Log books... old school, electronic, or both?

[1600vw]

I think everyone got your point. I know I did.

Yes, you are old school. But that's the point. You are using being old school as a way to find reasons to denigrate one medium for another. Why would you have to pass the tablet around? How about the whole family gathered around the living room fireplace sharing memories of grandpa while watching the pictures of his life flash on the 80-foot screen overhead, together, all at the same time? Heck,, a generation from now, that might be passe too.

I've made slide shows of photographs of my parents, one for each. I pull them out on mothers day and fathers day (not every one) and share them with family on Facebook. Sorry you think sharing that with my family, flung from Maine to Miami and NY to LA, is a bad idea dn it would be much better to wait until we can sit together (probably never) and pass it around. I don't.

Not your cup of tea? That's fine. But it might be theirs. So make the choice for yourself. Neither your choices nor mine are "best" for anyone except you and me. If you really think some B&Ws in a yellowing scrapbook are the best window into life, by all means, stick with it. (and yes, you are saying that, maybe an updated version of it, but it's the same thing)

My only point is media changes through the centuries. I'm sure there are history buffs who would much rather read something on papyrus than newsprint. But it's presumptive to think that our choices are best for the whole world or eve the next generation of our own families.

But maybe I'm just "new school" and when I get older I'll understand better.

I am not talking about sharing with family. I have no family to share with who gives a crap about aviation. They prefer to not hear anything about it. I am talking about sharing with my fellow pilot friends out in the hangar where we do not have electrical power or internet service.

Tony

 

[midlifeflyer]

I am not talking about sharing with family. I have no family to share with who gives a crap about aviation. They prefer to not hear anything about it. I am talking about sharing with my fellow pilot friends out in the hangar where we do not have electrical power or internet service.

Tony

Ok.

 

[somorris]

Just me, but even as an IT guy, I don't want to invest the time in establishing and maintaining an online/electronic logbook. Scads of feature bloat to click thru, or ignore, or muck with before getting up to speed on just the parts that matter to me.

That said, I never lost one, either. I do copy the latest few pages occasionally, like an "incremental" backup. If I was a professional pilot, I'd most defintely have a real, physical logbook. . All software sucks. . .

And this coming from an IT guy! I use only paper for the same reasons Sundancer listed.

 

[denverpilot]

My primary log book is physical. Yes, I also use an electronic version - makes it so much easier when dealing with the FAA, flight schools, rentals when out of town, etc. Just like I do with the airplane logs, every time a page is filled, I take a snapshot with the camera. When I finish the taxes every year, everything is burned to 2 CD/DVDs (taxes, log books, important letters, etc). One for the safe deposit box, one for my fire box at home. The log books get two extras - one that stays in the airplane and one that I give to the shop every year during the annual so they can more easily search to whatever ADs, changes, etc.

This pretty well covers me, also. Paper is still primary with electronic making my life a little easier when doing the math. I'm not quite as detailed about multiple depths of backup. I've also used multiple electronic systems over the years and had to switch. I'm currently quite happy with @EricBe 's MyFlightBook offering and finally remembered to donate recently.

I suspect I would also like a couple of the other commercial offerings and have friends involved in their development behind the scenes, I'm just sticking with Eric's system for now.

 

[1600vw]

I burned some very important things like my grand kids baby pics and such onto a CD. About a month ago I wanted to view some of this stuff. I stuck the CD in and nothing. I can not get this CD to work. I took this CD in to a company who said they could retrieve these pics and files for me. I get a phone call telling me the cd is corrupt of something like this. They could not get this CD to work. Never again will anything like this go on an electronic device. I then read into thumb drives. Those to will fail after some use.

Important papers and pic will never again go onto any of these devices. They do not stand the test of time. Now let me hear about all the cd people has burned years ago still working today. I have some of those too. But the one with the really important stuff I cared about. This one failed. That is the one I care about.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I burned some very important things like my grand kids baby pics and such onto a CD. About a month ago I wanted to view some of this stuff. I stuck the CD in and nothing. I can not get this CD to work. I took this CD in to a company who said they could retrieve these pics and files for me. I get a phone call telling me the cd is corrupt of something like this. They could not get this CD to work. Never again will anything like this go on an electronic device. I then read into thumb drives. Those to will fail after some use.

