Looking to buy a sitting airplane

[Mitchell Woods]

Hi Guys!
Long time lurker, first time poster. Got an interesting one for you today. Not that it's relevant, but for context, I am a SEL/MEL IR commercial pilot. I've been keeping an eye on an old (1978) 182 for a few months now, and just decided to start doing some research into it. It's been sitting for probably 8 years based on the registration cancel date. Cosmetically, it seems to be in slightly above average shape, cables are still tight and elevators move freely, tires are flat but that's no surprise. I've kind of been contemplating attempting to purchase it, so I started doing some research. The airplane's last registered owner was a corporation that was dissolved in 2018. Based on the public records, it seems that all the owners of the company have died as they were all in their late 80s to 90s. So, to recap, Registration expired, company dissolved. This poses an interesting predicament. I've pulled an FAA records request, got the CD, and didn't find anything super super alarming (at least for a plane sitting for the better part of a decade).

I'm wondering if anyone knows a good way to attempt a purchase, all other assets the company had were sold at tax auctions, so that doesn't say a lot with respect to the mechanical soundness of the airplane, but if I'm able to simply transfer ownership and pay a small fee to do it, I'm willing to fork over a few thousand dollars for an inspection and see if it's financially responsible to sink money into. Obviously I can probably buy a flying airplane, possibly for cheaper, but this seems like a fun project to work on with my good friend who is an A&P. Aside from contacting the airport manager, who I've heard can be a huge pain with even the slightest issues. Obviously, eventually they would be filled in, but for now I'd like to get all my ducks in a row so that they can't prevent the sale. He seems like the guy to take my idea, block it on an administrative level, then buy the plane and do it himself if that makes sense. I called a lawyer who told me to look at the rules for abandoned property law, but I can't find a single instance that would help me with this issue of private property on a public airport.

The airplane has been stored outside in a relatively dry, midwest climate that is not impacted by the bad things like salt water. Based on what I'm seeing, this thing could be ready to start up. I haven't borescoped the engine obviously but everything seems there and I did look around it for a goof half hour trying to find a rat infestation, chewed wires, etc. The doors were locked but the inside looks to be in decent shape as well, with no evidence of animal foul play.

I've been looking here and there to find an airplane to buy to help my son get his private and build hours in, and obviously that won't happen until the airplane has been thoroughly checked out and if anything, flown by me for a substantial amount of time for me to deem it safe for my family to travel in.


Thank you for your advice in advance!

Mitch

 

[brien23]

Don't let the thought of flying around in the plane over play the problems you face, legal ownership may or not be more of a problem $$$ than you think, condition of the plane inspection how in depth are you going to go, what you miss will cost $$$. Remember most everything in aviation can be fixed with money, just how much do you want to pay. If this diamond in the rough has been sitting so long why has no one else gone for it before now, I have seen projects like this go on forever and never seem to get to the finish line.

 

[sourdough44]

Could well be a ‘project plane’ if priced accordingly. It’s already been sitting for 8 years, then who knows what went on the years prior.

I’d be discounting the engine($0), avionics & all kinds of getting it up to snuff.

Could be a worthwhile project, yeah, you show an interest & someone with more connections may snipe you.

 

[bflynn]

Ownership is a tricky question and will depend on the corporate charter and state law. The airplane is abandoned property and could be owned by heirs of the corporate shareholders or by the state. The defined point should be in the state law.

 

[Racerx]

I've looked at some ramp rats that were actually up for sale. 2 of them were sold to salvage companies that dismantled and sold as parts which is a damn shame. But that tells you what kind of money you're looking at putting in when the part value exceeds the flying value. If the registration was cancelled that long ago your 8 years of non flying might be longer. I know planes that have sit but owners have kept up on registration. The other tax sales doesn't lend itself well to being under private ownership considering the owner was a corporation. Without a good grasp of ownership (someone is paying the tie down fees... hopefully), good luck on finding logbooks. Which means recreating every A/D since new. Recently looked at a Cherokee that flew to sun n fun in 2011. Owner and a/p have since passed. All logs lost. Out of annual. Wheel pants that were on are now gone. What else is missing? Would have to recreate everything back to 1962 then probably overhaul or be ready to. Ask price and my offer would have been to far apart to not be insulting.

