Looking for CFI advice

[iamtheari]

I guess you don't know a lot of professionals.

Part of my definition of 'professional' is the ability to moderate language and conduct according to the situation. I know a judge who has a cattle ranch. I haven't ridden with him but I doubt he speaks the same to his herd as he does to attorneys in court.

I just started teaching my 18 year old to fly.

How does teaching your kids how to fly compare with teaching them how to drive? I would think it's less stressful since you have dual controls in the plane but not in the car, but I haven't been through the process (yet). I just know how much safer I feel in the copilot seat as opposed to the passenger seat of a car, regardless of who's flying or driving at the time.

To the OP: A good teacher, of any material, will find a way to relate to the student. "Don't side load the gear" is sufficient instruction for a 500-hour pilot with lots of tailwheel time, but not for you as you don't seem to have enough experience to immediately recognize the symptoms or cures for side-loading. And that's fine, it just means you need to get time with a different instructor or succeed in communicating to your current instructor, on the ground when you don't have an airplane to fly, why you're struggling to understand some of his instruction. If you want a break from the instrument slog, I always suggest a tailwheel endorsement as the biggest bang for your buck to be a better overall pilot.

The instrument rating is a hard one because it involves skills that your body actively tries to undermine, procedures that seem to be written in hieroglyphics, and talking to ATC at machine-gun pace, all while trying to fly an airplane when it may not quite be second nature. Somewhere along the way to an instrument rating, you will truly understand what task saturation is, and how to deal with that when you're bouncing around alone in the clouds is another important thing you should learn along the way. The more of the tasks that you can accomplish with ease and aplomb on their own (such as flying the plane to instrument standards regarding altitude, course, and heading, talking to ATC, briefing approach plates in your living room while someone else is watching TV, etc.) the less saturated you'll be when you combine them under the hood in the plane.

So go fly for fun. Fly solo, with friends and family, and with other pilots. Get flight following every time you go anywhere. Debrief how you did with your pilot friends (whether you and they have flown together or just visited around the airport beer cooler) and discuss where each of you has room to learn or improve. Read and participate in discussions online. All of these things will help you focus your energy on making improvements to your flying and achieving the ratings you're after.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Part of my definition of 'professional' is the ability to moderate language and conduct according to the situation. I know a judge who has a cattle ranch. I haven't ridden with him but I doubt he speaks the same to his herd as he does to attorneys in court.

Agreed. I can guarantee that about judges . But the OP is describing an on-the-job event.

 

[dmspilot]

"Colorful" language isn't necessarily off-limits, but, if the student is offended and insulted, it's a pretty big clue you're doing it wrong.

 

[midlifeflyer]

"Colorful" language isn't necessarily off-limits, but, if the student is offended and insulted, it's a pretty big clue you're doing it wrong.

As they say, you gotta be able to read the room.

 

[k9medic]

How does teaching your kids how to fly compare with teaching them how to drive? I would think it's less stressful since you have dual controls in the plane but not in the car, but I haven't been through the process (yet). I just know how much safer I feel in the copilot seat as opposed to the passenger seat of a car, regardless of who's flying or driving at the time.

A lot less stressful. Having a set of controls makes all the difference. We flew for an hour this morning and he now has a whopping 2.7 hours in his logbook (.7 was from over a year ago though.) We worked the pattern and he made 7 stop and go landings. 3 of them were unassisted. We also went out and did slow flight and flew around with the stall horn blaring. He learned that he can trim the aircraft and left go of the yoke and steer with his feet when going slow. I even gave him an engine failure in the pattern to show him why we fly the pattern the way we do. He landed perfectly from mid field down wind. It was a great confidence builder.

 

[Gilbert Buettner]

We also went out and did slow flight and flew around with the stall horn blaring.

Current ACS doesn't want the examiner to hear the horn.

 

[Zeldman]

How does teaching your kids how to fly compare with teaching them how to drive?

I used to teach flying. There was a few times I got greatly concerned, but not a stressful event.

I taught my wife to drive. That was one of the most terrifying experiences in my life.!!

 

[C310_Dreamer]

You aren’t going to like my advice, but to fly an airplane under instruments, you have to be able to fly the airplane pretty well visually. Unfortunately you started instrument training when you could not demonstrate student pilot solo proficiency, which at the very minimum does require remembering how to land.