Important papers and pic will never again go onto any of these devices. They do not stand the test of time. Now let me hear about all the cd people has burned years ago still working today. I have some of those too. But the one with the really important stuff I cared about. This one failed. That is the one I care about.

Like I said, these are personal choices. If you store old paper photos by tossing them into a paper bag in a wet basement, they won't last long. Yes, paper has stood the test of time better than rapidly changing technology but that just means being aware of different things than just a wet basement. But, my problem is the exact opposite of yours. Every digital photo I have is backed up in more than one place. I couldn't destroy one completely if I tried!

For me, loss hasn't been a problem, but I've been a bit of a geek for decades. It hasn't been hard to see the changes in media and it's fairly easy to move from one to the other. My cousins had a DVD made, or maybe it was even a tape in the heyday of the VCR, and then ported to DVD. But whatever, it was a compilation of family photos and 8mm home movies (talk about a dead technology!) from the 1950s. It's now an mp4 digital file treasure trove of memories including three generations that can be easily distributed to the grandchildren of the youngest people in the video to watch on any device they want - TV, computer, tablet, phone, built-in car video player, etc.

This isn't a fight of what's better. At least not for me. I love looking at old photo albums and scrapbooks. But I'm happy to recognize different media for the benefits they produce as well as for their limitations.

 

[problematique]

That's the thing with digital- there's ALWAYS a way with very little effort to make a backup just in case something like a burned disc does go bad. Just as simple as cloud based storage through google for instance. Drag and drop the files you need backed up- done. But I do know some people don't want to fool around with all that.
I feel the "tech era" has a generational gap component as well. It would be interesting to note the age group divide of people here who are mostly for vs. mostly against digital picture storage, smartphones, digital log-books, mainstream technology, etc. etc. From my personal observation I've noticed most people born before 1970 have little or no interest in technological advances with regards to something they've already been "doing a certain way". While most people born after 1980 are all about technology. Thanks Bill Gates!
But hey, technology is not always a good thing. I've purchased 3 washing machines in the last 10 years......While the one my parents had back in the 90's still work- and wash better!

 

[dmspilot]

I burned some very important things like my grand kids baby pics and such onto a CD. About a month ago I wanted to view some of this stuff. I stuck the CD in and nothing. I can not get this CD to work. I took this CD in to a company who said they could retrieve these pics and files for me. I get a phone call telling me the cd is corrupt of something like this. They could not get this CD to work. Never again will anything like this go on an electronic device. I then read into thumb drives. Those to will fail after some use.

Important papers and pic will never again go onto any of these devices. They do not stand the test of time. Now let me hear about all the cd people has burned years ago still working today. I have some of those too. But the one with the really important stuff I cared about. This one failed. That is the one I care about.

Curious. Was it a CD-R or was it a CD-RW? I'm sorry to hear that you lost your data.

 

[denverpilot]

I'm just wondering if @problematique thinks no one was born between 70 and 80. ;-)

 

[problematique]

Those darn "70's babies"... they're just a mixed bag!
(On a totally unrelated note, please do not view my birthdate)

 

[midlifeflyer]

That's the thing with digital- there's ALWAYS a way with very little effort to make a backup just in case something like a burned disc does go bad. Just as simple as cloud based storage through google for instance. Drag and drop the files you need backed up- done. But I do know some people don't want to fool around with all that.
I feel the "tech era" has a generational gap component as well. It would be interesting to note the age group divide of people here who are mostly for vs. mostly against digital picture storage, smartphones, digital log-books, mainstream technology, etc. etc. From my personal observation I've noticed most people born before 1970 have little or no interest in technological advances with regards to something they've already been "doing a certain way". While most people born after 1980 are all about technology. Thanks Bill Gates!
But hey, technology is not always a good thing. I've purchased 3 washing machines in the last 10 years......While the one my parents had back in the 90's still work- and wash better!

There are certainly some very general generational issues in terms of exposure from an early age but use does not equal savvy.

I can't resist. Let's see how your hypothesis plays out. Place some of the pro and con folks in this thread into your generational groups.

 

[1600vw]

Curious. Was it a CD-R or was it a CD-RW? I'm sorry to hear that you lost your data.