On the plus side unless the tail number was reassigned it's after the 5 year hold so you don't need to re-paint with new numbers. Then again, a repaint would be the perfect time to go through and fix all the little issues your sure to encounter. All the things that would have popped up over the last 10 years during a regular annual.

 

[Jeff767]

I find most people vastly overrate purchase price when figuring out a budget number for aircraft ownership. In general it’s cheaper to buy a more expensive well maintained aircraft than a hangar queen and think you will redeem her!

 

[benyflyguy]

Airport manager probably knows a lot more about the plane then you do. If interested has Probably contemplated what you are- but hasn’t. Likely for good reason. Simply asking the manager about the plane ownership won’t be that harmful. Most ppl aren’t that cutthroat. I’d just ask him. Would advance your cause a lot faster IMO

 

[Bell206]

The airplane's last registered owner was a corporation that was dissolved in 2018.

These type of projects tend to be the most interesting in my experience. The key part to determine is the chain of ownership that the FAA will accept to allow you to register the aircraft regardless who you may purchase the aircraft from. Link below is some guidance on ownership documents.

While you can research this chain on your own I always had better luck using a title search company or aviation attorney, or at a minimum, have one of them verify your research. Bottom line someone will have to sign on 8050-2 as seller to maintain the ownership chain. Since the company was dissolved there usually is a trustee named to handle the disposal of the assets who typically assumes the role of owner for such sales. And since it is still sitting at the airport my guess it is still attached to some form of ownership vs being abandoned. Good luck.

https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/aircraft_certification/aircraft_registry/media/8050-94.pdf

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

I wouldn’t worry about someone stealing your deal or idea. Reach out to the airport manager AND others on the field to get recon on the humans that were connected to the machine and run your traps from there. The work of acquiring such a machine is part of the fun you seek, and while many people say they would do what it takes, many people are talk and little action. Post outcomes or progress here!

 

[Tom-D]

I'd start with the airport manager, they should know who pays the ramp fees, many times the aircraft owes more than it is worth in back ramp fees. Some times the airport can claim ownership thru the courts.
If the ramp fees are being paid, by who? they should know who owes it.

 

[Mitchell Woods]

Hey everyone thanks for your replies. I left out a big portion of the story that after reading I can now recall. I'm going to attempt to address everyone who has commented individually, so bear with me as this could get long.

Don't let the thought of flying around in the plane over play the problems you face, legal ownership may or not be more of a problem $$$ than you think, condition of the plane inspection how in depth are you going to go, what you miss will cost $$$. Remember most everything in aviation can be fixed with money, just how much do you want to pay. If this diamond in the rough has been sitting so long why has no one else gone for it before now, I have seen projects like this go on forever and never seem to get to the finish line.

I am definitely cautious of the airplane itself, and I understand that this is seemingly one of those "money solves the problem" situations. I don't necessarily think it's a diamond in the rough, but cosmetically the airframe seems to be in good shape. My thought process was that once it inspected, I could make a decision whether to continue or scrap it for the value. The panel is there in it's entirety, so it hasn't been picked and pulled, which leads me to assume that there is a somewhat decent chance of all the parts being there.

Could well be a ‘project plane’ if priced accordingly. It’s already been sitting for 8 years, then who knows what went on the years prior.

I’d be discounting the engine($0), avionics & all kinds of getting it up to snuff.

Could be a worthwhile project, yeah, you show an interest & someone with more connections may snipe you.

This was my thought too, I would need to get it for near next to nothing or it wouldn't be justifiable. The prop turns by hand so that's at least somewhat promising.

Ownership is a tricky question and will depend on the corporate charter and state law. The airplane is abandoned property and could be owned by heirs of the corporate shareholders or by the state. The defined point should be in the state law.

My understanding of corporations is to limit the connection between the individual and the asset, so would that not effectively invalidate any other claim on the airplane by dependents, as long as the managing members Trust did not specifically include them into it? Even then, with the corporation not current, I think that could cause issues with it as well.

