Looking for aircraft recommendations

Palamedes

Palamedes

Pre-Flight
Joined
Nov 1, 2013
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95
Location
Blairsville, GA
Display Name
Display name:
Jason Ellis
So after I get done with all this pilot training I want to get my wife involved and hope that the bug bites her too. :fcross: (I'm pretty sure it will, but Its a slow and steady race..) Anyway, I will eventually want to get my own plane to suit my needs. I know it will be a bit before I do this, and I'll rent for a while until I make darn sure I want to go down this road.. but eventually a plane purchase will be in order.

My mission and needs are that I will be flying back and forth between North Georgia and Central Texas. Probably quite a bit for business, and extended family visits.

I want to do this in relative comfort and would love to be able to do it in under 4.5 hours. I don't know if that's reasonable or not, and in fact that might be a rather tall order as I think it's around 750nm between here and there. It's a 16 hour drive..

I also realize fully that it's not really economically feasible to own your own plane and that any cost savings you get by just buying fuel for your own transportation or the time you save by having a plane at your local airport versus an airline ticket is completely obliterated by the cost of aircraft ownership, but the "fun" factor and freedom has to count for something.

Lets be honest, money wise it will be way cheaper to just fly Delta or something, but that's no where near as fun and the last couple times I flew back and forth on a major carrier it took ALL DAY!

I think the last time I did it it was well over 12 hours starting from my home, to the pre-wheels up fondle by the TSA, to landing and getting in my car and finally getting to where I needed to go. Plus I couldn't believe how tired I was. And that was likely the "fast" time since Atlanta is a Delta hub.. if there had been any connections it would have taken longer.. Done.. Airlines are dead to me..

Simply put, my time is worth more to me than that and I am finally in a place where I can afford to do this.

So with that, I'm looking for suggestions aircraft wise.

At this point, I could easily swing a $1500 a month payment so that's the soft limit I have set during my research period. If it's gonna be more than that then I need to take that into consideration and adjust my plans.. I realize that it's not a vast amount all things considered, but let's use it as a soft cap to work with.

So, to recap;

$1500 a month
750~800nm trip in under 4.5 hours or so.
Room for myself, my wife and some light luggage.. (we have no kids and that wont ever be an issue)
My personal preference is a low wing aircraft.


Thoughts?
 
My Bonanza will do that trip. (I've done it). Typical comparison to driving time is 1/4th the time of driving. I fly a little over 100hrs per year and my "all in" cost is approx 15,000 per year. My normal trip is from Savannah to NE Mississippi. If you're in north Jawja, you're a short hop away from one of the best Bonanza A&P/IAs in the country too. Also, if you're in Jawja, let's get you some stick time in a Bonanza before you run off and buy a Cessna or something :) We'll be flying up to Clayton and Delonghia (or something like that) on Sunday :)
 
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Bonanza, Mooney, 210, Bellanca Super Viking, Cirrus etc.

Mooney probably the most fuel efficient.
Bonanza probably the most plush ride.
210 is a hauler.
Bellanca probably the most bang for buck.
Cirrus most modern, but also most expensive.
 
Comanches while old should not be discounted. Especially the 260C.
 
Must be a record... in 4 minutes you got some decent advice, an offer to check out a good plane, and a connection to a good mechanic!
 
bartmc said:
My Bonanza will do that trip. (I've done it). Typical comparison to driving time is 1/4th the time of driving. I fly a little over 100hrs per year and my "all in" cost is approx 15,000 per year. My normal trip is from Savannah to NE Mississippi. If you're in north Jawja, you're a short hop away from one of the best Bonanza A&P/IAs in the country too. Also, if you're in Jawja, let's get you some stick time in a Bonanza before you run off and buy a Cessna or something :) We'll be flying up to Clayton and Delonghia (or something like that) on Sunday :)
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I'm lovin me some Jawja! We actually just moved here from Austin, OMGitsHot, Texas.. The weather here is better. I'm still very much in the beginning phase of getting my ppl.. But I'll take you up on that when it's time... Thanks!
 
Palamedes said:
I'm still very much in the beginning phase of getting my ppl.. But I'll take you up on that when it's time... Thanks!
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I would probably wait on a purchase of a plane that would meet this mission....
 
bartmc said:
let's get you some stick time in a Bonanza before you run off and buy a Cessna or something :)
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Heh. Them's fightin' words. ;)

Nah not really. A Bo would be nice over that distance.

