Logging cross country time

[Brad schneider]

I’m planning a multiple stop cross country trip. Can I log cross country time for the entire trip or have to break it up as 1 stop is less than 50 miles? The whole flight will be the same day. KCUL - KGRE will be a touch and go KTAZ will be full stop for the night. Here’s the stops.
2R2 - KCUL 126 miles 1:18
KCUL - KGRE 74 miles :44
KGRE- KTAZ 42 miles :23

total time using current FF information
2:42
Can 2:42 be logged as cross country or do I need to subtract the 23 minutes from the total because it is less than 50 miles?
Thanks for the help

 

[Shepherd]

Log the entire trip as cross country.

 

[eman1200]

(dang it, I can't remember who posted this meme years ago and I still laugh about it)

 

[mondtster]

Can 2:42 be logged as cross country or do I need to subtract the 23 minutes from the total because it is less than 50 miles?

The whole thing is a cross country. The greater than 50 mile distance part only is a factor for the purposes of seeking a certificate. Even then, not all cross country time eligible to be counted for the purpose of seeking a certificate needs to be over 50 miles, it depends on the certificate being sought. I'd suggest consulting part 61 if there is a question about what will count as cross country time and what does not if there is a concern about proper documentation for additional certificates/ratings.

 

[MauleSkinner]

The 50-mile thing is any landing more than 50 miles from the original point of departure, not each leg…
61.1:

(ii) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements (except for a rotorcraft category rating), for a private pilot certificate (except for a powered parachute category rating), a commercial pilot certificate, or an instrument rating, or for the purpose of exercising recreational pilot privileges (except in a rotorcraft) under § 61.101 (c), time acquired during a flight -

(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;

(B) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

 

[midlifeflyer]

For the cross countries that count for the private, commercial, and instrument, there is no requirement that any single leg be more than 50 NM. Only that there be at least one landing at one airport more than 50 NM from where you started.

For an extreme example, if it's 55 NM between where you start and where you end, you could stop every 5 NM and it would all count as one cross country flight.

Yours is definitely countable as a cross country. The whole thing.

 

[Dana]

Sort of related: When I learned to fly (1976-77) my long cross country for PP had to be three legs, each one over 100 miles (yes, with a logbook signature at each stop). Was 100 miles the FAA requirement back then, or was it maybe just the program requirement of the part 141 school I was at?

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

By definition (61.1)

Cross-country time

means -

(i) Except as provided in paragraphs (ii) through (vi) of this definition, time acquired during flight -

(A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;

(B) Conducted in an aircraft;

(C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and

(D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

No requirement for any particular distance for a flight to be "Cross Country". No "must be 50 miles".

Now, for that time to count towards any particular certificate, there are distance requirements, but they vary...

(ii) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements (except for a rotorcraft category rating), for a private pilot certificate (except for a powered parachute category rating), a commercial pilot certificate, or an instrument rating, or for the purpose of exercising recreational pilot privileges (except in a rotorcraft) under § 61.101 (c), time acquired during a flight -

(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;

(B) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

(iii) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for a sport pilot certificate (except for powered parachute privileges), time acquired during a flight conducted in an appropriate aircraft that -

(A) Includes a point of landing at least a straight line distance of more than 25 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

(B) Involves, as applicable, the use of dead reckoning; pilotage; electronic navigation aids; radio aids; or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

(iv) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for a sport pilot certificate with powered parachute privileges or a private pilot certificate with a powered parachute category rating, time acquired during a flight conducted in an appropriate aircraft that -

(A) Includes a point of landing at least a straight line distance of more than 15 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

(B) Involves, as applicable, the use of dead reckoning; pilotage; electronic navigation aids; radio aids; or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

(v) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for any pilot certificate with a rotorcraft category rating or an instrument-helicopter rating, or for the purpose of exercising recreational pilot privileges, in a rotorcraft, under § 61.101(c), time acquired during a flight -

(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;

(B) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 25 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

(vi) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for an airline transport pilot certificate (except with a rotorcraft category rating), time acquired during a flight -

(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;

(B) That is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems.