I've looked at some ramp rats that were actually up for sale. 2 of them were sold to salvage companies that dismantled and sold as parts which is a damn shame. But that tells you what kind of money you're looking at putting in when the part value exceeds the flying value. If the registration was cancelled that long ago your 8 years of non flying might be longer. I know planes that have sit but owners have kept up on registration. The other tax sales doesn't lend itself well to being under private ownership considering the owner was a corporation. Without a good grasp of ownership (someone is paying the tie down fees... hopefully), good luck on finding logbooks. Which means recreating every A/D since new. Recently looked at a Cherokee that flew to sun n fun in 2011. Owner and a/p have since passed. All logs lost. Out of annual. Wheel pants that were on are now gone. What else is missing? Would have to recreate everything back to 1962 then probably overhaul or be ready to. Ask price and my offer would have been to far apart to not be insulting.

On the plus side unless the tail number was reassigned it's after the 5 year hold so you don't need to re-paint with new numbers. Then again, a repaint would be the perfect time to go through and fix all the little issues your sure to encounter. All the things that would have popped up over the last 10 years during a regular annual.

I do agree that the airplane could have been sitting for more than 8 years, in the Records Request from the FAA, in 2003 the ownership sent a registration update to the FAA requesting cancellation, specifying "Being restored, not flying" which may very well mean it hasn't flown since 2003. But, I'm led to believe it was restored and flown since then, since the registration of the airplane didn't update as cancelled (at the very least cancelled this time) in 2011. My guess is that it was restored in 2003-2004 ish, and they flew it until TBO then put it away wet. I feel that the painting of a new tail number will be the least of my concerns. The issue of logs is definitely something I have to consider too, the hobbs on the panel says around 1300 hours, but I'm sure I'd want to do a total engine rebuild, and also have to make sure all ADs are complied with.

I find most people vastly overrate purchase price when figuring out a budget number for aircraft ownership. In general it’s cheaper to buy a more expensive well maintained aircraft than a hangar queen and think you will redeem her!

I totally follow this same mindset and mentality, but I think it would be a great learning lesson for both my son and myself to work on rebuilding this airplane, especially since I have an A&P who will give me a very good deal on the labor. I want him to understand how things work, not just that they do. I find it to be safer that way.

These type of projects tend to be the most interesting in my experience. The key part to determine is the chain of ownership that the FAA will accept to allow you to register the aircraft regardless who you may purchase the aircraft from. Link below is some guidance on ownership documents.

While you can research this chain on your own I always had better luck using a title search company or aviation attorney, or at a minimum, have one of them verify your research. Bottom line someone will have to sign on 8050-2 as seller to maintain the ownership chain. Since the company was dissolved there usually is a trustee named to handle the disposal of the assets who typically assumes the role of owner for such sales. And since it is still sitting at the airport my guess it is still attached to some form of ownership vs being abandoned. Good luck.

A lot of good information here too, the obviously highly unethical (not to mention illegal) way to do it would be to open an LLC of the same name and simply change the address to mine, but that is not at all the way I plan about getting this done. The aviation attorney I contacted basically told me that it isn't even an aviation related issue, it's an abandoned property issue. I think he's under the impression that it may be a totally civil matter without any kind of special consideration given that it's an aircraft. I tend to follow his logic, because if he was under the impression that he could offer his services in any way, I'm sure he would have loved to send me a bill for services rendered. I will definitely contact a title company to run a search, the FAA records don't show any lien and show the airplane purchased for $10 (not even OVC) in 1984, so I'm led to believe there is no loan on the purchase, however one can definitely arise over it's life, so thank you for that tip.

Airport manager probably knows a lot more about the plane then you do. If interested has Probably contemplated what you are- but hasn’t. Likely for good reason. Simply asking the manager about the plane ownership won’t be that harmful. Most ppl aren’t that cutthroat. I’d just ask him. Would advance your cause a lot faster IMO

I think realistically this is the best way to go about it. He has only been on the airport for about 5 months, though, so maybe if I speak to our old airport manager I can get somewhere with it.