I tossed Atlanta to Amarillo into Foreflight. That's a two-hopper and 8+ hours in the 182 and just over 100 gallons of fuel at a conservative 13 Gal/Hr (At altitude we consistently see 11.5 but we don't plan for it.) and 130 knots.

I like my cushy 182 seat and the view, and I like it a helluva lot better than the human mailing tube. But a Bo or Deb will get ya there an hour and a half faster than my draggy aeronautical steed of perfection of mediocrity. ;)
 
stratobee said:
Bonanza, Mooney, 210, Bellanca Super Viking, Cirrus etc.
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All will do that as long as that $1500/month budget doesn't include the capital cost of the airplane. $1500/month would pretty well cover the operating/ownership costs of a plane like that flown 75 hours a year or so after you paid cash for the plane.

Might add a 182RG to the list, too -- in fact, pretty much any 250HP-class retractable. After that, it's just a matter of flying them all and seeing which one your wife likes best.

Note that to make that 4+30 run with reasonable IFR reserves, you'll need 6 hours of fuel aboard, which generally eats into the payload of those planes. You'll do fine with only two adults plus baggage, but if you want to take another couple with you, odds are you'll need to short-fuel and make a fuel stop unless you get a great tailwind.
 
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Mooney 231 or 252. Get up in the flight levels with O2 and 180-200kt cruise speeds sipping gas compared to the rest of the class. Don
 
You're in my neck of the woods. Done Abilene to Blairsvlle a few times. Not sure how you feel about experimentals but I've done it in both the Glasair & Velocity nonstop. About a 4.5 hour trip. I agree a Bo would fit the bill as well.
 
asgcpa said:
I would probably wait on a purchase of a plane that would meet this mission....
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Absolutely. This isn't a rush out and do it kind of thing. I have the rest of my life to work towards this and I'm not in a hurry. I'm a "slow and steady" kind of guy anyway.

denverpilot said:
Heh. Them's fightin' words. ;)

Nah not really. A Bo would be nice over that distance.

I tossed Atlanta to Amarillo into Foreflight. That's a two-hopper and 8+ hours in the 182 and just over 100 gallons of fuel at a conservative 13 Gal/Hr (At altitude we consistently see 11.5 but we don't plan for it.) and 130 knots.

I like my cushy 182 seat and the view, and I like it a helluva lot better than the human mailing tube. But a Bo or Deb will get ya there an hour and a half faster than my draggy aeronautical steed of perfection of mediocrity. ;)
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A lot of folks love their 172's and 182's.. They get pretty high praise.. I've flown in a 150, 152 and a 172 on several different occasions and in each I was amazed at how small inside they are.. In the 150/152 you get down right friendly with your pilot/copilot.. heh Is the 182 bigger inside? What about other planes?

That's another consideration I didn't mention.. I'm 6'2", 250lbs of "big'ol'boy".. "fluffly" but not too fluffly..

Tom-D said:
If I were making this trip with my wife and light baggage I would be looking at a LongEZ or a Cozy.

http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_830548_LongEZ+By+Builder.html
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I actually LOVE the look of the LongEZ or Velocity and I must admit a home built/experimental plane doesn't scare me at all.. but, I would either want to be the original builder, or have that thing thoroughly vetted by someone who knew everything there was to know about one.

Plus I'm not sure that style of plane is for beginners.. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

Ron Levy said:
All will do that as long as that $1500/month budget doesn't include the capital cost of the airplane. $1500/month would pretty well cover the operating/ownership costs of a plane like that flown 75 hours a year or so after you paid cash for the plane.

Might add a 182RG to the list, too -- in fact, pretty much any 250HP-class retractable. After that, it's just a matter of flying them all and seeing which one your wife likes best.

Note that to make that 4+30 run with reasonable IFR reserves, you'll need 6 hours of fuel aboard, which generally eats into the payload of those planes. You'll do fine with only two adults plus baggage, but if you want to take another couple with you, odds are you'll need to short-fuel and make a fuel stop unless you get a great tailwind.
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Actually, most likely my company would pay for the operating costs and I'd foot the bill for the plane.. or vice versa.. This is as much a way to park money in an asset as anything else.. Honestly i'm not really worried about costs too much =)

0luke1 said:
Columbia 400
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So the Columbia's are very nice planes. I got to sit in a brand new Cessna 400 just the other day.. holy cow.. that's a nice machine.. but at $800k or so that's a pricey machine. Extremely nice though. If that's anything like the Columbia 400 (which Cessna just bought right?) then wow.. those are great.