(vii) For a military pilot who qualifies for a commercial pilot certificate (except with a rotorcraft category rating) under § 61.73 of this part, time acquired during a flight -

(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;

(B) That is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Now, for that time to count towards any particular certificate, there are distance requirements, but they vary...

But again, no requirement for any individual leg to be 50 miles.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Sort of related: When I learned to fly (1976-77) my long cross country for PP had to be three legs, each one over 100 miles (yes, with a logbook signature at each stop). Was 100 miles the FAA requirement back then, or was it maybe just the program requirement of the part 141 school I was at?

I don't know about that far back but in the early 1990s the student long solo was longer and either the student or commercial long cross country required one 50 nm leg.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Sort of related: When I learned to fly (1976-77) my long cross country for PP had to be three legs, each one over 100 miles (yes, with a logbook signature at each stop). Was 100 miles the FAA requirement back then, or was it maybe just the program requirement of the part 141 school I was at?

I did mine in ‘77 or ‘78. I was part 91 so it wasn’t a 141 thing. Same thing, 3 legs, 100+ miles, signature at each stop.

 

[Mxfarm]

I did mine in ‘77 or ‘78. I was part 91 so it wasn’t a 141 thing. Same thing, 3 legs, 100+ miles, signature at each stop.

Did you do spins too?

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Did you do spins too?

Nope.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Did you do spins too?

The spin requirement was removed in 1949.

 

[Mxfarm]

The spin requirement was removed in 1949.

Wow, had no idea it was that long ago, we did spins in primary training in 1988. Instructor mentioned they weren’t required “now”, so just always thought that was a semi-recent change.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Wow, had no idea it was that long ago, we did spins in primary training in 1988. Instructor mentioned they weren’t required “now”, so just always thought that was a semi-recent change.

The FAA was seeing a large number of stall/spin training fatalities when it was a requirement. 48% of all fatal accidents according to studies at the time. I'm guessing at least part of it was related to a post-war uptick in pilot training without an equal uptick in instructor quality. Anyway, the numbers dropped when the requirement was dropped and stall training increased.

In 1989, there was a proposal to bring it back as a requirement. The result was the current rule requiring spin training for CFIs and an further emphasis on stall avoidance and spin awareness ground.

spin training was never outlawed. No reason to do that. If anything the removal of the requirement probably increased the quality and safety of spin instruction for those who want it.

 

[Dana]

Did you do spins too?

I told my instructor that I wanted to do spins, so we did. He told me not to do them solo... with a smile as I'm sure he knew I would anyway. Ditto for grass field landings.

 

[flyingron]

The FAA is quite lenient on how you aggregate legs into flights. As long as a sequence of legs has an initial departure and ultimate destination more than 50 miles apart, it counts for most of the items in part 61. If the FAA wanted non-stop, they would say non-stop.

Also, there are a few places where the FAA wants some stop (not necessarily the last) at least a certain distance from the origin so that's even a different matter.

 

[MauleSkinner]

In 1989, there was a proposal to bring it back as a requirement. The result was the current rule requiring spin training for CFIs and an further emphasis on stall avoidance and spin awareness ground.

Spin training was a requirement for the CFI when I got mine in 1988, and I’m recalling that it was fairly well established already. Was the 1989 thing just a modification?

 

[midlifeflyer]

Spin training was a requirement for the CFI when I got mine in 1988, and I’m recalling that it was fairly well established already. Was the 1989 thing just a modification?

You made me look deeper! Thank you and I think you are right.

The Final Rule says the required endorsement for spin training, optionally requiring a demonstration on the practical test, and the requirement to demonstrate on a retest were new. It's not clear from the Final Rule but the Proposed Rule says, "Currently stall training is a basic element of all pilot training, but only flight instructor candidates are required to undergo spin training."

