Lost Comms Today - Not Sure What I Shoulda Done Differently

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Minshall

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Oct 4, 2012
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Oregon
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Display name:
TedM
Today I took a 300nm VFR cross country (UAO to O16), using Flight Following, but no flight plan (daredevil). As I neared the destination, I began a slow descent (informing ATC) from 11.5k to 6k feet. As I descended, I was concerned that the mountains would prevent further radio comms, so I called to cancel Flight Following ... no answer. I made 2 radio calls, and then announced "negative contact, changing frequency to CTAF". When I landed, I tried Oakland radio (frequency posted at the field), but couldn't raise anyone. Next I called 1-800-WXbrief and spoke with a briefer. I explained that I'd had lost communications, so he said he'd call Center and let them know I was on the ground.

About half an hour later, the local police swing by, saying that they'd been called to investigate a missing aircraft. Well, FSS apparently didn't get the message through (though I'm not certain it's truly their responsibility).

I felt terrible that I'd caused trouble for both ATC and the police, but I really thought that I'd handled things correctly.

What else should I have done?
Sure, I could have anticipated the lost-comms, but that's not very reliable. Sure, I could have called Center, but I thought FSS was sufficient (and Center numbers aren't easily found).
Sure, I could have climbed back up to 11,000 feet and called back, but the system is supposed to handle lost-comms better than this, and I know it's not supposed to be required.

When I got home, there was a message from Center, asking that I call to discuss. The controller was extremely supportive and didn't criticize at all, but I'd still like to prevent this from happening in the future - I fly in the mountains a fair amount, and lost comms are likely to occur again.

Thanks for tolerating the long story.
 
What did the Center controller wish to discuss? What did s/he say you should have done?

You could have squawked 7600 and/or requested a relay from other aircraft audible on frequency, if any. Did you continue squawking your discrete code or flip to 1200?

Not sure why they considered you 'missing' or overdue if you squawked your code to destination. Being cautious I guess. Lost comm during FF happens all the time
 
You probably should have gotten the center number and called them yourself. It's just more personal and responsive.

Quite possible you were seeing timing - the officer might have gotten the call before you landed.

Do you know why you lost contact?
 
Minshall said:
Today I took a 300nm VFR cross country (UAO to O16), using Flight Following, but no flight plan (daredevil). As I neared the destination, I began a slow descent (informing ATC) from 11.5k to 6k feet. As I descended, I was concerned that the mountains would prevent further radio comms, so I called to cancel Flight Following ... no answer. I made 2 radio calls, and then announced "negative contact, changing frequency to CTAF". When I landed, I tried Oakland radio (frequency posted at the field), but couldn't raise anyone. Next I called 1-800-WXbrief and spoke with a briefer. I explained that I'd had lost communications, so he said he'd call Center and let them know I was on the ground.

About half an hour later, the local police swing by, saying that they'd been called to investigate a missing aircraft. Well, FSS apparently didn't get the message through (though I'm not certain it's truly their responsibility).


I felt terrible that I'd caused trouble for both ATC and the police, but I really thought that I'd handled things correctly.

What else should I have done?
Sure, I could have anticipated the lost-comms, but that's not very reliable. Sure, I could have called Center, but I thought FSS was sufficient (and Center numbers aren't easily found).
Sure, I could have climbed back up to 11,000 feet and called back, but the system is supposed to handle lost-comms better than this, and I know it's not supposed to be required.

When I got home, there was a message from Center, asking that I call to discuss. The controller was extremely supportive and didn't criticize at all, but I'd still like to prevent this from happening in the future - I fly in the mountains a fair amount, and lost comms are likely to occur again.

Thanks for tolerating the long story.
Click to expand...

You acted correctly. They acted correctly. You were found in 30 minutes, the system worked. It probably happened something like this. When ATC lost radio and radar contact with you while getting Traffic Advisories (what you called flight following) they notified the RCC. By the time you landed and called FSS the system was already looking for you and they didn't get the dogs called off in time. Local law enforcement along with the airport operator are among the first calls made to start looking for you. You're right about being daredevilish in not having a flight plan. If ATC had terminated radar service with you instead of you going NORDO and out of radar contact, no one would have been looking for you until friends or family wondered where you were and started making phone calls if you had gone down somewhere. Using Flight Following as a substitute for a Flight Plan is huge mistake if you want them start looking for you sooner rather than later. This is because there is actually no such thing as Flight Following. Go to the AIM and look up Flight Following.
 
