone numbers to our local tower, local approach control supervisor and local center traffic management unit/ supervisor in our cell phones.That way if we lose comms and we know whose airspace we're in we can contact them on the phone. Our tower controllers also said that it doesn't matter whose airspace we're in even if it's hundreds of miles away just call them and they will either coordinate or get us a number we can call. In this situation the regs go out the window and you do what you need to do.
Dave
 
Gucci Pilot said:
I would have squawked 7600, started making my way back to my original expected course, and tried to get ahold of them on the original frequencies, then on guard.
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This, 7600, back to a known safe terrain avoidance track and let them move people out of your way. Although if I was only 5 minutes or so into it, I'd probably hit the flip flop first and try the last freq before going 7600.
 
Henning said:
This, 7600, back to a known safe terrain avoidance track and let them move people out of your way. Although if I was only 5 minutes or so into it, I'd probably hit the flip flop first and try the last freq before going 7600.
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I had a lost comm situation on my instrument checkride. Hit the memory recall and the controller gave me the correct frequency on the second try. It was fortunate for me that I remembered to store the old freq prior to entering the new one.

Anyway, always try the old freq on a bad hand-off. We get problems like this fairly commonly at lower altitudes out west.
 
Clark1961 said:
I had a lost comm situation on my instrument checkride. Hit the memory recall and the controller gave me the correct frequency on the second try. It was fortunate for me that I remembered to store the old freq prior to entering the new one.

Anyway, always try the old freq on a bad hand-off. We get problems like this fairly commonly at lower altitudes out west.
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This is why my CFII suggests that I keep a running log of all frequencies that I am given so that I can go back to the last one if I can't pick up the next one.
 
PPC1052 said:
This is why my CFII suggests that I keep a running log of all frequencies that I am given so that I can go back to the last one if I can't pick up the next one.
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With a flip flop radio, I still have last frequency stored until next handoff.
 
I don't know why you'd go back over a long list of frequencies.

I'll try the current frequency. If I was switched recently, I'll go back to the last one. I'll check the nearest ARTCC (or Approach) outlet in my database and then try 121.5.

7600 presumes that the lost comm was of a nature that only killed the comm radio and didn't take out more of the avionics.
 
flyingron said:
I don't know why you'd go back over a long list of frequencies.

I'll try the current frequency. If I was switched recently, I'll go back to the last one. I'll check the nearest ARTCC (or Approach) outlet in my database and then try 121.5.

7600 presumes that the lost comm was of a nature that only killed the comm radio and didn't take out more of the avionics.
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That's one thing with the G-500 and 430w, never a question of what frequency, you just pop one up on the screen and give a call. Most of the iPad programs will also give you one.

However, given a confused situation with only limited resources, I think 7600 would be appropriate because it is only a communications failure, and it makes them aware that you have turned back towards published safe airspace while you work it out. Why you have a failure to communicate isn't really that important. When you work it out and re-establish coms, then you can set your old squawk back. I think the key issue is that they know that you are not in communication and are on Own Nav back to your clearance. That is the important information they need, and getting back to known safe terrain routing is the first action you should take when doubt of obstacle/terrain situation exists.
 
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PPC1052 said:
This is why my CFII suggests that I keep a running log of all frequencies that I am given so that I can go back to the last one if I can't pick up the next one.
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I keep a log on cross countries. In the terminal area things might get just a little bit busy to keep the log up to date.

On another note, the old Collins radios were quirky since they had a single register memory but no flip-flop. It would store the last freq for you if you remembered to turn the knob...
 
Bravo said:
Had I lost coms here, being well off my filed route on an assigned heading, what should I have done?
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The book answer is "If being radar vectored, by the direct route from the point of radio failure to the fix, route, or airway specified in the vector clearance." Reference is 91.185(c)(1)(ii). The practical application of that is if your heading was away from your assigned/expected/filed route, you'd promptly turn to a heading to intercept your assigned/expected/filed route. If it was towards your assigned/expected/filed route, you'd remain on that heading to intercept your assigned/expected/filed route. Anything else would be at your discretion per 91.3(b) in order to avoid something hazardous into which doing what 91.185(c) says would lead you. And, of course, you'd squawk 7600.
 
flyingron said:
I don't know why you'd go back over a long list of frequencies.
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I wouldn't. Just the last one. But the funny thing about writing a frequency down on paper is that it stays there, even if you write another frequency down right below it.
 
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PPC1052 said:
That would be nice. But I have no such new fangled doo-dad.
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What I did back when flying 30 years ago on those was jot down every freq on paper before setting it. I have seen little counter things like altitude reminders that you can stick on the panel to put in the freq for 'memory' and doing a double update on handoffs.

Do you not have an iPad or tablet with one of the aviation apps? Normally you can pop up your ATC frequencies on those.
 
Clark1961 said:
I keep a log on cross countries. In the terminal area things might get just a little bit busy to keep the log up to date.
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Yeah, I think that is the context-- for cross countries.

I will say that when things are hectic, it's actually easier just to write it down on paper and then change the frequency. Because I have to turn the dial on my ancient radios to change the frequency (no push buttons), I find myself sometimes forgetting the latter digits of the frequency if I don't. I am thinking to my self: "129.95, okay, 121, 120, wait no turn it the other way, 121, 122, 123, -24, -25, -6, -7, -8, -9, point, flip the fractional Mzh switch, hmm do I need .5/.0 or .25/.725? Crap. What was the last number again, point 85 or point 65?"