I lost three cd's. Not sure what happened to these three. They are CD-R and around 8 years old. I made these or copied these around 8 years ago I made a total of 5. Three had important things like family pics and such and two had cars and trucks on it and things out in my shop. The one's with unimportant stuff work great. The ones I care about do nothing. I was told they had become corrupt. I told the wife that they seem to be able to recover data from drives that have all but been destroyed but we can not recover these three cd's. Thank you dmspilot.

 

[1600vw]

After this happened to my CD's. I will never store anything digital and only digital. A copy will be made on hard paper and put away. I have some books from the 1800. I bet that most of the data stored on a digital platform will not be around in 30 years. Think thumb drives, cd's, ect..

 

[Colliam7]

Interesting a) initial question, and b) broader subsequent discussion of technology.

First, as to the OP's question: I have regularly over the past 20+ years raised the same issue - I have a paper logbook, should I convert / switch to electronic? And, each time I go look at what is available commercially, and the pros and cons, and I have - at least up to this point - stayed with paper. I just have not found a sufficiently compelling reason FOR ME to change. Had I started out digital, the situation would be different. That wasn't a viable option when I started flying. But, I have also over time started keeping spreadsheet summaries of certain flight attributes that don't necessarily match up with available columns in my commercial paper logbook product (which is, perhaps, a little scaled down) - complex time, night landings / TOs, etc. I find that really isn't a big deal to do, although I realize that if I switch to electronic I probably could more easily accomplish the goal of tracking certain items, with only one entry. As an aside, I dive, and teach diving, and also keep a paper logbook, because . . . that is how I started, I guess, and I haven't found an advantage of a digital logging product (even considering the fact that I could directly download data from my dive computers) sufficient to cause me to change. As midlifeflyer suggests, I definitely think there is a matter of personal preference involved in the choice, and I suspect inertia plays a role as well. So, I for one would not challenge anyone else's approach. All I can do is share what I do and why.

Second, I am usually hesitant to make broad generalizations, about technology among other things. I definitely belong to the pre-1970 population subset, but I have a lot of interest in possible application technological advances with regard to things I have previously been doing a certain way. Honestly, I don't think age has a lot to do with my technology adoption - I do scan most paper photos for storage (and discard the paper), and am (slowly) digitizing our collection of carousel slides, even though I still use a paper logbook. For me, for now, a blend of electronic and hard copy seems to work best. I love having my tablet in the cockpit, but I still carry paper charts, and print copies of airport diagrams before flights, just in case. I am comfortable with my paper logbook, but also use spreadsheet summaries.

To the OP - keep asking the question about digital logs. You may decide to take the plunge, or not. But, keep looking for what might make your life, and flying, easier.

 

[denverpilot]

Curious. Was it a CD-R or was it a CD-RW? I'm sorry to hear that you lost your data.

Doesn't really matter, has more to do with the manufacturing quality...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disc_rot

 

[azblackbird]

From my personal observation I've noticed most people born before 1970 have little or no interest in technological advances with regards to something they've already been "doing a certain way".

I have to disagree with you on the boomer generation and not being technical. I had one of the very first Apple Macs when they came out. I had one of the first Garmin GPS when they became available. I was on the internet when it was ARPANET and TCP/IP protocols were nothing but scribbles in Vincent Serfs notebook. Currently I am (as many of my similar aged friends are also) into all the AI and all the autonomous BS that will be coming out in the future. So for a 55 yr. old geek, I'd say I'm with the times. Regarding logbooks. I think I'll just stick with the "old school" paper and do backup scans and save to various storage mediums that I have available. Many here have already made the point. Why log everything twice.

 

[midwestpa24]

I have and keep up both. I like the paper log for an official record, and the necessary signatures and endorsements. The electronic I use is an excel based spreadsheet. I did go back to the start and input each flight line by line (took a while). My reasoning is, the excel sheet I have provides totals for type, tail number, and every category you can imagine. It makes it very useful when filling out 8710's and insurance forms, plus is neat information to have at my fingertips. The sheet also tracks number of day/night landings in the last 90 days and approaches for the last 6 months to help track currency requirements. I can also view number of flights and hours totaled by month.

 

[problematique]

Currently I am (as many of my similar aged friends are also) into all the AI and all the autonomous BS that will be coming out in the future.

