Looking at buying a Cherokee, coupla Q's

bigred177

bigred177

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bigred
I was talking to the owner of the Cherokee 180 I have been renting for ~1.5 years or so and he has decided he needs out of the airplane ownership business. He offered me an absolutely screaming deal on her. I have a few questions.

1) I am not instrument rated. I was planning on doing that this summer. The Cherokee has a Garmin GPS 150 and a VOR, but no glideslope. I know I can do most of my training with that but how much would it take to get a glideslope in it? It has two KX-170 radios in it and I seem to remember being told that there is an ILS indicator that also acts as a GS receiver for the 170. Also, it doesn't have DME. Would it be worth it to get DME installed or just keep the GPS 150 IFR current (if I can use it for DME). What else do I need to make her a good instrument platform?

2) Minus hangar and insurance, what does it cost you guys with Cherokees to operate them?

3) What would an IFR capable 1967 180D with a mid-time engine, slight damage history, and bad paint and fair interior be worth? I have seen a few online in the $30-40k range but that seems high.

I'll think of more later. This should get it started. Thanks guys.
 
I figure about $75 in raw cost per hour. If I include insurance and hangar Im sure that number is higher than what I am renting mine out for right now.

56-fuel (current 5.65)
9-engine reserve (1800 TBO)
11-(100 hour/annual) =$76/hour ...the thing burns 10 GPH mybe gas is better where you are.

Forget the DME, get a G496 or other IFR GPS or something, the cost of installation for a DME is about what a good one will cost you used.
 
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I'm not IFR rated, so take than into account.

1 - Having an IFR GPS is a big plus. From what I understand (never done it), upgrading the OBS head to a KI-214 with give you a ILS (there may be antennae involved, I'm not sure).

2 - $620 a year for insurance. I plan on 10gph for fuel flow start to stop. $1200/yr for annual and any identified squawks.
Over 4 years I've replaced the crap Kelley alternator twice before putting in a Plane Power (don't ever buy anything from Kelley), total $2100 (from doing it three times).
No other parts of significance have needed replacement or repair.
Oil changes, PM, and minor squawks, $700/yr.

3 - Even with the IFR GPS, between mid time engine and bad paint, I would say $30k max. That said, there is some value to knowing the history of the aircraft, and some value to it being local.
With mine, the owner would not budge, but I figured I would spend at least a few grand looking at out of town planes. Plus, my A&P (whom I trust implicitly) was able to pre-buy.
The A&P who maintained it has a great reputation, so I was pretty sure there hadn't been any pencil-whipped annuals.
I decided the local knowledge and proximity was worth at least a couple grand, and we closed the deal.
 
Why you guys planning for 10 gph? In my PA-28-160 I planned 8 and almost always came in less than that. Still, to be conservative, I kept planning at 8 gph. It's not like you gonna get anywhere fast anyway.

The insurance premiums as listed above seems spot on.

With that ins quote about what I paid, I came in at $55/hr when 100LL hovered around a buck/gal less than now.

For a primary IFR trainer I would consider the GS needle. IIRC, a 2nd KX-170GS would be around $1,100 installed.

And be sure to cozy up with your A&P to perform owner-assist mx. For the cost of parts and a nice dinner for two + a coupla AMUs, you got an airworthy plane and knowledge to boot.
 
Richard said:
Why you guys planning for 10 gph? In my PA-28-160 I planned 8 and almost always came in less than that. Still, to be conservative, I kept planning at 8 gph. It's not like you gonna get anywhere fast anyway.

The insurance premiums as listed above seems spot on.

With that ins quote about what I paid, I came in at $55/hr when 100LL hovered around a buck/gal less than now.

For a primary IFR trainer I would consider the GS needle. IIRC, a 2nd KX-170GS would be around $1,100 installed.

And be sure to cozy up with your A&P to perform owner-assist mx. For the cost of parts and a nice dinner for two + a coupla AMUs, you got an airworthy plane and knowledge to boot.
Click to expand...