I've had a similar experience. About the only thing different I learned was to ask for Flight Data rather than a Briefer when I called LMformerlyknownasFlightService.

Asking for a relay frequently works if you're in a busy area. Those airline guys aren't doing anything but checking their schedules and discussing their investment strategies anyway. :D

And one other thing, it isn't always possible to anticipate where you will or won't have two-way communication. The controller usually has a good idea where they'll lose you but maybe they get distracted or perhaps the radio they are on needs maintenance and coms are lost early or ATC selects the wrong radio site. Anyway, if you're in a real bind give 121.5 a try and hope someone is listening.
 
Minshall said:
Today I took a 300nm VFR cross country (UAO to O16), using Flight Following, but no flight plan (daredevil). As I neared the destination, I began a slow descent (informing ATC) from 11.5k to 6k feet. As I descended, I was concerned that the mountains would prevent further radio comms, so I called to cancel Flight Following ... no answer. I made 2 radio calls, and then announced "negative contact, changing frequency to CTAF". When I landed, I tried Oakland radio (frequency posted at the field), but couldn't raise anyone. Next I called 1-800-WXbrief and spoke with a briefer. I explained that I'd had lost communications, so he said he'd call Center and let them know I was on the ground.

About half an hour later, the local police swing by, saying that they'd been called to investigate a missing aircraft. Well, FSS apparently didn't get the message through (though I'm not certain it's truly their responsibility).

I felt terrible that I'd caused trouble for both ATC and the police, but I really thought that I'd handled things correctly.

What else should I have done?
Sure, I could have anticipated the lost-comms, but that's not very reliable. Sure, I could have called Center, but I thought FSS was sufficient (and Center numbers aren't easily found).
Sure, I could have climbed back up to 11,000 feet and called back, but the system is supposed to handle lost-comms better than this, and I know it's not supposed to be required.

When I got home, there was a message from Center, asking that I call to discuss. The controller was extremely supportive and didn't criticize at all, but I'd still like to prevent this from happening in the future - I fly in the mountains a fair amount, and lost comms are likely to occur again.

Thanks for tolerating the long story.
Click to expand...

Did you try again on an RCO or other ATC freq when on the ground?

It's not that common of a reaction to being lost comm from VFR FF, normally no one comes looking for you. Around mountains it's a pretty common occurrence. Did you let the controller know you were starting your descent? That is the only thing if you didn't do, that I would do differently in the future, can't really see much else except now that you know you have a dead spot there to call them preemptively with "xxx approach, 23A coming into the mountains and you're likely to lose me." Although typically it's the other way around, '9SA I'm going to be losing you off radar at that altitude." and will either "Services terminated squawk VFR", "I'll pick you back up around...", or "Contact xxx Approach in xx miles."
 
I had a similar issue. I was receiving FF from PCT across the bay and somewhere along Salisbury I couldn't hear them anymore. I transmitted that I was terminating service in the blind and squawked 1200. By the time I hit the pattern at OXB there were people relaying messages from approach wanting to know if I got down OK.

Similarly, I've been asked by Center to give a call down on a local CTAF to make sure a plane they had lost track of got down.

ATC is supposed to investigate any unexpected loss of contact. Just because it was just a VFR getting FF doesn't eliminate the need to do that.

I've lost comms IFR (missed a handoff). I looked up the likely frequency and called them and told them I couldn't hear Washington Center anymore on the frequency I was given, and they said yeah, they were waiting for me. 121.5 works if you can't figure out another frequency.
 
Did you lose your comm radio or lose contact with ATC? The only thing I would have done differently is try to get another airplane on the same frequency to relay the message. No harm, no foul. ;)
 
N747JB said:
Did you lose your comm radio or lose contact with ATC? The only thing I would have done differently is try to get another airplane on the same frequency to relay the message. No harm, no foul. ;)
Click to expand...


That! Or any other frequency off the hi chart. Relay through an airliner way above.
 
N747JB said:
The only thing I would have done differently is try to get another airplane on the same frequency to relay the message.
Click to expand...


If you can hear another plane on frequency, this is a good backup plan. I have been an in air relay several times for both ATC and pilots that have lost communication range with ATC.
 
Wondering if you squawked 7600. That may have helped.