When an instructor accepts an instrument student, even immediately after the private practical test, the syllabus assumes the student possess private pilot proficiency. It’s terribly frustrating as an instructor to have a student for an advanced rating with the proficiency level you brought to the training.

The CFI is totally incorrect to be yelling and degrading you about this. The proper action after your deficiencies were so apparent was to suspend the instrument training a provide some remedial training on the landings and other areas you are deficient.

I'm not so sensitive I can't handle this type of criticism (above). But it does miss the mark in my situation. Not holding it against you.. you weren't there.

While in PPL check ride prep I was beasting all of the required landings. Short field, soft field, normal. Were they always stellar? No, but then again neither are anyone's. By the time I took my check ride my only worries were "am I going to say something stupid during the oral," and "am I going to get the wrong gust of wind to fowl up my S-turns/Steep Turns/TAaP," etc. I didn't doubt myself. And a respectable FAA-rated DPE signed his name that I was capable and competent enough to legally fly an airplane with passengers.

After attaining my PPL, I more or less took some time off to rest from the mental pressure of the process. Here and there I took some friends up. Those were good flights too. Possibly changing the groove I was in changed my habits. I think that's normal.

Also, I did my PPL training exclusively in Archers. A few weeks after I got my PPL I took some time to get rated in a 172. Different types of flying. I was renting 172s and Archers based on what was available, and perhaps I was not ready for that. In fact, to my CFI's credit we both agreed that flying the 172s was probably the main reason I "forgot how to land" the Archers, so we decided to stick with the Archers for my Instrument training. Which I was cool with. I'm a fair guy, and there are reasons I am still with this CFI, and this is one of them. He has his shortcomings like everyone does, but he makes good decisions and we have plenty of good days. As for suspending instrument, we did that. We took a lesson or two and just did pattern work to get me back in business. And it worked. Again, my landings are not always greasers, but no one's are.

You'll probably have an answer for all this, and that's fine. Just know that there were more factors involved than just me being incapable. Of course I never mentioned those details before so I can't hold you accountable for knowing them.

I think the core of the situation revolves around him being frustrated at repeating himself, as another reply stated. In which case, things take time. I don't think I should be treated like a career pilot who suddenly made a series of bonehead moves. I'm a student. I'm learning. It's going to click, but I need to get there. If that takes longer than a CFI's patience level allows, I think it's reasonable to believe that isn't necessarily MY fault.

Thanks for replying. All wisdom is good.

 

[k9medic]

Current ACS doesn't want the examiner to hear the horn.

Correct but I want my students (and my son in this case) to understand the concepts associated with pitch, power and control, especially in the AA5 we are flying.

We will do spins (NOT in the Grumman) for exposure as well.

It’s crazy that the commercial rating only wants to see stall indicators.

There was and still is a huge debate regarding slow flight and stall instruction.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MauleSkinner]

Correct but I want my students (and my son in this case) to understand the concepts associated with pitch, power and control, especially in the AA5 we are flying.

We will do spins (NOT in the Grumman) for exposure as well.

It’s crazy that the commercial rating only wants to see stall indicators.

There was and still is a huge debate regarding slow flight and stall instruction.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Good news is that the ACS s a testing document, not a training document.

 

[Clip4]

I'm not so sensitive I can't handle this type of criticism (above). But it does miss the mark in my situation. Not holding it against you.. you weren't there.

While in PPL check ride prep I was beasting all of the required landings. Short field, soft field, normal. Were they always stellar? No, but then again neither are anyone's. By the time I took my check ride my only worries were "am I going to say something stupid during the oral," and "am I going to get the wrong gust of wind to fowl up my S-turns/Steep Turns/TAaP," etc. I didn't doubt myself. And a respectable FAA-rated DPE signed his name that I was capable and competent enough to legally fly an airplane with passengers.

After attaining my PPL, I more or less took some time off to rest from the mental pressure of the process. Here and there I took some friends up. Those were good flights too. Possibly changing the groove I was in changed my habits. I think that's normal.