I wouldn’t worry about someone stealing your deal or idea. Reach out to the airport manager AND others on the field to get recon on the humans that were connected to the machine and run your traps from there. The work of acquiring such a machine is part of the fun you seek, and while many people say they would do what it takes, many people are talk and little action. Post outcomes or progress here!

This is what I think my next step will be, and I will definitely be updating this post with information once I find out anything more.

I'd start with the airport manager, they should know who pays the ramp fees, many times the aircraft owes more than it is worth in back ramp fees. Some times the airport can claim ownership thru the courts.
If the ramp fees are being paid, by who? they should know who owes it.

This post is the one that reminded me of the other large portion of this story I failed to mention. There was another airplane, a vintage Albatross that was owned by one of the owners of the company that owns the plane I am attempting to purchase. The airport posts their monthly meeting minutes, and in 2015, the Albatross was brought up as being derelict and basically a birds nest, after repeated attempts to collect ramp fees from him, he blatantly refused and the airport had it removed and billed the cost to him. That leads me to believe that the airplane has in fact not been kept current with tie downs as they wanted a very reasonable price for the Albatross (something like $50 a month, in the dirt). With this in consideration, I know the airport community isn't very fond of the family, which I'm hoping helps my case.

Today on Facebook I saw a Cherokee that has been out of annual since '99 posted for sale. There were people offering anywhere from $500-2000, and a few saying that the airport would have to pay someone to dispose of them, so he would take it off their hands for free. In a perfect world, I'm hoping I can get the airplane for between $0-1500, spend maybe $2,000 on a complete inspection to determine squawks and then if it ends up being a much bigger project than anticipated, Just sell the airplane for scrap value. I may take a slight loss on the value, but I take a loss on the value of my car every day too, so what's the real harm in the potential of securing a great project for a low price.

 

[lsaway]

I'd start with the airport manager, they should know who pays the ramp fees, many times the aircraft owes more than it is worth in back ramp fees. Some times the airport can claim ownership thru the courts.
If the ramp fees are being paid, by who? they should know who owes it.

2 months ago, Airport authority sold this sitting GII-SP at auction for $17,500. Probably was sold for unpaid ramp fees.

 

[Racerx]

I'm all for restoring the old and putting some sweat equity in. Like I said earlier, I've been looking at it myself. Especially when the next generation wants to learn both how to fly and how to work on things. That sort of knowledge and frankly work ethic is lost on our generation and probably is only moreso the further we get from when people had no choice but to learn how to do things for themselves. But after you factor in all the potential costs of restoration an RV (2 place not the 10) or a sling may be cheaper with less headaches. Can do everything yourself, still teach the kid the in and outs and have a completely new modern airplane.

 

[Bell206]

The aviation attorney I contacted basically told me that it isn't even an aviation related issue, it's an abandoned property issue.

More likely it was a job he didn't care to take on. Determining the legal chain of aircraft ownership is about as aviation as it gets from a legal standpoint considering everything starts/ends with the owner. Have chased a number of ramp queens for myself/others and never found one that fit the state definition of abandoned property. If it was abandoned the local private or public entity overseeing the aircraft would have scooped up the aircraft and sold it at auction as it is free money which is different than auctioning it for money owed. But that's my experience. And not all title searches only deal with liens. The ones I got/get include the chain of ownership since manufacture or the reason the chain is broken. As to your "unethical" route all that will do is dig yourself a hole from a regulatory point. Regardless, finding the right aircraft in this circumstance can be a great adventure.

 

[ktup-flyer]

It could be a really good project airplane, but it’s impossible to tell without opening it up. I’d find a contact and purchase it on condition of a (relatively) good annual. 78 is a pretty good year to start with. It’s the year before the 92 gallon wet wings, but it has the better yokes, the 28v electrical system, O-470-U (higher compression and lower RPM), etc. There were like 6-7 keys made for every Cessna made, so the doors being locked is an easy fix. You’re also in luck that it has a Continental and not a Lycoming... better shot of the engine being good. Scope it and go from there.

What airport is it at? You can PM me if you don’t want it public.