Clay's is a rental. When you're paying wet hobbs, there isn't much of a reason to throttle back. And dare I say that most pilots that rent likely run the mixture a tad rich...
 
I have about 100 hrs in 2 different Cherokee 180s and every time but once I was within .2hrs when I divided my gallons used by 10.

I'm pretty sure the GPS 150 is at least enroute IFR capable isn't it?
 
FlyNE said:
Clay's is a rental. When you're paying wet hobbs, there isn't much of a reason to throttle back. And dare I say that most pilots that rent likely run the mixture a tad rich...
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That's right, I forgot about Rental Power. Thanks for the reminder.

AFA throttling back, I used my flights to try to be most accurate in estimating elapsed time, fuel burn, etc at diff power settings.
 
PilotAlan said:
Yeah, but the OP is talking about a PA-28-180
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My friend with a 180 plans for 10gph. However, there is no requirement to run the 180 at 75% power, there is the option to run at 55% or 65% lean to save a bit of fuel.
 
PilotAlan said:
I'm not IFR rated, so take than into account.

1 - Having an IFR GPS is a big plus. From what I understand (never done it), upgrading the OBS head to a KI-214 with give you a ILS (there may be antennae involved, I'm not sure).
Click to expand...

Can't disagree with this, but the boxes are breathtakingly expensive. Probably depends on your mission whether or not you want to go this route.

PilotAlan said:
2 - $620 a year for insurance. I plan on 10gph for fuel flow start to stop. $1200/yr for annual and any identified squawks.
Over 4 years I've replaced the crap Kelley alternator twice before putting in a Plane Power (don't ever buy anything from Kelley), total $2100 (from doing it three times).
No other parts of significance have needed replacement or repair.
Oil changes, PM, and minor squawks, $700/yr.
Click to expand...

This all sounds about right. My insurance runs a bit more, but it is a different part of the country etc... You can certainly get an insurance quote easily enough. My annuals tend to run between $1K and $2k. Costs will change considerably depending on whether you hangar it or not.

PilotAlan said:
3 - Even with the IFR GPS, between mid time engine and bad paint, I would say $30k max. That said, there is some value to knowing the history of the aircraft, and some value to it being local.
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I have to agree big-time. Looking for an aircraft, even a Cherokee, takes time and money. Having the mechanic who will maintain it do the annual before your purchase can save you big-time in the long run. You should read the thread about the poor pilot who bought a Cardinal and had spar corrosion on the first annual. Painful.

My 150 ran about $600 a year when I owned it. I had another mechanic at a nearby field claim it need $7K in work before he'd sign off on it. Like I said, having your mechanic give a really close inspection prior to purchase can save you a lot of money and grief.
 
You're going to spend about $10-15k a year on the Cherokee.
 
bigred177 said:
1) I am not instrument rated. I was planning on doing that this summer. The Cherokee has a Garmin GPS 150 and a VOR, but no glideslope. I know I can do most of my training with that but how much would it take to get a glideslope in it? It has two KX-170 radios in it and I seem to remember being told that there is an ILS indicator that also acts as a GS receiver for the 170. Also, it doesn't have DME. Would it be worth it to get DME installed or just keep the GPS 150 IFR current (if I can use it for DME). What else do I need to make her a good instrument platform?
Click to expand...

When I first got the cherokee ('69 180D more than 10 yrs ago) the Garmin 4xx line was far too expensive for me and the type of IFR flying (light fog only). The installed Narco 12D radios were pretty much shot, no VOR at all. I replaced one of the Narco's with the TKM 12 slide-in replacement. Replaced the other one with the Apollo/UPSAT/Garmin SL30 and a $600 TKM-60 VOR/ILS/GS indicator. As much as I wanted the Garmin/Mid-Continent indicator, the difference of $1500 was a deciding factor.

2) Minus hangar and insurance, what does it cost you guys with Cherokees to operate them?
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If you have to ask....But seriously folks, it depends entirely on
a. price of fuel
b. how much flying you do
c. how much you want to spend on other things.
d. how are you buying the cherokee? Cash? Finance? First-born child?