It looks like you can get nice used 350's for around $250k or used 400's around the $300k mark. That's a lot of money and might be tough to get approved by "She who makes decisions"..

Velocity173 said:
You're in my neck of the woods. Done Abilene to Blairsvlle a few times. Not sure how you feel about experimentals but I've done it in both the Glasair & Velocity nonstop. About a 4.5 hour trip. I agree a Bo would fit the bill as well.
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I have zero issue about experimentals because I'm new to the industry and am largely ignorant of it. I have spoken with several people in person who have built their own planes and they all tell me that they feel their aircraft is actually safer than something you buy from a manufacturer because they know every rivet, bolt, rod..etc.. That doesn't actually make it safer, but its good they feel safe..

I've also been surprised in each case how nice the plane was. These aircraft looked like professionally made machines. I was amazed. And like I said previously, I really like the look of the Velocity. Getting a TXL would be pretty neat.
 
yakdriver said:
Mooney 231 or 252. Get up in the flight levels with O2 and 180-200kt cruise speeds sipping gas compared to the rest of the class. Don
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Sorry don I didn't mean to skip you..

I know absolutely nothing about the Mooney.. Never sat in them or even seen one up close. But they do seem to get praised quite often as being great planes. Are they completely out of production?
 
Palamedes said:
A lot of folks love their 172's and 182's.. They get pretty high praise.. I've flown in a 150, 152 and a 172 on several different occasions and in each I was amazed at how small inside they are.. In the 150/152 you get down right friendly with your pilot/copilot.. heh Is the 182 bigger inside? What about other planes?

That's another consideration I didn't mention.. I'm 6'2", 250lbs of "big'ol'boy".. "fluffly" but not too fluffly..
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182 is where they finally get big enough to be comfortable. ;) I'm 5' 11" and was pushing the underside of 240 before the flu knocked off 13 lbs. ;) (Honestly my weight wanders between 220 and about 235.)

A 150 is a designed torture device for anyone over 6'. It's designed to teach you to learn to love your knees in your left nostril. ;)
 
Being practical, you will want to stop once flying a piston single on a 750 mile trip.;) Even with 150 knot ground speed it's a 5 hour trip. That is a LONG time to sit in most general aviation airplanes, maybe not the first time when you're excited about making the trip, but after a couple trips you are going to want a bathroom, leg stretching break. :D
Of course winds will enter into the equation, assume west bound will take an extra 30 minutes in summer to an hour or more in winter. And of course coming home in the winter, get up as high as you can and haul butt all the way without stopping!:yes:
I'm a Cessna guy, but I do think if you are comfortable in a Mooney, they are built for this type of flying, two people, some bags, good speed and fuel economy. I have no Mooney experience so I can't tell you which one, but several guys here are experts.;)
It's funny I know a guy that bought a new Phenom 100 and has decided the range is too short to make his normal 1200 mile trip non-stop. :mad2: I'd hate to discover that AFTER I bought! :no:
OOPS, it just read you are a full fugured guy, try the Mooney on before you get to carried away.;) Maybe a 182RG would do it! Much roomier, not quite as efficient, but 150+ knots on 13-14 GPH ain't bad! :D
 
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bartmc said:
My Bonanza ... (will) fly a little over 100hrs per year and my "all in" cost is approx 15,000 per year.
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THAT is impressive!!!!
And that DOES include:
Annuals,
Maintenance, engine, prop, avionics reserves
=== P & I ===
Parking
Insurance
Licensing fees
subscriptions
etc.?

For a Bo, I would figure that to be closer to $38,000 (or $35,000 to $40,000 range) {~ $3200/month }

Impressive
 
My 182 Q is as follows: I am using 100 hours per year, but it's probably closer to 60 or 70. :D
Fuel 12 X $5.50 X 100 = $6600.00
Annual with minor squawks and 2 oil changes $3000.00
Hangar $500 X 12 = $6000.00 I am paying too much, but it's all that's available at FTY, if my son takes it to school it will be $275.00 per month.:D
Subscriptions $500.00
Insurance $1500.00
So, $17K if I flew 100 hours per year would be my cash outlay.
I doubt he included reserves, most don't and I certainly don't, I figure that's part of the depreciation. But I didn't include upgrades either, new interior, 530W, new windows.;)
oldShar said:
THAT is impressive!!!!
And that DOES include:
Annuals,
Maintenance, engine, prop, avionics reserves
=== P & I ===
Parking
Insurance
Licensing fees
subscriptions
etc.?

For a Bo, I would figure that to be closer to $38,000 (or $35,000 to $40,000 range) {~ $3200/month }

Impressive
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Get a list of possible planes.

