Long term plan to transition to Malibu.

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TwoZulu

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TwoZulu
Hi All,

I just got back into aviation after a few year break.
I have the most amazing wife who is willing to move across the country to live at an airpark in Wyoming. We purchased a live in hanger in March.

I got back in this year purchasing a Just Highlander and having a blast with it.
I still have a business in North Carolina, but I can mostly work remote.

My long term (2-3 years Max) goal is to keep the highlander and purchase an early Malibu for business use to travel back an forth from Wyoming to NC about 1200nm.

Current experience:
300 hrs in high performance gliders.
Mostly retract.
150 hrs in the Highlander.

I need to get my IFR and I know that Highlander to Malibu is too big of a jump.
So my question is, what would be a good intermediate plane to get my IFR, complex and high-performance ratings and ready my skills for transition to the Malibu?

One consideration is that my ownership of this plane would be fairly short lived (1 to 3 years) and hoping to loose as littles as possible sell quickly. I plan on putting in a lot of flying time.
Mission:
Train for IFR.
About 5 to 6 trips to NC each year.
Hopefully 150+ hours total per year.
4 seat is fine at this time.
At least 150kts
Complex / High Performance.
Budget: 75 to 175K.

Any input would be appreciated!
Thanks,
Bob
 
Did you check on insurance, if you plan to insure?
Yay for awesome wives.
 
Well, I was kind of waiting on suggestions before checking insurance.
Yes insurance does play into the equation. Most recommendations I have seen on forums have included pluses and minuses including insurance costs.
From what I have seen Insurance companies look for min 600 or total hrs and so many hours of IFR, Complex and high-performance for the Malibu.
This is what I want to use this aircraft for, to build those hrs.
Insurance for this aircraft needs to be taken into account.
If I find the right aircraft and insurance is ridiculous I may choose to self insure.
I don't plan on purchasing until spring so I will be putting more hrs on the Highlander.
 
serious question because I don’t know anything about gliders but what is a ‘high performance’ glider and how is it different than a regular glider?
 
Just get the malibu 450 tt should be enough experience. Get the Malibu do your IR in it(insurance would probably agree if doing it with a malibu guru) and skip the intermediate step. A malibu is bigger and faster but doesnt seem to have any crazy characteristics. They arent crazy fast and dont go super high. The only difference from something thats doing 150kts is pressurisation and another 50kts.

100s or 1000s of pilots each year jump from 172s to jets and turboprops no intermediate steps i cant say that going from a 110kt cessna to a 450kt jet was super hard other than from a systems knowlege level. A plane flys like a plane. Study systems get a good checkout and you'll be fine.
 
@Tarheelpilot beat me to it.
Bo.Nan.Za.

Edit - and then when you are done with it and ready for the Malibu, you need to sell it to me cheap (after upgrading the avionics).

:)

Like a finder's fee...
 
enman1200,

Trainers and many metal gliders are maybe 20/1 glide ratio.
High Performance Gliders are usually over 40/1 and are made of fiberglass with retractable gear. Many are at 50/1 now. Last one I flew was an LS-18.
Still world class competitive in standard and 18 meter class.

Racing over 250 miles averaging over 85 mph with no engine is a blast.
Really a mental game.
Really miss competition flying.

If you have a real interest:
 
TwoZulu said:
Yes insurance does play into the equation.
Click to expand...

Care to explain this? Are you speaking of cost or lack of hours? Maybe both?

TwoZulu said:
From what I have seen Insurance companies look for min 600 or total hrs and so many hours of IFR, Complex and high-performance for the Malibu.
Click to expand...

I really don't know where the minimum experience threshold for a Malibu is, but in the current insurance environment that is likely pretty light on experience. Regardless of experience level you can plan on initial and recurrent training every year by an approved provider, and likely a premium in the 5 figures to start.
 
You are forbidden from flying a Bonanza while wearing the glider bucket hat. :)

I know past performance is no indication of future gain, but when we where shopping for our Bonanza last year, prices continued to climb, aircraft in our desired years (relatively "new") were scarce and sold fast. If the next 2-3 years continue this trend, I predict you will not lose money on your purchase.

Oh, and congrats for escaping to Wyoming!
 