There's even some indication that in 1949 when it was removed for everything else, it was left in for instructors. But I looked at the 1954 CAR and 1973 FAR (I don't have anything else, like a pre-change 1990 FAR) and can't find any reference to spins at all. Of course, that could just be that there was less detail given in the FAR to certification requirements leaving most to whatever guidance was available to examiners at the time.

 

[SkyDog58]

I did mine in ‘77 or ‘78. I was part 91 so it wasn’t a 141 thing. Same thing, 3 legs, 100+ miles, signature at each stop.

Everyone doing flight training operates under Part 91, regardless of whether you are training under Part 61 or 141.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Everyone doing flight training operates under Part 91, regardless of whether you are training under Part 61 or 141.

True that. What I meant, not what I said.

 

[pfarber]

But again, no requirement for any individual leg to be 50 miles.

There was an AC or maybe a letter the FAA released that did state that for the PPL training you needed to have a 50 mile leg. The reason is that even at bugsmasher speeds anything less than 50 miles is not a test of navigation skills.

 

[pfarber]

61.109 seems to be quite clear for PPL training

(ii) One solo cross country flight of 150 nautical miles total distance, with full-stop landings at three points, and one segment of the flight consisting of a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing locations; and

I just log hobbs time unless there is a need to split the times for other purposes

 

[iamtheari]

This is one of those places where the term is defined clearly in one place, but then little add-ones elsewhere in the regs make people think there are multiple definitions. I’m looking at you, “night.” It’s your choice if you want to under-log cross country time by only logging the flights that qualify for experience toward a certificate or rating. I do that, but I use the separate field in MyFlightBook to add in the cross country time less than 50 nm. So if anyone wants to know my real cross country time, I can add that number in.

And despite flying a Cub or Champ on many short trips, the sub-50-mile trips make up only 10% of all my cross country time. So if you do end up short changing yourself by only logging training-qualifying cross country time, it isn’t likely to make a big difference.

It’s definitely easier this way than logging all as-defined cross country flights and then, when you apply for a certificate or rating, going through your logbook to deduct any flights that didn’t go 50 miles away from home.

 

[iamtheari]

Wow, had no idea it was that long ago, we did spins in primary training in 1988. Instructor mentioned they weren’t required “now”, so just always thought that was a semi-recent change.

Bad news. In just a few years, 1988 will be less recent than 1949 was in 1988.

 

[MauleSkinner]

There was an AC or maybe a letter the FAA released that did state that for the PPL training you needed to have a 50 mile leg. The reason is that even at bugsmasher speeds anything less than 50 miles is not a test of navigation skills.

Per your following post, yes, one 50-mile leg is required for Private Pilot certification. For general cross-country requirements, 50-mile legs are not required.

 

[midlifeflyer]

There was an AC or maybe a letter the FAA released that did state that for the PPL training you needed to have a 50 mile leg. The reason is that even at bugsmasher speeds anything less than 50 miles is not a test of navigation skills.

No.

There was a thing from the Buffalo FSDO maybe 30 years ago which said that. It was removed when the FAA Chief Counsel was notified of the misinterpretation.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Per your following post, yes, one 50-mile leg is required for Private Pilot certification. For general cross-country requirements, 50-mile legs are not required.

Only for the long cross country. One of the legs needs to be at les50 nm.

One solo cross country flight of 150 nautical miles total distance, with full-stop landings at three points, and one segment of the flight consisting of a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing locations;​

 

[EricBe]

Cross-country - such a simple concept, so maddening in practice. Particularly frustrating is the fact that it is impossible to look at a given flight and ask "how much cross-country time is represented by this flight?". Literally impossible. You MUST have the context of "For purposes of X, how much cross-country time is represented by this flight?", where "X" might be an insurance form or progress towards rating requirements or ...