Join the type club representing those on the list.

Beg, borrow, steal a ride in each one. Most type clubs have some kind of find a ride program. Better yet, get your spouse to go along.

Narrow the field to one or two types.

Go shopping
 
Palamedes said:
Sorry don I didn't mean to skip you..

I know absolutely nothing about the Mooney.. Never sat in them or even seen one up close. But they do seem to get praised quite often as being great planes. Are they completely out of production?
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Not a 231. Just say no to that engine/turbo combination. The 252 is better.

The 201 is my Mooney of choice, unless you can swing an Ovation.
 
I'm fluffy too. My wife would kill me if I called her fluffy, so I won't. Until my airline's fortunes changed, I was looking at the following:

I'd consider a 182 as a base. Any other plane would be described in relation to it. I can rent a 1999 for $110 dry. Nice plane. My local mechanics are big into preferring the restarts over the older models.

I love Pipers. I was looking at PA-32 models, retract and fixed. Very wide cabin made it comfortable and cut into the speed. They seem to be the Rodney Dangerfield of the group. Few get excited about flying a Cherokee 6, Lance or Saratoga.

Beechcraft are very nice. The one I flew wasn't as spacious as I'd like. It was fun to fly. I found the A-36 to be very nice and my wife was willing to sit in the back. The plane has a huge following.

I sat in a Cirrus. I was very comfortable. Prices on used ones are coming down. The SR-20 was in the same speed class as a 182. The SR-22 was more expensive, but it was built to travel. The question is useful load.

I love the look of a Mooney and I've flown both the vintage and a K model. You'll either love it or hate it when you go to sit in it. As a big guy, I can still fit in it but it can be tight with a large passenger sitting next to you. BUT, it's no tighter than a Bonanza. Before you discount it, take a flight in one.
 
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1981 and up 231s had the better engine and had most of the cooling problems addressed. The 252 is a much better airplane but it costs a lot more. Mooneys aren't that tight. It's just that you sit lower with your legs almost straight out. Flying in Texas in the summer is no fun unless you can get high so the turbo is nice. For your mission the Mooney will take two and a lot of baggage at 180-190kts on 12gph in the low to high teens with O2 non stop. It will also fit your budget. The only thing I have against Mooneys is that the controls are heavy and they are not much fun to go out and yank and bank. But that also makes it rock solid on a cross country. Mooney has just been bought so the parts supply will be flowing again. I have a friend with a 252 and he hasn't had any parts problems. Don
 
I would look for a 201 mooney in nice condition. Easy to fly, speedy, Comfortable for two people and light baggage, ( picture a 911 porche interior.) I would stay far away from a turbo anything. Big expense can be incurred and not necessary.
 
I gotta say too...Bonanza! I am still impressed by the stability and rock-solid smooth flying characteristics of my Bo. See if you can get a ride sometime in one, or if you're near Vegas, look me up and I'll take you up.

The Bonanzas are really nice Cadillacs!
 
Mooney, but I'm kinda partial.
 
I love mooney's, obviously, but if you're "fluffy", it may be awkward getting in and out. I'm partial to 182's. I think they are a great all around plane. The RG is faster, but I'm not sold on their reliability, but there are people on here who swear by them.
 
Right now I think I'm looking hard at Cirrus and the Bonanzas. I really like the technological interior of the Cirrus but I don't know if it's "as much airplane" as the Bonanza.

A new Cirrus SR22 is comparable to the Bonanza G36 correct? (Though to be honest the Bonanza looks like a lot more airplane.. )

Also; with Cirrus you pretty much have SR20, SR22, SR22t.. done.

Bonanza's have G35, S35, V35, V35B, F35A, A36, V35TC, F33A, V35B, A36, B36TC..etc.. *boggle*
Can someone give me the 10,000 foot view of the differences and what I should be looking for? controller and trade a plane have a lot of nice looking Bo's for sale but I want to make sure I know what I'm looking at.

The simple fact of the matter is the "bonanza" forums and the people that are pro-bo, have some pretty harsh things to say about Cirrus.. hehe But then so does the Cessna dealership I talked to when I was looking at the 400..

Is that due to marketshare jealousy or are there really "serious issues" with the cirrus? (So much of it just seems like opinion..)
 
go to any brand specific forum and you'll see lots of bias. I've never flow a Cirrus, but my takeaway from what I've read is this--expensive to maintain and the chute may instill false confidence to pilots. whether or not that's true, I don't know, but that's the general feeling I've gotten from reading about them on this and other forums.
 
