Log books... old school, electronic, or both?

[azblackbird]

Recently while digging around in the back of my closet (which basically got all this rolling again), I found all my old ppl training books and gadgets from over 30 years ago, but I couldn't find my logbook. I had a little over 6 hours logged time in a 182 and a Citabria. The last place I could remember where it might be is at the FBO where I received my training. I figured just for s**ts and giggles I’d call up whomever was baby sitting the airport in Brush, CO, and ask them if they wouldn’t mind taking a look around in some of the shelves, desk drawers, and filing cabinets. I had my fingers crossed but to no avail, the nice lady called me back and said no dice, and that they’ve changed FBO management over the years and they’d always move stuff in and move stuff out. Oh well, I gave it a go.

I’m not worried about losing those hours, but here in the near future I plan on taking several “re-discovery” flights to more or less find myself an instructor who I feel comfortable and am in sync with. I definitely plan on logging those hours! I know there are several places that have online logbooks. I plan to make use of those services as backups to my paper logbook once I start flying regularly.

Here’s my question... obviously I will have a few different instructors sign-off on my paper logbook until I find the right guy/gal. If I set up an online logbook as a backup, do I do the actual entries myself, and then give them a code that they can sign in under to review what I logged and then sign off with a digital signature that I received instruction?

Just wondering how all that works?

 

[Sundancer]

Just me, but even as an IT guy, I don't want to invest the time in establishing and maintaining an online/electronic logbook. Scads of feature bloat to click thru, or ignore, or muck with before getting up to speed on just the parts that matter to me.

That said, I never lost one, either. I do copy the latest few pages occasionally, like an "incremental" backup. If I was a professional pilot, I'd most defintely have a real, physical logbook. . All software sucks. . .

 

[Shawn]

Personally here is what I do:

All hours go into my digital logbook....that gets backed up regularly with an export to Dropbox

Anything that requires a CFI, sign off, endorsements or enrty by someone else goes in my paper log book...that is all that is used for now. That then gets entered by me into my digital log book as well as scanned and backed up to Dropbox.

Hours are easy to rebuild should something go haywire with a digital log book...CFI sign offs and endorsements...not so easy.

 

[TommyG]

I use myflightbook for all my flights. I havent put anything in my paper logbook in years. I figure I am not trying to go to the airlines. So why do so much unnecessary work.

 

[azblackbird]

I do copy the latest few pages occasionally, like an "incremental" backup. If I was a professional pilot, I'd most defintely have a real, physical logbook. . All software sucks. . .

Not a bad idea either. Just scan the paper after each flight and backup on both a flash and hard drive just in case. Would that be considered a dual-redundant system?

 

[problematique]

Personally here is what I do:

All hours go into my digital logbook....that gets backed up regularly with an export to Dropbox

Anything that requires a CFI, sign off, endorsements or enrty by someone else goes in my paper log book...that is all that is used for now. That then gets entered by me into my digital log book as well as scanned and backed up to Dropbox.

Hours are easy to rebuild should something go haywire with a digital log book...CFI sign offs and endorsements...not so easy.

I second that idea, digital is great. Any required signatures just go in the paper log.
ZuluLog is absolutely perfect for this task. Quick and easy. And you can always print the logs for backup. Web based so it's on the phone and iPad too. No excuse to forget.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Mine is currently quite similar to @Shawn. It has changed through the years and will probably continue to change.

I've been using an electronic logbook for more than 20 years. My first was written in a DOS database program that eventually got ported to Windows and currently runs in Access. It was intended and used as backup for my paper log.

I tried a few of the online eLogs as they showed up on the scene and have been using MyFlightbook pretty much since it started up. About 2-3 years ago, MyFlightbook became my primary and I have only used my paper log for things that require someone else's signature. Like @Shawn, I also put that information in my eLog, but I don't bother scanning anything except endorsements.

I suspect the next step for me will be to drop the paper log altogether. ELogs can be signed and even if I continue to use paper for endorsements, they don't need to go into a bound book from ASA or Jepp.

 

[azblackbird]

ELogs can be signed and even if I continue to use paper for endorsements, they don't need to go into a bound book from ASA or Jepp.

What's the process with multiple instructors? I use Docu-Sign in my business, so I would imagine theres something similar in nature (logbook wise) that allows multiple instructors or examiners to digitally sign an E-logbook.

 

[midlifeflyer]

What's the process with multiple instructors? I use Docu-Sign in my business, so I would imagine theres something similar in nature (logbook wise) that allows multiple instructors or examiners to digitally sign an E-logbook.

I'm no expert in the variations but, as an example (@EricBe can correct me), MyFlightbook uses two types. If the CFI is registered, the system uses its own verification process. If not, it uses the simple expedient of allowing a graphic signature with finger or stylus on a tablet or phone, similar to the way you sign credit card transactions with point of sale apps like Square or ShopKeep (which, in turn is similar to what takes place with pen and paper).

 

[jordane93]

I'm more old school and haven't backed up my paper book with electronic. I scan every page once it's complete and save it onto my computer.