Insurance is a cost factor in every purchase.
I have looked at C210 and have been told that insurance without IR will be very steep.
I am told that will be a problem for all 6 seaters.

I suppose I could wait 6 more months have the 600 hrs but not the rating or endorsements required for lower insurance rates.
I may consider the cost of purchasing and selling an intermediate plane may be more costly than the extra first years insurance premium on the Malibu.
I could get IFR training along with Malibu experience at the same time.

Just a thought.

I had to eat a high first year insurance premium in the highlander in order to train in it.
Not in the same league but it was part of my decision on whether to rent or buy to train in.
I found that extra cost worth it.

Then there is the fact that am lucky enough that I can afford to go without insurance.
Not something I want to do. I have made decisions before not to insure because the dollar premium vs risk was way out of line.
I may have to self insure until the premium comes down to earth.
 
gkainz
Gotcha!
I gave up the bucket hat along time ago.:D
But you do need to remove the top button on a baseball hat.
New canopies are really expensive!
 
There are other factors besides $.
I do want to make this transition safely.
If its best to do an intermediate plane (so far I am leaning that way) I will go that way.
I am sure a IFR instructor training me in a Malibu would be more expensive than in a lesser plane.
So many factors to look at!
 
TwoZulu said:
Insurance is a cost factor in every purchase.
I have looked at C210 and have been told that insurance without IR will be very steep.
I am told that will be a problem for all 6 seaters.

I suppose I could wait 6 more months have the 600 hrs but not the rating or endorsements required for lower insurance rates.
I may consider the cost of purchasing and selling an intermediate plane may be more costly than the extra first years insurance premium on the Malibu.
I could get IFR training along with Malibu experience at the same time.
Click to expand...

Just my opinion, but if the insurance costs are a major deal breaker I don't think the Malibu is the right plane. They're easy airplanes to fly and quite pleasant but the maintenance, insurance, and recurrent training costs are going to be considerably higher than something like a Bonanza or 210. While the insurance costs may go down some with flight experience, time in type, and lower hull values, I wouldn't expect it to ever get down to what I personally think it should cost.

Another thing that hasn't been brought up but you should be considering - what is the field elevation and runway length at the airport you're thinking of flying out of? Also, do they have hangars that will fit an airplane with a 43' wingspan?
 
I already own a hangar that is plenty big for both planes at 46U -65' Wide 60' deep after building out the residence inside.
Runway is 5800' at 5600' in a valley surrounded by 13,000' mountains.
Man it was a great adventure flying the highlander 20 hrs each way out there and back this summer.
Low and slow across the country! Flew into the Star Valley via the sake river canyon.
We learned that over Nebraska at 100 mph at 2000', the world is flat!!!
Got to fly the Tetons and Yellowstone.
This is how you convince your wife to move out to Wyoming!

Insurance costs are not a deal breaker at all.
I know this is not a cheap plane to own. But is economical for the mission. Insurance is not the top cost by any means.
I just mean I have heard some nightmare numbers for the first year on many planes and it has only been getting worse.
I look at it like, would I write the policy at this price? If the answer is maybe, its no go. But sometimes I have
said hell yea! Then I effectively self insure. Does not happen that often but it has worked well for me in the past.
Schooling and background has me always looking at risk / reward. (maybe I overanalyze things a bit)
I am not risk averse, but I don't take unnecessary risk.
I think most pilots think like this while flying.

Getting a bit off topic.
Other than the Bo what other plane would fit this mission of intermediate plane for me?
One that I would not loose too much to purchase and sell in one to three years when I move up.
 
Talk to your insurance provider and find out what they will require for a checkout and just get the Malibu. You learn to fly what ever you are in. The military starts you off in Turboprop complex aircraft. I transitioned from a Grumman Yankee to my Questair Venture. You may even find the Malibu easier to fly. The more difficult part will be learning all the systems.
 
I suspect insurance may be big part of this equation.
How do the insurance companies look at the glider time? Are they giving any credit for that?

I'm not in any way discounting the glider, the tailwheel and the cross-country experience. You seem a very serious aviator. But is your powered aircraft experience really only 150 hours in a 100 - 115 hp 2-seat fixed gear kitplane?