It's just easier to write it down, and then write the next number down right below it, and then start turning the knob. Same thing for squawk codes.
 
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Henning said:
Do you not have an iPad or tablet with one of the aviation apps? Normally you can pop up your ATC frequencies on those.
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That I do. But that doesn't give you specific sector frequencies within a Charlie or Bravo. You might find a basic frequency for the north/south, or east/west. But it might not give you the specific frequency that they told you to change to. Which all goes into why, as you suggest, it's good to write it down before changing the frequency.
 
PPC1052 said:
That I do. But that doesn't give you specific sector frequencies within a Charlie or Bravo. You might find a basic frequency for the north/south, or east/west. But it might not give you the specific frequency that they told you to change to. Which all goes into why, as you suggest, it's good to write it down before changing the frequency.
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You don't need the specific sector frequency. My recollection of visits to ATC facilities is that the controllers are within shouting distance of each other, so if you get a solid contact on ANY frequency at the facility the person you are talking to can coordinate.

Bob Gardner
 
bobmrg said:
You don't need the specific sector frequency. My recollection of visits to ATC facilities is that the controllers are within shouting distance of each other, so if you get a solid contact on ANY frequency at the facility the person you are talking to can coordinate.

Bob Gardner
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Well, I still prefer to write it down and get it correct. Much easier than hunting down a frequency in forefight, and running the risk of forgetting it again when they give me the correct frequency.
 
Henning said:
However, given a confused situation with only limited resources, I think 7600 would be appropriate because it is only a communications failure, a situation exists.
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I didn't say don't do it, I was just responding to the fact that everybody was stating that well ATC will see my 7600 and know I don't have comms. I can tell you EVERY SINGLE TIME I'VE lost comms, I've lost the transponder as well.

ATC knows they've lost comms with you because you don't answer.
 
an ASRS/NASA report a good idea here
 
flyingron said:
I didn't say don't do it, I was just responding to the fact that everybody was stating that well ATC will see my 7600 and know I don't have comms. I can tell you EVERY SINGLE TIME I'VE lost comms, I've lost the transponder as well.

ATC knows they've lost comms with you because you don't answer.
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Them knowing it, and them knowing you know it and are acting on it are two different things though. 7600, if you can squawk it, serves more to settle the controller's worries about you than anything else, because they may have left you on a vector into terrain. At least this way they know you know what is happenning and have taken action. Now all they need to do is keep traffic off you. It's more of a courtesy than a practicality.
 
Thisis a great discussion, especially for a new IR student like myself. I like learnig from these situations and what-if scenarios.

Two questions for the smart and experienced pilots here regarding loss of communication with ATC on the current or previous frequency:
1) if I find a frequency on my iPad/430/chart and actually can hear the controller, how to best explain my situation and what information to provide? I assume my tail # should be plenty since all sector controllers have access to IFR traffic informatio?
2) if I call on guard (121.5MHz), again, what do I say?
 
From what I understand of ATC operations, having access to information and having it in front of them are two different things. I think you would need to tell them where you are, your altitude, that you're on an IFR flight plan, your destination, and that you lost contact with so-and-so on such-and-such frequency. I think that would be true whether you reached them on an ATC frequency or on Guard.
 
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BigBadLou said:
Thisis a great discussion, especially for a new IR student like myself. I like learnig from these situations and what-if scenarios.

Two questions for the smart and experienced pilots here regarding loss of communication with ATC on the current or previous frequency:
1) if I find a frequency on my iPad/430/chart and actually can hear the controller, how to best explain my situation and what information to provide? I assume my tail # should be plenty since all sector controllers have access to IFR traffic informatio?
2) if I call on guard (121.5MHz), again, what do I say?
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I just call out on the frequency, when someone comes up I explain I can't get hold of anyone on the other frequenency and if they could get me another frequency. You make the call same as you would anywhere. If you don't know exactly who you are calling just call "Center" and follow with your call as normal. When they answer, they'll ID themselves.
 
Any chance the radio problems was caused by ice on the antenna(s)?
 
BigBadLou said:
Two questions for the smart and experienced pilots here regarding loss of communication with ATC on the current or previous frequency:
1) if I find a frequency on my iPad/430/chart and actually can hear the controller, how to best explain my situation and what information to provide? I assume my tail # should be plenty since all sector controllers have access to IFR traffic information?
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Who you are, where you are, what you have, and what you want. For example, "Patuxent Approach, Tiger 22RL is twenty south of Salisbury on V1 southbound at 6000, radio contact lost on 127.95."

2) if I call on guard (121.5MHz), again, what do I say?
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"[facility name], [call sign] on Guard, over." E.g., "Potomac Approach, Tiger 22 Romeo Lima, on Guard, over." Wait for a response, and then continue per the answer to question 1.
 
Ron Levy said:
Who you are, where you are, what you have, and what you want. For example, "Patuxent Approach, Tiger 22RL is twenty south of Salisbury on V1 southbound at 6000, radio contact lost on 127.95."

"[facility name], [call sign] on Guard, over." E.g., "Potomac Approach, Tiger 22 Romeo Lima, on Guard, over." Wait for a response, and then continue per the answer to question 1.
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His question is what do you use instead the facility name when you don't know what facility it is you're calling. The answer is to use a generic 'center' or 'approach'.
 
Henning said:
His question is what do you use instead the facility name when you don't know what facility it is you're calling. The answer is to use a generic 'center' or 'approach'.
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Or even "Hey -- whoever owns the airspace 20 south of Salisbury..." :D
 
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