My rant on this (and suggestions for how to log it in MyFlightbook) are at https://myflightbookblog.blogspot.com/2018/08/logging-cross-country-time.html.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Cross-country - such a simple concept, so maddening in practice. Particularly frustrating is the fact that it is impossible to look at a given flight and ask "how much cross-country time is represented by this flight?". Literally impossible. You MUST have the context of "For purposes of X, how much cross-country time is represented by this flight?", where "X" might be an insurance form or progress towards rating requirements or ...

My rant on this (and suggestions for how to log it in MyFlightbook) are at https://myflightbookblog.blogspot.com/2018/08/logging-cross-country-time.html.

I disagree…it’s easy to determine how much cross country time is represented by the flight. It’s even easy to determine if it qualifies for the majority of training/experience requirements. It’s only the one or two specific for specific certificates or ratings that need to be hunted up.

 

[TommyG]

Part 61 says-
Cross-country time means -
(i) Except as provided in paragraphs (ii) through (vi) of this definition, time acquired during flight
-
(A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;
(B) Conducted in an aircraft;
(C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and
(D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or
other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.
(ii) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements (except for a rotorcraft
category rating), for a private pilot certificate (except for a powered parachute category rating), a
commercial pilot certificate, or an instrument rating, or for the purpose of exercising recreational
pilot privileges (except in a rotorcraft) under § 61.101 (c), time acquired during a flight -

 

[midlifeflyer]

I disagree…it’s easy to determine how much cross country time is represented by the flight. It’s even easy to determine if it qualifies for the majority of training/experience requirements. It’s only the one or two specific for specific certificates or ratings that need to be hunted up.

I"m pretty certain @EricBe is not talking about not understanding the various ways cross countries are counted. He does. Rather, I suspect he's talking about trying to account for them in a digital logbook app from the standpoint of both efficient data entry and status reporting.

 

[WDD]

If I land some place that is over 50 miles from where I started, I'll put that as well as time spent getting back to home airport all as XC - regardless of how long or how I got there. Seems simple. Am I missing something?

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Am I missing something?

Unless you are applying the time for a particular certificate that requires it, the "over 50 miles" is irrelevant.

 

[WDD]

Unless you are applying the time for a particular certificate that requires it, the "over 50 miles" is irrelevant.

I see your point. My log book has two options for X Country: "All" and "Over 50 NM".

Me? I just log the over 50 NM part. If I ever wanted to, I guess I could go back and add the under 50 nm if I landed at another airport.

Since the only requirement is to land someplace else, I wonder what that shortest X Country could be? What about running off the runway at take off?

 

[MauleSkinner]

Since the only requirement is to land someplace else, I wonder what that shortest X Country could be? What about running off the runway at take off?

I don’t claim the record by any stretch, but my shortest logged cross country is a little under two miles.

back a number of years ago when the Mississippi River flooded, I know of at least one operator that ran a “commuter” from one side of the river to the other with a Bonanza for a week or two.

 

[SkyDog58]

I see your point. My log book has two options for X Country: "All" and "Over 50 NM".

Me? I just log the over 50 NM part. If I ever wanted to, I guess I could go back and add the under 50 nm if I landed at another airport.

Since the only requirement is to land someplace else, I wonder what that shortest X Country could be? What about running off the runway at take off?

You can try a short field takeoff from 0A7, do a quick side step and land on 8NC9.

 

[midlifeflyer]

If I land some place that is over 50 miles from where I started, I'll put that as well as time spent getting back to home airport all as XC - regardless of how long or how I got there. Seems simple. Am I missing something?

If you're talking about the most recent drift about identifying it in eLogs, it's not really about more than 50 vs any distance with a landing. Those are easy. But now add in >50 without a landing (qualifies for ATP) and don't forgetnthe "special" cross countries. The instrument dual. The "long" student and commercial solos.

 

[EricBe]

If you're talking about the most recent drift about identifying it in eLogs, it's not really about more than 50 vs any distance with a landing. Those are easy. But now add in >50 without a landing (qualifies for ATP) and don't forgetnthe "special" cross countries. The instrument dual. The "long" student and commercial solos.

And that's a great example of why the context matters.