I know the insurance underwriters I've spoken with (I'm on the Board of a 17 airplane flying club that includes a flight training unit that logs ~14,000+ hours annually) would consider you among their highest risks to cover - low time pilots with money to buy high performance airplanes. Our lead underwriter won't even cover low time pilots that buy SR-22s any more.

If it was me I'd probably buy that Bonanza or maybe a Mooney and use it to get my IR and log a bunch of serious cross-country time in the weather through the seasons first. Unless, of course, the insurance company says "go for it" to the Malibu. :cool:
 
GRG55 said:
How do the insurance companies look at the glider time? Are they giving any credit for that?
Click to expand...
For a Malibu, they probably consider glider time a huge plus. (Okay, now where I do hide? :stirpot:)

To the OP: You mentioned 4 seats being okay. How do you plan to load the plane? Density altitude is going to be the real concern where you are located. I’ve been there in July in a 180hp Arrow. If your mission is mostly solo and you want to build hours, that is a good plane for it. Affordable to operate and insure and you will build 10 hours each time you fly your trip. But if you need to take off with another human in the plane, you will want something with more power. And unless that other human wants to build time as a passenger, you will want something faster.

Think about loading and then narrow down your options. It may be that going straight to the Malibu makes sense, but I would suggest starting with something like a Turbo Saratoga, which can do your mission safely and comfortably and is a reasonable stepping stone for your experience level.
 
GRG55 said:
Did someone buy the tooling for the Lancair IV? Looks faintly familiar...
Click to expand...

Yup. That's what it is. A "remanufactured" Lancair IV-P with a new wing, etc. (the hinges on the wing compared to the clean underside original IV-P suggest Fowler-type flaps, for example).



RDD Enterprises Wants to Upgrade Amateur-built Hot Rod
by Mark Phelps
- July 25, 2019, 12:53 AM


RDD Enterprises believes it can sustain business by remanufacturing 10 Lancair IV-Ps per year to the configuration of its LX7.
RDD Enterprises was founded in 2006 by partners David McCrae, Eric Schmidlin, and Mark Mahnke, who all liked the pressurized Lancair IV-P, but felt it could be significantly safer with more modern aerodynamics, manufacturing processes, pressurization system, and other enhancements.

The result is the RDD LX7, available in four iterations—350-hp piston in retractable or fixed gear; or a 500-shp PT6A-powered turboprop version, also with a choice of fixed or retractable gear. The LX7's single-wing is new, featuring dual-slotted flaps not found on the IV-P. The entire tail is also new. Multiple refinements give the cabin more room and comfort, and the RDD partners added a ballistic whole-airplane parachute.

But what really sets RDD’s program apart is the business plan. RDD will start with already certified airframes, then “modify” them by removing the wings and tail and effectively remanufacturing the entire airplane, while retaining its original production certificate. There are currently about 250 registered Lancair IV-Ps, each one a potential “donor” airplane.

With improved aerodynamics and more consistent manufacturing tolerances, RDD believes its LX7 will have the same top-speed performance but greatly improved slow-speed qualities, making it safer to operate. The estimated cost, depending on the condition of the donor aircraft RDD is able to acquire, is $830,000 for the piston version and $980,000 for the turboprop.
 
This made my night. Someone asks for tips on a plane he can buy, fly a bunch, and easily sell as a stepping stone toward a Piper Malibu. So far the answers are 100% vintage POA:

1. Bonanza
2. Rare million-dollar conversion from an already rare kit plane

I can’t believe that nobody has suggested a PC-12 yet. Or was it my turn? :)
 
iamtheari said:
This made my night. Someone asks for tips on a plane he can buy, fly a bunch, and easily sell as a stepping stone toward a Piper Malibu. So far the answers are 100% vintage POA:

1. Bonanza
2. Rare million-dollar conversion from an already rare kit plane

I can’t believe that nobody has suggested a PC-12 yet. Or was it my turn? :)
Click to expand...

Hey, I suggested a Mooney...not to be confused with a Money, er, Malibu. ;)

But the PC-12 has real potential :D
 
Zeldman said:
Where ya at in Wyoming.??

I plan to move to the Cody/Powell area next summer.
Click to expand...
A post above mentioned 46U, which is Alpine. South of Jackson Hole.
 