My birthday was last January. And just what did I get myself for my birthday? A Whelen LED landing light for the cherokee.

I really need to get a life.

3) What would an IFR capable 1967 180D with a mid-time engine, slight damage history, and bad paint and fair interior be worth? I have seen a few online in the $30-40k range but that seems high.
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Check the "evaluator" in both Trade-A-Plane and AOPA. AOPA tends to be high but both will give you an idea of the market. Also, pay attention to how long a cherokee stays on the market at a particular price.

And, as recently discussed, get all the details before making any decisions or negotiating:

1. the FAA CD/DVD of all 337s and such
2. read the logs IN DETAIL
3. have the AP who'll be working on it read the logs
4. pull all the ADs on the engine, airframe, accessories and compare to the logs. What? Don't know about the ADs or how to get copies? Welcome to owning an airplane! Make sure you bookmark the appropriate FAA locations.
 
How long ago in calendar years was the motor last overhauled etc.? I tend to treat them as "run-out" until proven otherwise when they are mid-time. Ex. A 900 hour motor redone in 1980 is not mid-time. I believe Lycoming uses 12 years as a guideline on that.

Good luck man, I hope it works out . Nothing like opening a hangar so see your very own airplane!
 
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Without knowing what your screaming deal number is, it's hard to tell if you're better off buying this one and putting money into avionics, or if you're better off buying one that already has what you need. But I'd guess it's the latter. I don't know anyone that's put money into avionics, or paint or interiors that got it back when they sold.
 
We have a Cherokee 180 here where I teach, and I can't for the life of me figure out why it's not more popular. It's faster than the 172s with about the same operating expenses, and can carry more.

Ryan
 
Trapper John said:
Without knowing what your screaming deal number is, it's hard to tell if you're better off buying this one and putting money into avionics, or if you're better off buying one that already has what you need. But I'd guess it's the latter. I don't know anyone that's put money into avionics, or paint or interiors that got it back when they sold.
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+1
Only way to buy em is run-out or pimped out IMO
 
Richard said:
Why you guys planning for 10 gph? In my PA-28-160 I planned 8 and almost always came in less than that. Still, to be conservative, I kept planning at 8 gph. It's not like you gonna get anywhere fast anyway.

The insurance premiums as listed above seems spot on.

With that ins quote about what I paid, I came in at $55/hr when 100LL hovered around a buck/gal less than now.

For a primary IFR trainer I would consider the GS needle. IIRC, a 2nd KX-170GS would be around $1,100 installed.

And be sure to cozy up with your A&P to perform owner-assist mx. For the cost of parts and a nice dinner for two + a coupla AMUs, you got an airworthy plane and knowledge to boot.
Click to expand...

My Cherokee 180 was pretty close to 10gph at all times. Made fuel planning pretty easy too: 5 hours of fuel available.
 
bigred177 said:
1) I am not instrument rated. I was planning on doing that this summer. The Cherokee has a Garmin GPS 150 and a VOR, but no glideslope. I know I can do most of my training with that but how much would it take to get a glideslope in it? It has two KX-170 radios in it and I seem to remember being told that there is an ILS indicator that also acts as a GS receiver for the 170. Also, it doesn't have DME. Would it be worth it to get DME installed or just keep the GPS 150 IFR current (if I can use it for DME). What else do I need to make her a good instrument platform?
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I guess you realize that either an ILS with GS or a WAAS LPV GPS is required to complete the "Precision Approach" task for the IR practical test. My off-the-top-of-the-head guess would be $2K to all GS -- add the GS receiver and antenna, replace the non-GS #1 CDI with a GS CDI, and wire it all together.

DME is not worth installing if you have an IFR GPS, but I'm not sure the Garmin 150 is IFR-approved. If it's not, you can probably buy a used IFR GPS and have it installed for about the same cost as installing a DME, and get a lot more utility for only a few more bucks.