Very refreshing to hear. I'm 38 and I do a lot of daydreaming about all the new tech like the Honda ASIMO robot, autonomous cars like the Tesla, artificial intelligence, etc, etc. Many many times I find myself defending the "new tech" to some of my "more senior peers".

 

[azblackbird]

Very refreshing to hear. I'm 38 and I do a lot of daydreaming about all the new tech like the Honda ASIMO robot, autonomous cars like the Tesla, artificial intelligence, etc, etc. Many many times I find myself defending the "new tech" to some of my "more senior peers".

Until they can figure out a way to make a "Watson" type supercomputer the size of candy bar, AI and true autonomous machinery are still a ways off. Right now I can totally disable (and I'm a dumb ass) an autonomous car in about 30 secs. and the owner would be none the wiser as he/she rear-ends the car in front of them at 70mph. They're dangerous and shouldn't be on the roads. At least at this time and place with the current technologies.

 

[ejensen]

My MFD keeps track of everything from start to shutdown. Even records the airport. I download to a spreadsheet. Eventually copy over into the logbook. I lump most local flights. The hard copy is to take for flight reviews and such.

 

[problematique]

Right now I can totally disable (and I'm a dumb ass) an autonomous car in about 30 secs. and the owner would be none the wiser as he/she rear-ends the car in front of them at 70mph. They're dangerous and shouldn't be on the roads. At least at this time and place with the current technologies.

For clarification, do you mean from a nefarious standpoint with regards to disabling an autonomous car? If so - well then yes of course any standard of safety goes out the window. But that's just the simple logic of "nothing is idiot proof".

On the other hand- I feel in an individual who would hold themselves to a higher standard and takes responsibility for their actions (much like many of us pilots *never mind the pilots that fall asleep while on autopilot*) a self-driving vehicle is indeed not dangerous at all but in fact much safer. The technology is quite advanced and effective, Tesla has proven this already with over 1.3 billion autonomously driven miles. Naturally the media will inflate any accident involving autonomous vehicles much like they do small airplane crashes- it sells. But the actual fact of the matter (for instance) the Tesla vehicles that have been involved in bodily injury accidents while in autonomous mode were human errors. The most famous being the guy who struck a truck / trailer that was turning in the intersection and passed away. The facts were- The Tesla driver was speeding and watching a movie... while the instructions are to keep your hands on the wheel and pay attention (and don't break the law). Of course the news that Tesla was cleared by federal auto safety regulators wasn't as highly publicized, interesting.
(as I look over what I typed) I don't even know how we got into this interesting topic, thank you interweb. But my only point is autonomous vehicles and technology of the sort is ready for us -- But we're not ready for it. hmmm, maybe by definition that does make it dangerous. foiled again by my own logic!!

 

[azblackbird]

For clarification, do you mean from a nefarious standpoint with regards to disabling an autonomous car? If so - well then yes of course any standard of safety goes out the window. But that's just the simple logic of "nothing is idiot proof".

Think driving IFR in a car and what instruments and sensors would be required. Ever notice most of their testing is always in the warm sunshiny states. In bad weather those cars become worthless. Right now there are way to many flaws in the sensors and programming to consider them safe, at least from my perspective. Once those cars become more prevalent, somebody "nefarious" will easily figure out and exploit those flaws and cause some real havoc.

 

[problematique]

Think driving IFR in a car and what instruments and sensors would be required. Ever notice most of their testing is always in the warm sunshiny states. In bad weather those cars become worthless. Right now there are way to many flaws in the sensors and programming to consider them safe, at least from my perspective. Once those cars become more prevalent, somebody "nefarious" will easily figure out and exploit those flaws and cause some real havoc.

Interesting.
I'm not sure of where they do their testing, but between the two front runners Google and Tesla and the miles driven...somebody better have been thinking of crummy driving weather.
But either way, I think we're already in that same situation as it is. We ALREADY have jerks exploiting anything they can get their hands on. But we still persevere. I mean look at the OLD technology in our airplanes and the exceptionally difficult ignition switches to bypass. And the very secure airports we leave our airplanes at with the pick-proof door locks... oh, wait.

 

[azblackbird]

Interesting.
I'm not sure of where they do their testing, but between the two front runners Google and Tesla and the miles driven...somebody better have been thinking of crummy driving weather.