I seriously doubt that you’ll be able to get insurance in a Malibu. Last time I checked (15yrs ago), the minimum was 1,000hrs, Instrument rating, and a 5 day sim training at an approved training facility (ie: Simcom, or Flight safety), additionally, 25hrs pic before carrying passengers or with approved CFI.
However, this was right after the FAA had removed the grounding due to IMC accidents. A commercial ticket reduced that to 500hrs in complex a/c.
It was actually cheaper to insure me (COMM CFI,CFII, MEI) in a Cessna 421! Still had to do a sim course (RTC) and 10hrs w/previous company pilot.
I suggest Something like a friend is trying to sell. Seneca II/V. 220hp turbocharged engine’s. $125,000. Insurance with 1,200hrs, IR, (c206, Turbo Saratoga, two different SR22’s) was $8,000 first year. Now down to 4,700yr.
Having flown into and out of 46U in a Cessna 182, you’ll really appreciate the turbo’s in the summer...
 
iamtheari said:
This made my night. Someone asks for tips on a plane he can buy, fly a bunch, and easily sell as a stepping stone toward a Piper Malibu. So far the answers are 100% vintage POA:

1. Bonanza
2. Rare million-dollar conversion from an already rare kit plane

I can’t believe that nobody has suggested a PC-12 yet. Or was it my turn? :)
Click to expand...

To be true vintage POA, you need to include the LearBaron, or at the very least, the Duke.
 
AeroLudite said:
I seriously doubt that you’ll be able to get insurance in a Malibu. Last time I checked (15yrs ago), the minimum was 1,000hrs, Instrument rating, and a 5 day sim training at an approved training facility (ie: Simcom, or Flight safety), additionally, 25hrs pic before carrying passengers or with approved CFI.
However, this was right after the FAA had removed the grounding due to IMC accidents.
Click to expand...

I believe the IMC concerns were in the early ‘90s; much longer than 15 years ago...

But your minimum requirements list are pretty accurate and still in effect. I really don’t see initial and recurrent training for these airframes ever going away, despite the simplicity of the aircraft systems and the ease of flying. I do think that it would be a bit of a handful for the typical 500 hour pilot however, so a step between a PA28 and a PA46 would be appropriate.

I think the PA46 is a great airplane but seems to be a bit needy in the maintenance department and demanding in the insurance/training department for what it is.
 
mondtster said:
Personally, I wouldn’t want to substitute a Cirrus for a Malibu having flown both.
Click to expand...

I flew both professionally. From a strictly pilot perspective, I preferred the Malibu, but the Cirrus has a lot of advantages and is a fine airplane for the OPs mission.

Easier to fly. Burns less fuel. Easier to get in and out. Don’t have to worry about CG.

For the OP, it will be a lot easier to get into a Cirrus from an insurance standpoint than a Malibu.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I flew both professionally. From a strictly pilot perspective, I preferred the Malibu, but the Cirrus has a lot of advantages and is a fine airplane for the OPs mission.

Easier to fly. Burns less fuel. Easier to get in and out. Don’t have to worry about CG.

For the OP, it will be a lot easier to get into a Cirrus from an insurance standpoint than a Malibu.
Click to expand...

I’ve also flown both professionally and would agree with everything you wrote. What I don’t care for about the Cirrus is the lack of pressurization - I don’t like sucking on oxygen and in the environment I fly in I feel that limits flexibility a bit more than I’d really want to accept.
 
If you wanted to get into a Malibu flying out of Alpine, one thing to consider would be going straight into a Malibu or a Mirage, and putting a professional mentor pilot on the payroll for a year. You would still need to do the initial training, and have an IFR since every flight above 18,000 feet requires an instrument rating. If you had the insurance company limit you to flights with a mentor on board insurance should be quite affordable. And if the mentor pilot understands icing, thunderstorms, radar, it would be a great learning experience. The All in cost would probably be fairly similar to swapping aircraft. The Malibu is very easy to fly, like a big Saratoga, but what gets people in trouble is the environment. It is basically a piston powered Meridian, TBM, PC 12, so most weather flying, year round icing, SIDs STARs, high altitude convection, and an airplane that can cross 2 or 3 weather systems on a single non-stop flight, Exposes you to risk that most piston pilots aren’t well versed in. That is where the mentor it really helps you.
 
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