 

[3393RP]

View attachment 91821
2 months ago, Airport authority sold this sitting GII-SP at auction for $17,500. Probably was sold for unpaid ramp fees.

I know I'm getting old when an airplane that was the state of the art when I was 25 is now left abandoned on airport ramps.

 

[dmount76]

I want to give you some encouragement. While I didn't have to deal with dead owners, I did take over a abandoned aircraft with missing logs and it was a blast to get airworthy again. My story is there was a 1952 V-tail bonanza left at our airport about 12 years ago. A hangar owner stuck it in a back row hangar after it sat on the ramp for a year. I was hangered next to it and always had an eye on it. After getting the blessing of the hangar owner I tracked down the registered owner and after several months of phone calls he agreed to sell it to me for less than one could easily salvage the parts on it for. The lost logs were an issue. We got the CD from the FAA with the 337's and visited each repair shop listed and most of them were willing to print off records of their log entries and give us fresh signatures. Luckily there were no AD's that required tear down of the engine. Surprisingly then contenential E-225 was in relatively good shape after having sat for so long. I've put almost 125 hours on it since and compressions keep going up! We invested 100's of hours of time in the project but has been fun all the way. Now have a nice bonanza that we have little cash into and love flying. Keep at it and maybe you can find and save an aircraft as well!

 

[Shepherd]

Then there are those with a serious set of mental diseases. You won't ever get the plane from these people, or those of similar ilk.
"As long as I own the plane, I'm a pilot" (My brother-in-law. He and his plane haven't flown in over 30 years.)
"It's a classic, an antique aircraft, and its worth at least $140,000.00." (Says the non-flying son of a 1946 Ercoupe that's been sitting in the weeds since 1979, when the father died.)
"It was my Grandfather's plane. He would want it to stay in the family." (1937 Waco. Gramps died in 1948. No one in the family has ever had an interest in flying.)

 

[Racerx]

Then there are those with a serious set of mental diseases. You won't ever get the plane from these people, or those of similar ilk.
"As long as I own the plane, I'm a pilot" (My brother-in-law. He and his plane haven't flown in over 30 years.)
"It's a classic, an antique aircraft, and its worth at least $140,000.00." (Says the non-flying son of a 1946 Ercoupe that's been sitting in the weeds since 1979, when the father died.)
"It was my Grandfather's plane. He would want it to stay in the family." (1937 Waco. Gramps died in 1948. No one in the family has ever had an interest in flying.)

Yep. Have seen that. Like plane ownership is a status symbol. The people that like the idea of owning a plane more than actually flying a plane and all the responsibility it takes to maintain both said plane and one's own skills.

 

[Racerx]

Today on Facebook I saw a Cherokee that has been out of annual since '99 posted for sale. There were people offering anywhere from $500-2000, and a few saying that the airport would have to pay someone to dispose of them, so he would take it off their hands for free. In a perfect world, I'm hoping I can get the airplane for between $0-1500, spend maybe $2,000 on a complete inspection to determine squawks and then if it ends up being a much bigger project than anticipated, Just sell the airplane for scrap value. I may take a slight loss on the value, but I take a loss on the value of my car every day too, so what's the real harm in the potential of securing a great project for a low price.

Is that the one on barnstormers in michigan? Out of annual since 97. But hey, only 20 SMOH. Asking 12k. Who stops flying shortly after sinking the money into a plane from an overhaul. Perhaps lost medical. But that's the white flag that you should sell.

 

[lsaway]

If the airplane is abandoned, you need to find out what your local and state laws are regarding abandoned property. I am sure there will be a list of people or entities that will have financial interest in the plane that will need to be satisfied or abandoned, including taxing entities and airport authority. I personally would not sink time or money into it without obtaining an appropriate court order authorizing the sale or transfer of ownership.

Sad picture of "sitting" airplanes at the local airport.

 

[jd21476]

Keep in mind some of these planes that have been sitting have wooden frames that are completely rotted through. I know there is a Mooney at my airport that has been sitting for a while and when I inquired about it one of the local mechanics told me the thing was basically firewood.