I have had problems with my number 1 com from time to time. Its a Narco so don't know if its worth fixing. If I do send it in its only a matter of time before it fails again. I am planning on installing a new #1 com in the near future. For now I use #1 to get ATIS. It seems to work OK now but it has me leery about using in flight.

So I use #2 com for all communications. Bought a Yeasu 230 handheld and for backup.
 
They likely lost his TXP as well so 7600 wouldn't likely be much good.
 
Henning said:
They likely lost his TXP as well so 7600 wouldn't likely be much good.
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Radio and transponder are separate, so if it was a radio failure transponder should have been received. True or not.
 
Simple, don't use flight following and this would not have occurred.
 
I think you did everything fine. LockheedMartin should've been able to tell the controllers and that should've been the end of it, but I guess you could maybe ask for a number to call the controllers directly and let them know?

Maybe this is just me, but I wish they would publish phone numbers that you could call or text in the air in case of a radio failure.. Why text? I find it easier to understand someone's text message than trying to understand them over the phone from a poor cell connection. The communication is more reliable over text. Just my opinion...

A canadian guy lost his comms in the SFRA going into HEF and called 911. Maybe I'm wrong here, but I can't find the phone number for potomac in the AFD. I would have to do a google search from the air and then try to make contact. Just would be nice if I could look up HEF in the AFD, and find a phone number to call potomac approach directly in case of an emergency.
 
AKBill said:
Radio and transponder are separate, so if it was a radio failure transponder should have been received. True or not.
Click to expand...

It wasn't a failure, it was loss of line of sight to the antennas in the terrain. If you have a radio failure, yes, 7600 would be appropriate, but I would go from there to 1200 to let them know I was fine and had it handled VFR.
 
Minshall said:
Today I took a 300nm VFR cross country (UAO to O16), using Flight Following, but no flight plan (daredevil). As I neared the destination, I began a slow descent (informing ATC) from 11.5k to 6k feet. As I descended, I was concerned that the mountains would prevent further radio comms, so I called to cancel Flight Following ... no answer. I made 2 radio calls, and then announced "negative contact, changing frequency to CTAF". When I landed, I tried Oakland radio (frequency posted at the field), but couldn't raise anyone. Next I called 1-800-WXbrief and spoke with a briefer. I explained that I'd had lost communications, so he said he'd call Center and let them know I was on the ground.

About half an hour later, the local police swing by, saying that they'd been called to investigate a missing aircraft. Well, FSS apparently didn't get the message through (though I'm not certain it's truly their responsibility).

I felt terrible that I'd caused trouble for both ATC and the police, but I really thought that I'd handled things correctly.

What else should I have done?
Sure, I could have anticipated the lost-comms, but that's not very reliable. Sure, I could have called Center, but I thought FSS was sufficient (and Center numbers aren't easily found).
Sure, I could have climbed back up to 11,000 feet and called back, but the system is supposed to handle lost-comms better than this, and I know it's not supposed to be required.

When I got home, there was a message from Center, asking that I call to discuss. The controller was extremely supportive and didn't criticize at all, but I'd still like to prevent this from happening in the future - I fly in the mountains a fair amount, and lost comms are likely to occur again.

Thanks for tolerating the long story.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't have done as much as you did, I'd have done nothing. The controller could have done more. He should have a good idea of where radar and radio would be lost as you descended. A little heads up would have been appropriate.
 
roncachamp said:
I wouldn't have done as much as you did, I'd have done nothing. The controller could have done more. He should have a good idea of where radar and radio would be lost as you descended. A little heads up would have been appropriate.
Click to expand...

Yeah, like I said, typically they tell me we're gonna lose comms.
 
JC150 said:
I

A canadian guy lost his comms in the SFRA going into HEF and called 911. Maybe I'm wrong here, but I can't find the phone number for potomac in the AFD. I would have to do a google search from the air and then try to make contact. Just would be nice if I could look up HEF in the AFD, and find a phone number to call potomac approach directly in case of an emergency.
Click to expand...

It's on Page 384 of the AF/D along with all the other the information on the SFRA procedures.

The more bizarre question is why HEF is listed as being in Washington, DC rather than Manassas.
 
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Normally the controllers will know when they will lose comms with you due to the terrain. I've been on ff before and the controller very specifically told me that he would lose contact shortly, and would pick me up again in about 15 minutes. But, now you know, go ahead and cancel ff before your descent when there is terrain around you.
 
Henning said:
Yeah, like I said, typically they tell me we're gonna lose comms.
Click to expand...