There are no real issues with the Cirrii. They've just sold a lot of these high performance planes to sometimes not very experienced pilots that then go out and kill themselves in them. Exactly the same thing happened to the Bonanza in the 50's and 60's. Plane is fine.

In fact, in almost every case I can recall with the "widowmaker" planes and "dangerous" types, it comes down to bad proficiency in type. Case in hand were the MU-2's that killed more pilots than any other turbine twin. FAA almost grounded them permanently until the MU-2 club begged them to instate a mandatory type specific training. Today, just a few years later, it has the best safety record of any turbine twin.
 
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Oh I like the DA42 too.. =) Its kind of a sexy machine I think.. but again never flown in one or even come up close..

The Cessna guy I talked to who claimed to have flown in them said "Diamonds are a kite.. never fly in those, they are dangerous..".. feh whatever.. He was just trying to sell a cessna.
 
Flew in an F33 the other day. First time flying one and Im 6'4 275 lbs and I was shocked at the room it had. Always heard they were a little tighter than pipers but the leg room is really nice. Had no issues with width either. Owner is about 6' 200lbs so it might have been an issue for my dad and me together since we are identical size. Little thing is a rocket too. Saw an average of 170knots coming on the initial and immediate return leg of our trip. Others may know more but from what Ive heard I would stay away from the V-tails as a newer pilot. Said to be alot more yaw in them and a little trickier to fly. Many people could give you more info on that. As I said im not very knowledgable on bonanza's as the only thing similar Ive got multiple hours in is a saratoga. If I were buying a single engine plane for that type of mission I would be looking hard at them. Super impressed.
 
The BE36 seats 6 but useful load will be similar to a pre-G5 Cirrus. An SR22 is slightly faster but I would say just consider them the same. The BE35 has a pronounced Dutch roll during turbulence which some (my kids) find uncomfortable. My friend's BE35 has a placard warning about loading and my friend has to be careful to not get the CG too far to the rear if carrying 4 + luggage. The Cirrus is difficult to load out of CG. An SR22 is slightly faster than a BE35 but not in any meaningful way. The gear on late model 35's and the 36 have a high extension speed resulting in much more flexibility coming into the pattern than a pre-G5 Cirrus. I think the Cirrus is better in bumps. I think the Bonanza is better to hand fly (easier to trim) since the Cirrus is sensitive in pitch and the trim is quick. Ingress and egress is much easier in the Cirrus than a BE35. The 35 and 36 Bonanzas are better on grass fields (larger tires, shocks, no wheel fairings).

I find Cirrus maintenance similar to other well equipped planes. However, just about every Cirrus has lots of goodies and lots of goodies means lots of expense from chart subscriptions to repair. The exception is the BRS system. That adds about $1K annualized expense since it is a 10 year item at about $10K. I like having the BRS system but you need to form your own opinion.

Set a price target and look at competing planes. For Cirrus join COPA and ask questions. There have been lots of updates and there is a huge difference between different model SR22's. Do a similar thing for Bonanza. I know my friend can tell you exactly why he bought the particular year BE35 he did and what the differences are from earlier versions.

Finally, generally you are better off buying a plane with the avionics you want than buying a cheaper plane and upgrading. Let someone else take the depreciation.

Oh yeah, resist buying more than you can afford. Better to fly a 152 each weekend and enjoy it than to own a Lear that never leaves the hangar.

Just my 2 cents.



Palamedes said:
Right now I think I'm looking hard at Cirrus and the Bonanzas. I really like the technological interior of the Cirrus but I don't know if it's "as much airplane" as the Bonanza.

A new Cirrus SR22 is comparable to the Bonanza G36 correct? (Though to be honest the Bonanza looks like a lot more airplane.. )

Also; with Cirrus you pretty much have SR20, SR22, SR22t.. done.

Bonanza's have G35, S35, V35, V35B, F35A, A36, V35TC, F33A, V35B, A36, B36TC..etc.. *boggle*
Can someone give me the 10,000 foot view of the differences and what I should be looking for? controller and trade a plane have a lot of nice looking Bo's for sale but I want to make sure I know what I'm looking at.

The simple fact of the matter is the "bonanza" forums and the people that are pro-bo, have some pretty harsh things to say about Cirrus.. hehe But then so does the Cessna dealership I talked to when I was looking at the 400..

Is that due to marketshare jealousy or are there really "serious issues" with the cirrus? (So much of it just seems like opinion..)
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