 

[Mitchell Woods]

Yep. Have seen that. Like plane ownership is a status symbol. The people that like the idea of owning a plane more than actually flying a plane and all the responsibility it takes to maintain both said plane and one's own skills.

Heard this all too many times, Unrealistic expectations of the value. It's really bad when you pull up their license info on the website and it says their third class med expired in 2012, clearly they're not going to be getting back n the cockpit tomorrow.

Is that the one on barnstormers in michigan? Out of annual since 97. But hey, only 20 SMOH. Asking 12k. Who stops flying shortly after sinking the money into a plane from an overhaul. Perhaps lost medical. But that's the white flag that you should sell.

Columbus, Missouri. Last annual '99, 5800TT, 1230 SMOH, Max offer was $2,000.

If the airplane is abandoned, you need to find out what your local and state laws are regarding abandoned property. I am sure there will be a list of people or entities that will have financial interest in the plane that will need to be satisfied or abandoned, including taxing entities and airport authority. I personally would not sink time or money into it without obtaining an appropriate court order authorizing the sale or transfer of ownership.

Sad picture of "sitting" airplanes at the local airport.

View attachment 91840

I think a good move would be to contact some kind of attorney to handle this, but is that even a type of attorney? Abandoned property? Which would you recommend. The 182 is fortunately in far better shape than that 210, being on the ramp and doesn't have all kinds of stuff on and around it. That 210 sure would be nice to revive, definitely one of my favorite airplanes.

Keep in mind some of these planes that have been sitting have wooden frames that are completely rotted through. I know there is a Mooney at my airport that has been sitting for a while and when I inquired about it one of the local mechanics told me the thing was basically firewood.

We've actually got a Mooney sitting too. Really makes me wonder why we've become the graveyard. That one has particles in the fuel and hasn't flown for 10 years.. Definitely not a diamond in the rough.




Thank you everyone for all your information, I learned more here than I could possibly have learned through one or two people, finding out that it is indeed feasible, and hearing success stories and also what to look out for.

My game plan: Buy it, inspect it, if it's no good part anything of value and send to scrap, hopefully without losing more than a few nice dinners on it. Otherwise, move forward.

Any more comments and advice is greatly appreciated.

 

[Rgbeard]

We had a thread posting pics of ramp queens around here.... somewhere....

 

[JOhnH]

Sad picture of "sitting" airplanes at the local airport.
View attachment 91840

I wonder what the condition of the ruddervators on that V-Tail is.

 

[lsaway]

I think a good move would be to contact some kind of attorney to handle this, but is that even a type of attorney? Abandoned property? Which would you recommend.

I think the first thing you should do is talk to the airport manager. If somebody is paying ramp fees, than the property is not abandoned, and I would not go any further. I would not be turning the prop and poking around an airplane without permission of the owners. Depending on your location, perhaps law enforcement would be a good place to go ask questions. If you have any environmental health officers, you can ask them how they enforce abatement of abandoned and nuisance vehicles or properties. Where I live, there are procedures for sending notifications to owners and lienholders, and if they do not respond within a certain period of time, the property may be removed and sold at public auction, and the previous owners and lien holders forfeit their claims to the property. Since airplanes don't have titles or deeds that can be recreated by authorities, I believe a court order would need to be submitted to FAA to secure your ownership. Most importantly, I think that you must have a tangible interest in the airplane before you have any hope of getting it. Unless it is parked on your private property, or you are owed money against it, you probably don't have any legal path to obtain ownership, unless you wait until it goes up for public sale and you compete with other bidders to get it.

 

[Mitchell Woods]

If somebody is paying ramp fees, than the property is not abandoned, and I would not go any further. I would not be turning the prop and poking around an airplane without permission of the owners.

To reiterate, the owner had another airplane on the airport that she refused to pay to keep current and had to be scrapped. I'm positive no one is paying ramp fees on it. It's probably just more along the lines of "We don't need to move it because we have the space". However, you bring up a very good point about lien holders. I think my next step will be to get a title search, and then offer lien holders to buy the debt from them, seeing as they won't get a dollar of it if the airplane goes up for auction.