It seems that although they usually do an outstanding job, sometimes they get distracted or otherwise miss giving the heads up. No big deal.
 
The system worked. The only thing I would have done differently is squawk 7600 for two or three minutes and then return to my assigned transponder code.
 
luvflyin said:
...You're right about being daredevilish in not having a flight plan. If ATC had terminated radar service with you instead of you going NORDO and out of radar contact, no one would have been looking for you until friends or family wondered where you were and started making phone calls if you had gone down somewhere. Using Flight Following as a substitute for a Flight Plan is huge mistake if you want them start looking for you sooner rather than later. This is because there is actually no such thing as Flight Following. Go to the AIM and look up Flight Following.
Click to expand...

The term "flight following" is listed in the Pilot/Controller Glossary:

FLIGHT FOLLOWING−
(See TRAFFIC ADVISORIES.)

TRAFFIC ADVISORIES− Advisories issued to alert
pilots to other known or observed air traffic which
may be in such proximity to the position or intended
route of flight of their aircraft to warrant their
attention. Such advisories may be based on:
a. Visual observation.
b. Observation of radar identified and nonidentified
aircraft targets on an ATC radar display, or
c. Verbal reports from pilots or other facilities.
Note 1: The word “traffic” followed by additional
information, if known, is used to provide such
advisories; e.g., “Traffic, 2 o’clock, one zero miles,
southbound, eight thousand.”
Note 2: Traffic advisory service will be provided to
the extent possible depending on higher priority
duties of the controller or other limitations; e.g.,
radar limitations, volume of traffic, frequency
congestion, or controller workload. Radar/
nonradar traffic advisories do not relieve the pilot
of his/her responsibility to see and avoid other
aircraft. Pilots are cautioned that there are many
times when the controller is not able to give traffic
advisories concerning all traffic in the aircraft’s
proximity; in other words, when a pilot requests or
is receiving traffic advisories, he/she should not
assume that all traffic will be issued.
(Refer to AIM.)​

I do agree with you that flight following/traffic advisories is not a substitute for a flight plan, because as discussed in AIM section 4-1-15b1, provision of radar traffic information service may not be possible due to "Many factors, such as limitations of the radar, volume of traffic, controller workload and communications frequency congestion," and because "Controllers possess complete discretion for determining whether they are able to provide or continue to provide this service in a specific case."
 
flyingron said:
It's on Page 384 of the AF/D along with all the other the information on the SFRA procedures.

The more bizarre question is why HEF is listed as being in Washington, DC rather than Manassas.
Click to expand...

Foreflight user here. When I click A/FD it only displays page 49 for me which is why I couldnt find it. Thanks for giving a page #, I'll see if I can somehow pull it up somehow
 
Thanks for all the constructive information.

To answer a few questions:
1) yes, I did advise ATC that I was initiating the descent.
2) Lost communication was due to mountainous terrain, radio was working fine
3) yes, I did transmit in the blind and advise that I wished to discontinue service
4) no, I did not think to attempt a relay
5) no, I did not think to squawk 7600

In future, I'll figure out how to get a better handshake, and I think I'll predict the lost-comms on descent and just tell them not to worry about it.

I do agree, the system did work as intended, and honestly I was both happy to see the police, though chagrined that somebody had to go out of their way to track me down.

Thanks again - I appreciate the collective knowledge.
Ted
 
Minshall said:
I do agree, the system did work as intended, and honestly I was both happy to see the police, though chagrined that somebody had to go out of their way to track me down.
Click to expand...

Nobody had to go out of their way to track you down. There's no requirement for ATC to initiate a search in this situation.
 
roncachamp said:
Nobody had to go out of their way to track you down. There's no requirement for ATC to initiate a search in this situation.
Click to expand...

Which is another reason why flight following might not substitute for a flight plan.
 
roncachamp said:
Nobody had to go out of their way to track you down. There's no requirement for ATC to initiate a search in this situation.
Click to expand...

What's interesting is there is another thread going indicating similar odd behaviors from ATC.:dunno:
 
JC150 said:
Foreflight user here. When I click A/FD it only displays page 49 for me which is why I couldnt find it. Thanks for giving a page #, I'll see if I can somehow pull it up somehow
Click to expand...
He probably should have followed lost comms in sfra procedure, which for vfr is to squawk 7600 and immediately exit via most direct route.
 
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