We're a hot bed here in AZ for testing many manufactures cars. Tesla, Google, and Uber are all here doing their testing. Many think they're sneaky by taking all the off-the-beaten-path back roads, but those same roads are a motorcyclists (like myself) dream. I suppose I could make a decent chunk of change selling pics of all the new car models to many of the major automotive magazines if I was into all of that. I'd definitely have to have somebody on the inside, as I'll be damned if I would hang out in the middle of BFE for weeks on end waiting for a line of new model cars to breeze through.

 

[problematique]

I hear ya on that! I'm out on the Goldwing taking those same back roads too

 

[azblackbird]

I hear ya on that! I'm out on the Goldwing taking those same back roads too

Ahhh... a fellow GW rider. Do you recognize this photo?

 

[problematique]

Ahhh... a fellow GW rider. Do you recognize this photo?

I can't say so. I didn't start Winging until 2007. prior to that I was all sport bikes.

 

[azblackbird]

I can't say so. I didn't start Winging until 2007. prior to that I was all sport bikes.

The cover is from July 2005 I believe. I was the same way, went from sport bikes then to HD cruisers and dressers, then to the Wing, then back to a sport bike, then back to an HD dresser. The wife, the dog, and I spent almost 3 years straight riding just about every road west of the MS on the Wing. Most comfortable and smoothest bike I ever owned.

I just get a kick out of the "Peanut Gallery" here who are chastising me for wanting to plan a long XC in an airplane. You know as well as I do that a 600-700 mile day on the Wing is a walk in the park for the average Winger. We've ridden from Dallas, TX to PHX in a day. From PHX to Boise, ID in a day. From PHX to Ft. Morgan, CO and the return trip many times in a day. But yet if I want to fly an airplane anywhere near those distances, I'm being dangerous, or foolish, or I'll put my eye out or some other Godforsaken thing the PC crowd here deems out of their realm. I just can't help but laugh.

 

[MAKG1]

The cover is from July 2005 I believe. I was the same way, went from sport bikes then to HD cruisers and dressers, then to the Wing, then back to a sport bike, then back to an HD dresser. The wife, the dog, and I spent almost 3 years straight riding just about every road west of the MS on the Wing. Most comfortable and smoothest bike I ever owned.

I just get a kick out of the "Peanut Gallery" here who are chastising me for wanting to plan a long XC in an airplane. You know as well as I do that a 600-700 mile day on the Wing is a walk in the park for the average Winger. We've ridden from Dallas, TX to PHX in a day. From PHX to Boise, ID in a day. From PHX to Ft. Morgan, CO and the return trip many times in a day. But yet if I want to fly an airplane anywhere near those distances, I'm being dangerous, or foolish, or I'll put my eye out or some other Godforsaken thing the PC crowd here deems out of their realm. I just can't help but laugh.

So, how's that instructor search going?

When do you start your lessons?

 

[azblackbird]

So, how's that instructor search going? When do you start your lessons?

Studying for my PPL and instrument written as we speak. Lessons will probably start this fall once my business is launched and has enough legs that I can take off and do nothing but fly for a few months. I hate summer time flying here in PHX. It's brutal!

 

[problematique]

- Get yourself one of these http://www.mypilotstore.com/MyPilotStore/sep/9983?gclid=COCv3qW8h9MCFQFqfgodBJwKmA

for summer. Works great.
- Shoot me a PM if you're still looking for an instructor, I may have someone for you.
- Yeah, in all 107,000 miles on my Wing it's never let me down once. Very smooth, very fast, handles like a dream! Still runs like the day I bought off the showroom floor.
- The only intelligent argument I could think up with regards to long XC flights would be don't outfly your own experience level. But that's pretty much a given.

 

[azblackbird]

Shoot me a PM if you're still looking for an instructor, I may have someone for you.

I would imagine that cooler would work great when it's dry out, but with the humidity we get with the "monsoons" here, seems like you'd be adding moisture on top of moisture.

I've got a couple instructors that were recommended by friends, plus a couple more at Glendale airport I have bookmarked to interview. Haven't contacted any of them yet as it will probably be around fall before I start getting serious about flying. Between now and then I might take a few "discovery flights" with them just to get a feel of their teaching mannerisms.

 

[problematique]

I would imagine that cooler would work great when it's dry out, but with the humidity we get with the "monsoons" here, seems like you'd be adding moisture on top of moisture.