 

[James331]

My old log is scanned and backed up, my new log is excel based and in the cloud so I can make changes anywhere, also a local copy is stored in a few places.

That said, since you're a student pilot, just go with paper, it's easier and your CFI doesn't want to deal with electronic stuff for a pre PPL, I love my tech, but I'm not loggin in every time to make a entry in a students log book, sorry, nope, and not many CFIs are going to be down for that pain in the arse, maybe after you get your ticket(s) go electronic.

 

[korben88]

I use myflightbook for solo flights (I like the auto fill) and then backup in the paper book before a lesson.

 

[Chesney]

I have a simple back-up for my paper logbook. Every time I finish a page or get a new endorsement I take a picture of it using my iphone. Instantly goes into the cloud; accessible from any device. Takes 3 seconds. I also drop the new photo(s) into an Album to keep them all together. Just so I won't forget I have a post-it bookmark stuck to the "active" page in the log-book (makes it easy to flip to right page) and on it is a reminder to take the pic(s) when I finish the page.


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[DFH65]

Both for me. I log everything on paper all sign offs in the log book. I then put it all on MyFlightBook which is awesome I also backup from MFB to excel spreadsheet. The beauty of the electronic book is calculating totals and such or querying the data is easy peasy.

 

[Grum.Man]

I still do everything on paper.

 

[1600vw]

I watched a webinar on log books. This person explained that most will fly somewhere and at the end of the day fill in a line or two in the log book. Then years later will look at this and not see a whole lot just some lines written on a page. She then showed her log book. Each page was a flight along with pictures. She said years later you can now look back and have something to look at besides a couple lines in a book. You have a story and pics. You can not do this with an electronic log book.

 

[midlifeflyer]

My old log is scanned and backed up, my new log is excel based and in the cloud so I can make changes anywhere, also a local copy is stored in a few places.

That said, since you're a student pilot, just go with paper, it's easier and your CFI doesn't want to deal with electronic stuff for a pre PPL, I love my tech, but I'm not loggin in every time to make a entry in a students log book, sorry, nope, and not many CFIs are going to be down for that pain in the arse, maybe after you get your ticket(s) go electronic.

CFIs will vary in that. A good number record training digitally in personal or flight school systems anyway.

But, at least these days, there is still enough personal confusion and variation about the viability and acceptance of digital logbooks to make a paper student logbook worthwhile, even if it is abandoned after getting the certificate

I think, though, if one plans to go digital ultimately, might as well start entering the data sans instructor signatures now instead of waiting and having to do it en masse. That's a real PITA.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I watched a webinar on log books. This person explained that most will fly somewhere and at the end of the day fill in a line or two in the log book. Then years later will look at this and not see a whole lot just some lines written on a page. She then showed her log book. Each page was a flight along with pictures. She said years later you can now look back and have something to look at besides a couple lines in a book. You have a story and pics. You can not do this with an electronic log book.

Says who?

Funny, as I read your post, I thought you were going to end with how you can do that with a digital logbook and not with a paper one. Which would be equally untrue.

 

[Ravioli]

Paper. Scan completed pages (they fill up fast)

@1600vw - I met a person that was very detailed in his dive log book and saw the value of that. I still don't do it. But for people who keep a journal and like jotting all that down it is really cool, and that persons notes of the last time at that dive site vs the dive we did were interesting. Mostly I'm just lazy and do the minimal required documentation. Perhaps when I retire..... nah, probably won't do it then either. Old dogs and all that.

As the previous threads always conclude: It's your log.

 

[MetalCloud]

Says who?

Funny, as I read your post, I thought you were going to end with how you can do that with a digital logbook and not with a paper one. Which would be equally untrue.

That's what I was thinking as well!

 

[MetalCloud]

Until after IFR rating, I solely used paper. Then I started using ForeFlight as my primary, and I still write flights in my paper logbook. FF makes recording keeping and currency easy.

I just imported the totals at the time of the switch as one flight, so that way I didn't a) have to copy in tons of flight details and b) I could have accurate totals

 

[James331]

CFIs will vary in that. A good number record training digitally in personal or flight school systems anyway.

But, at least these days, there is still enough personal confusion and variation about the viability and acceptance of digital logbooks to make a paper student logbook worthwhile, even if it is abandoned after getting the certificate

I think, though, if one plans to go digital ultimately, might as well start entering the data sans instructor signatures now instead of waiting and having to do it en masse. That's a real PITA.

I've never understood why people do that.

With mine I simply scanned my paper logs, stored them in the same cloud and computers as my new digital excel (or sheets) log, and I simply forward my times over to the first page of my new electronic log.

Why someone would type and duplicate each flight over, vs one scanned PDF and a simple forwarding to total times is beyond me.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I've never understood why people do that.

With mine I simply scanned my paper logs, stored them in the same cloud and computers as my new digital excel (or sheets) log, and I simply forward my times over to the first page of my new electronic log.

Why someone would type and duplicate each flight over, vs one scanned PDF and a simple forwarding to total times is beyond me.