In any event, ask your local avionics shop for an estimate.

2) Minus hangar and insurance, what does it cost you guys with Cherokees to operate them?
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The cost of operating a Cherokee won't differ significantly from a Cessna 172 or Grumman Cheetah/Tiger or Beech Sport/Sundowner. If you email me (and only email -- no posts, no PM's, no smoke signals, no ESP thought waves), I'll send you a paper I wrote on the ownership costs of a simple 4-seater like that based on my nearly 35 years of aircraft ownership. And with the same engine as a 180 Cherokee, I flight plan/budget for 10gph in my Tiger.

3) What would an IFR capable 1967 180D with a mid-time engine, slight damage history, and bad paint and fair interior be worth? I have seen a few online in the $30-40k range but that seems high.
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Can't help you there.
 
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Trapper John said:
Without knowing what your screaming deal number is, it's hard to tell if you're better off buying this one and putting money into avionics, or if you're better off buying one that already has what you need. But I'd guess it's the latter. I don't know anyone that's put money into avionics, or paint or interiors that got it back when they sold.
Click to expand...

My philosophy exactly. Buy as much cherry and whistles you can afford - all that depreciation is in your pocket.
 
RyanShort1 said:
We have a Cherokee 180 here where I teach, and I can't for the life of me figure out why it's not more popular. It's faster than the 172s with about the same operating expenses, and can carry more.
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Yeah, but 1 door...
-- Pete
 
You guys are going to have to forgive the 10 posts I'm about to make. I don't know how to quote multiple threads in one.

murphey said:
If you have to ask....But seriously folks, it depends entirely on
a. price of fuel
b. how much flying you do
c. how much you want to spend on other things.
d. how are you buying the cherokee? Cash? Finance? First-born child?


Check the "evaluator" in both Trade-A-Plane and AOPA. AOPA tends to be high but both will give you an idea of the market. Also, pay attention to how long a cherokee stays on the market at a particular price.

And, as recently discussed, get all the details before making any decisions or negotiating:

1. the FAA CD/DVD of all 337s and such
2. read the logs IN DETAIL
3. have the AP who'll be working on it read the logs
4. pull all the ADs on the engine, airframe, accessories and compare to the logs. What? Don't know about the ADs or how to get copies? Welcome to owning an airplane! Make sure you bookmark the appropriate FAA locations.
Click to expand...

The cost to operate question was more of a what do you budget for yourself hourly for things like annual, engine, maintenance, ect. Not so much with fuel and everything.

I know this will change, but I feel like right now I just want to get a good IFR bird and get my rating. Maybe then turn around and sell it and not be out much more than the cost of fuel for getting my rating and some IFR time.

I will check out the trade a plane price thing, but I don't have an AOPA membership anymore so I can't do that one. But thanks for letting me know about TAP.
 
Clay, the owner is getting the times and dates together so I don't know on that one yet. The engine has about 900 hrs on it though. I have about 40 hrs in this plane and it does not use much oil, but we'll see on how old it is.

Trapper John said:
Without knowing what your screaming deal number is, it's hard to tell if you're better off buying this one and putting money into avionics, or if you're better off buying one that already has what you need. But I'd guess it's the latter. I don't know anyone that's put money into avionics, or paint or interiors that got it back when they sold.
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He said he would sell it to me for <$20k. I don't plan on making this a pretty plane, just a functional one(no new paint and interior). Whatever it takes to make it IFR-able is all I'm wanting to do right now.
 
Ryan, I don't get it either. I love everything about the Cherokee, great planes. They're not used near as often as the Cessnas here either.