Also, I did my PPL training exclusively in Archers. A few weeks after I got my PPL I took some time to get rated in a 172. Different types of flying. I was renting 172s and Archers based on what was available, and perhaps I was not ready for that. In fact, to my CFI's credit we both agreed that flying the 172s was probably the main reason I "forgot how to land" the Archers, so we decided to stick with the Archers for my Instrument training. Which I was cool with. I'm a fair guy, and there are reasons I am still with this CFI, and this is one of them. He has his shortcomings like everyone does, but he makes good decisions and we have plenty of good days. As for suspending instrument, we did that. We took a lesson or two and just did pattern work to get me back in business. And it worked. Again, my landings are not always greasers, but no one's are.

You'll probably have an answer for all this, and that's fine. Just know that there were more factors involved than just me being incapable. Of course I never mentioned those details before so I can't hold you accountable for knowing them.

I think the core of the situation revolves around him being frustrated at repeating himself, as another reply stated. In which case, things take time. I don't think I should be treated like a career pilot who suddenly made a series of bonehead moves. I'm a student. I'm learning. It's going to click, but I need to get there. If that takes longer than a CFI's patience level allows, I think it's reasonable to believe that isn't necessarily MY fault.

Thanks for replying. All wisdom is good.

If you didn’t have private pilot proficiency during the practical test you should not have passed. That was not the issue; per you own admission you don’t have student pilot solo proficiency in a 172 today. Go back, do some remedial or more make/model check out, then go back to IR training.

 

[MauleSkinner]

I don't think I should be treated like a career pilot who suddenly made a series of bonehead moves.

How do you think they’re treated?

 

[Albany Tom]

Here's how I see it, for what it's worth. Your CFI is sometimes p*(*ng you off. And I can see why. You already know you're making mistakes, and him having a miserable attitude about it doesn't help. If you were just flying for the fun of it, I think I'd suggest you find another guy. But you seem to be looking at this as a career, so I'm going to give a different answer.

The CIF/student relationship is partly a customer relationship, because you're paying them, that's obvious. But if this guy were a corporate guy that you worked for, giving you recurrent training or whatever, you'd have to suck it up and deal with him. So this could be a learning experience for that. Not knowing the dynamics of the situation, I'd be inclined to ask to talk with him after one of those flights. And I'd ask straight up "are you doing OK?", and if he asked why, I'd ask again "is your life OK, any problems or anything?" And maybe he'd figure out where I was going, and he'd say "Geez, I'm sorry. I'm not getting enough sleep" or his wife is sick, or his dog died or whatever country-western song thing he's got going on. But if he didn't pick up on it, I'd clarify "because you're kind of being a d*(&k with the comments up there." That's just me, my personality.

I don't think it's the words, specifically, but the attitude and tone, and that's tough or impossible to judge 3rd hand. Some people are just naturally rough around the edges. Sometimes I'm one of those people, but it's normally not intentional. People think I'm kidding, but I sometimes say that I don't want to be an a*(&le by accident. And it's true. I don't want to offend someone unintentionally. But sometimes it's OK to do so on purpose. What I'm getting at is that it might be good to figure out if he's being a jerk to you on purpose or by accident, if that matters to you.

As far as screwing things up goes, everybody does. When you're learning new things you're going to screw up more. That's OK. Don't beat yourself up over it, and try not to get wound up too much if others point it out. Maybe they're being jerks. Maybe they don't want you to get complacent or settle for lower skills and end up flying into the ground.

 

[Pinecone]

How does teaching your kids how to fly compare with teaching them how to drive? I would think it's less stressful since you have dual controls in the plane but not in the car, but I haven't been through the process (yet). I just know how much safer I feel in the copilot seat as opposed to the passenger seat of a car, regardless of who's flying or driving at the time.

Most parents who try to teach their children to drive, do so as a parent, not as an instructor. When teaching, you need to go into teacher/instructor mode, no matter what the relationship to the student is.

 

[C310_Dreamer]

Thanks to everyone for their input on this. Aside from the person who continually insisted I should have never passed the Private Pilot check ride, I appreciate you all!

I understand not everything in life is going to be 100% smooth all the time. And I totally realize that I have a hand in frustrating my CFII. Overall, he's taught me a lot and we've had a ton of success stories.

Thanks, almost everyone!