I've got a couple instructors that were recommended by friends, plus a couple more at Glendale airport I have bookmarked to interview. Haven't contacted any of them yet as it will probably be around fall before I start getting serious about flying. Between now and then I might take a few "discovery flights" with them just to get a feel of their teaching mannerisms.

- Glendale has some good instructors. I did the bulk of my training out of Glendale

- Even with monsoon season it's still not bad, I can't even recall humidity being a problem. Ground ops is when you really need the cooling, then the temperature is just fine after you climb out of 5'000 feet. Besides, you're a hardcore Winger, I thought? Temp shouldn't bother you at all.

 

[Ronbonjovi]

I am not talking about sharing with family. I have no family to share with who gives a crap about aviation. They prefer to not hear anything about it. I am talking about sharing with my fellow pilot friends out in the hangar where we do not have electrical power or internet service.

Tony

Yeah I don't have many people that like hearing me blab about my aviation experiences. Hence why I cam here . My friends all say the same thing pretty much. "Cool story Ron, just let me know when I can get in the plane with you and then I'll be interested."

As far as logbooks I use a standard pilot log book and then use myflightbook.com to log it as well as a backup. It is completely free and fits all of my needs.

 

[azblackbird]

Besides, you're a hardcore Winger, I thought? Temp shouldn't bother you at all.

LOL... funny thing about the Wing temp gauge. I goes to 115° after that it says ERROR. BTDT many times, not fun. We prefer to do our summer time riding in the hills. Get up at the crack of dawn head for the hills and don't comeback until it's dark. I'll get my ground school knocked out this summer and save all my flying for fall, winter, and spring. Thanks for all your help.

 

[denverpilot]

Yeah I don't have many people that like hearing me blab about my aviation experiences. Hence why I cam here . My friends all say the same thing pretty much. "Cool story Ron, just let me know when I can get in the plane with you and then I'll be interested."

Soon you'll be amazed at how many of those who said they want to know when they can go up with you, always seem to have something else to do when you ask if they want to. Hahaha.

 

[MikeAg03]

I haven't started flight lessons but am having this same dilema. I think I may just do digital and in particular am leaning towards MyFlightBook. I use android... am considering an ipad for Foreflight, but don't want to lock myself into Foreflight or Garmin/etc and think perhaps a stand alone flightbook app is a better direction. The school I'm leaning towards going to has older instructors, so I'm a bit unsure what they'll say when I show up with that vs a paper logbook.
If I go the paper route, I think I'd want to buy a super nice leather bound one... anyone have any recommendations?

 

[jordane93]

I haven't started flight lessons but am having this same dilema. I think I may just do digital and in particular am leaning towards MyFlightBook. I use android... am considering an ipad for Foreflight, but don't want to lock myself into Foreflight or Garmin/etc and think perhaps a stand alone flightbook app is a better direction. The school I'm leaning towards going to has older instructors, so I'm a bit unsure what they'll say when I show up with that vs a paper logbook.
If I go the paper route, I think I'd want to buy a super nice leather bound one... anyone have any recommendations?

Get whatever is cheapest. Doesn't need to be a fancy logbook.

 

[problematique]

I suggest buying the Jeppesen logbook that you find in the pilot shop for your training. That way you'll have all of your signatures in one spot nice and neat. After your solo go for electronic and toss the book in a safe place until you need another physical sign off.
I use Zululog for hours and Foreflight for navigation. I am really thinking about going with Foreflight for logging hours now since they've seemed to corner the market in every other aspect. I definitely push Foreflight over everything- easy to use, checklist built in, traffic, weather, synthetic vision, weight & balance, flight filing, IFR plates, Logbook...that's just off the top of my head.

 

[Ronbonjovi]

I haven't started flight lessons but am having this same dilema. I think I may just do digital and in particular am leaning towards MyFlightBook. I use android... am considering an ipad for Foreflight, but don't want to lock myself into Foreflight or Garmin/etc and think perhaps a stand alone flightbook app is a better direction. The school I'm leaning towards going to has older instructors, so I'm a bit unsure what they'll say when I show up with that vs a paper logbook.
If I go the paper route, I think I'd want to buy a super nice leather bound one... anyone have any recommendations?

https://www.amazon.com/Standard-Pil...&qid=1491315115&sr=8-2&keywords=pilot+logbook