Ron, I do, that's why I was wanting the cheapest way to get precision approach capabilities. The way I understand it, the GS CDI acts as the receiver. You just hook them up and probably run an antenna and you're good to go. After thinking about it I keep drifting more towards the GPS being a GPS 155. It would be nice if it was then I could already have that out of the way.
 
bigred177 said:
Ryan, I don't get it either. I love everything about the Cherokee, great planes. They're not used near as often as the Cessnas here either.
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In my FBO, Cherokees rack hours, while a nice leaseback 172N sits unused. Heck I'm even not checked out in it, so I can't rent it. And it's all because the 172 goes for $135/hr, which Cherokee goes for $130/hr wet :-)
 
Trapper John said:
Without knowing what your screaming deal number is, it's hard to tell if you're better off buying this one and putting money into avionics, or if you're better off buying one that already has what you need. But I'd guess it's the latter. I don't know anyone that's put money into avionics, or paint or interiors that got it back when they sold.
Click to expand...
I do. But, he didn't get a penny for the airframe. :wink2:
 
bigred177 said:
The cost to operate question was more of a what do you budget for yourself hourly for things like annual, engine, maintenance, ect. Not so much with fuel and everything.
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I plan for $1000 (1 AMU) for the annual, $50/quarter for the oil change (sometimes I do it, but it always get done during the annual). Other than that, I don't budget. If I did, I'd be horrified.

Other plan for $10/hr for an overhaul. I just expect on cashing a CD when I need to overhaul.
 
bigred177 said:
He said he would sell it to me for <$20k. I don't plan on making this a pretty plane, just a functional one(no new paint and interior). Whatever it takes to make it IFR-able is all I'm wanting to do right now.
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That's an really good price assuming the logs are all there and the pre-buy doesn't show something drastically wrong.

Make sure the ADs have been addressed.
 
My Warrior ends up costing me around 8-10 grand a year, sometimes a little more.

Finding someone to take it off your hands, in todays market, isn't all that easy. Think of yourself not flying at all, yet maintaining that Cherokee because you can't find a buyer. That is happening to a lot of people.

John
 
The "how big a deal" answer probably depends on the pilot's family tree, and specifically the number of generations removed from the pygmy tribe from which he descended. Or orangutans here, in which case it's a really big deal.

steingar said:
I've had it both ways, and it just isn't that big a deal. Were I routinely taking 4 aloft it might be, but it's only a Cherokee.
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If you don't have an approach certified GPS, DME is really useful. We don't have either in the club's Arrow and I really felt handicapped without it on a flight earler this year. Really limited the approaches that were available. Get one.

Then, the club's 172N has a Garmin 430 and DME. Really adds to the flexibility.
 
wabower said:
The "how big a deal" answer probably depends on the pilot's family tree, and specifically the number of generations removed from the pygmy tribe from which he descended. Or orangutans here, in which case it's a really big deal.
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Nothing genetic about it. Just lay off the twinkies and everything will turn out just fine.

Under $20K is a very good deal for a functioning Cherokee 180 with a midtime engine, at least in my often less than humble opinion. Sounds like it hasn't far to go for the IFR. And the OP has time in it. I'm having a hard time seeing a down side to this particular transaction.
 
bigred177 said:
Ron, I do, that's why I was wanting the cheapest way to get precision approach capabilities. The way I understand it, the GS CDI acts as the receiver. You just hook them up and probably run an antenna and you're good to go.
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Some, like the Narco Nav 122, a complete VOR/LOC/GS receiver/converter/display in one box, do. Others, like the King KN53, have the GS receiver (optional - not in all KN53's) in the VOR receiver box and a separate CDI that is just a CDI. And still others like the old Narco Mark 12 nav/comms require a separate GS receiver like the UGR-2 along with a CDI to display the data.
 
Ghery said:
Then, the club's 172N has a Garmin 430 and DME. Really adds to the flexibility.
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Unless you're talking about GPS outages, the only thing the DME adds to a GNS430's capability is the ability to fly the VOR/DME or TACAN Z RWY 15 approach at KMTN and the VOR/DME or TACAN RWY 10 at KWAL. AFAIK, there are no other IFR procedures in the country which addition of a DME to a 430 allows you to fly, and there are better options at both those airports you can fly with a 430 without DME.
 
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