 

[murphey]

“I think the core of the situation revolves around him being frustrated at repeating himself, “

good grief….I can’t count the number of times I’ve taught Computer Science 101 (picka language, any language) and get the same questions all the time, frequently from the same student. Having to explain the same concepts over and over to the class and the next class and the next. Over and over to the same student, even. If I reacted like ….. never mind. The key is to use a different explanation, a different approach for the student to hear it, understand it, then apply it. Of course the advantage I have is we’re not in danger for crashing. A computer, yes, but not the airplane.

I wish I had the option of saying..”would you like fries with that?” when they once again, ask the same question. For the nth time.

 

[Toby Rice]

Hi all! New to the board in hopes of getting some sage advice for an issue I'm having with my CFI. Sorry for the lengthy post.

Background: Got my Private certification last summer, have been in Instrument training since last fall. Same CFI for both processes.

My CFI overall is good, knows his stuff, and genuinely cares for my training. When we get along, things are great. But sometimes he has a bit of a temper and short fuse for patience and it impacts me. He also has a "tough love" style which doesn't always resonate with me. Here are some examples:

Not long after I got my PPL I "forgot how to land," which I understand is not uncommon. Rather than working with me and helping me regain my footing, each crummy landing resulted in yelling, angry comments. "Flat!" "Side-loading!" "Why do you keep side-loading the plane?" Like, dude.. I am not intentionally side-loading the plane. I need to understand what I'm doing to cause it and how to fix it.. geez.

One time more recently, I got a random gust while flaring and it brought my nose down a bit, causing a flat landing. His response was "Why did you bring the nose down?? F**king hell!!" Aside from being cursed at, I was upset that my intelligence was questioned, like I would intentionally nose down that close to the ground. Come on.

Currently I am still getting the hang of talking to ATC on instrument flights. Our recent flight, my long instrument XC, included plenty of frustration on his part when I asked him for help deciphering ATC's messages. Again, I understand this to be perfectly normal. I'm not sure why his default is frustration versus helping.

So here are my questions to you all:
01) These things I struggle with in my examples, they are normal, right? Because there are times I feel like a crappy pilot and it either makes me afraid to fly or takes the joy out of it altogether.

02) Am I being unreasonable in any way here? I mean, I do not need to be babied, but am I asking for anything unreasonable here in how I'm taught/treated?

03) How should I handle this internally to (a) bolster my own self-confidence, and (b) maintain my joy of flying and learning?

I have reason to believe he'll be moving on soon, and like I said before when things are going well I truly like the guy a lot. That being said, I am absolutely not interested in reporting him or anything like that which would ruin his life/career. I also do not think it would be good to ask for a new CFI at this stage of the training (I just need to finish my exam and check ride). I need to generate my own motivation here from within. Sorry again for the lengthy post. So have any of you been in similar situations and how did you handle it?

Thanks for reading and understanding.

Great question

You catch more flies with honey than vinegar, for sure! Encouragement and positive reinforcement is much more effective long term than criticism and negativity. Sure, there’s a time for “hey that definitely might break something” and “do that and we die,” but there’s always a more tactful and chill way to approach things.

Also you’re landing side loaded because you’re looking at the wrong spot during the roundout. DM me for the fix… I won’t clog up the thread here!

good luck

 

[noahfong]

Sometimes the chemistry just diminishes...or never was there but was OK enough to get through the first certificate. But it sounds like whatever worked is barely there if at all. There is nothing wrong with finding another instructor. What has been happening with your landings may be influenced by anxiety caused by all the resulting stress and it would be good to get out from underneath it.

Good luck.

 

[Flying Keys]

Most parents who try to teach their children to drive, do so as a parent, not as an instructor. When teaching, you need to go into teacher/instructor mode, no matter what the relationship to the student is.

True, but the problem there is the teenage student is usually stuck in teenage child mode and could give a rat’s tail-end about your instructor mode. Ask me how I know. Ended many a driving lesson with “we’re done, pull over here and get out” simply on account of attitude - “instructor mode” was funny and off-putting to them, “cringey” as the kids say.

If they try to force me out of it, they don’t get the training, but now the stage is set for reverting back to parent instructor whether you like it or not. 99% of the time, flight instruction is a completely different student-instructor relationship from the word go because that student has sought your expertise, there’s an understood instructional certification/backing by the FAA, and they’re paying for it.