A desire for completeness? Extra time on their hands? Just wanna? Discover all the math errors they made along the way? Make everything searchable to make things easier to find?

 

[1600vw]

My point that everyone seemed to miss. Unless you like passing your tablet around to everyone, you can not hold the book and pictures in your hand. You loose that personal feeling. Maybe I am just old school and like holding a book and pictures and not some electronic device.

 

[James331]

And from the CFI stand point, if I got a student right after you and I'm waiting to fill your log out right after the flight, I don't have time to watch you charge your phone, or deal with no internet access, or forgotten passwords, or..... That's just holding me up and my next student up, plus if you get ramped on a cross country or something, I really don't need your iphone to die before you can show the ASI your endorsements.

 

[Hacker]

You have a story and pics. You can not do this with an electronic log book.

I use an Excel-based digital logbook, which allows me to write entire paragraphs of comments about individual flights, including attaching photos. For me, this was particularly useful in writing "there I was..." stories from my military flying.

And, like others have mentioned, I have my paper log to collect signatures and endorsements when required, and scans of those sigs in the e-logbook.

For the folks who want something tangible, the file prints out into a really nice logbook that I've had printed in color at FedEx Office...

 

[coloradobluesky]

I vote old school. Still the best way.

 

[problematique]

Like most everything else, personal preference. I'm a new school kinda guy always looking for the most logical and efficient approach to everything. Typically the advancement of technology provides this if I'm willing to learn. Earlier I mentioned Zululog- It does everything I need and does it better than handwritten. There's a flight remarks section, personal remarks section, maps your flight, reminds you of currency, does not need an internet connection to log, backs up automatically, prints everything out nice and neat if needed, can't be lost, can't be destroyed in a fire, etc. etc. FAA accepts electronic books, I'm all for it. Plus it's free with the option to upgrade for additional features.

 

[azblackbird]

Why someone would type and duplicate each flight over, vs one scanned PDF and a simple forwarding to total times is beyond me.

I like that idea. I can see how it could become a pain in the ass to enter your logs twice.

 

[MAKG1]

I like that idea. I can see how it could become a pain in the ass to enter your logs twice.

Because, as a solo student, you are required to carry your logbook on your cross-country flights. And remember, the FAA defines "cross country" as requiring navigation; the 50 mile limit doesn't apply here.

If your phone dies, you are in violation.

See 14 CFR 61.51(i)(2).

 

[Hacker]

Because, as a solo student, you are required to carry your logbook on your cross-country flights. And remember, the FAA defines "cross country" as requiring navigation; the 50 mile limit doesn't apply here.

If your phone dies, you are in violation.

See 14 CFR 61.51(i)(2).

Yep, for some reasons, you need a physical logbook (e.g. students, endorsements, etc). For everything else, you don't.

 

[AggieMike88]

I use myflightbook for all my flights. I havent put anything in my paper logbook in years. I figure I am not trying to go to the airlines. So why do so much unnecessary work.

I also keep my info on MFB (big fan of the product and developer @EricBe), but then spend time periodically transcribed into my paper book.

MFB is great for the immediacy, and the ability to quickly tabulate/calculate for the 8710. Paper is for back up.

 

[Hacker]

I like that idea. I can see how it could become a pain in the ass to enter your logs twice.

The biggest benefit -- and biggest Achilles heel -- of taking physical logbook data and line-by-line entering it into digital form is accuracy of data.

When I switched to digital, the purpose was for me to synthesize about 5 years of military flying in with 10 years of civilian flying prior to, and concurrent with, that into one seamless/searchable/customizable database. As others have noted, I can't even remember how many math errors I rooted out of my civilian logbooks when I did that, but the number of errors was notable.

Then, for years afterward, I forced myself to perform occasional line-by-line audits in preparation for applying to the airlines. During those audits, I found all kinds of errors here and there from mistakes I made in the data entry, from commas instead of periods (1,6 instead of 1.6) to transposition of digits (8.0 instead of 0.8).

Overall I think it was a benefit to perform the one-time dual entry of data, but there were certainly pluses and minuses overall to the process and the subsequent upkeep.

 

[problematique]

Because, as a solo student, you are required to carry your logbook on your cross-country flights. And remember, the FAA defines "cross country" as requiring navigation; the 50 mile limit doesn't apply here.

If your phone dies, you are in violation.

See 14 CFR 61.51(i)(2).

True, however I think it takes the same amount of foresight to bring your phone charger along for the flight, as say- to bring your logbook along for the unlikely event you get ramp checked. Also I've noticed a lot of pilots that go the "electronic" route typically use a iPad or something similar - which tend to have a 10 hr battery life fully charged.

 

[James331]

True, however I think it takes the same amount of foresight to bring your phone charger along for the flight, as say- to bring your logbook along for the unlikely event you get ramp checked. Also I've noticed a lot of pilots that go the "electronic" route typically use a iPad or something similar - which tend to have a 10 hr battery life fully charged.

Battery life and durability and availability and ease of use of endorsements in a paper log is still better, and seeing how the FAA is administrative law, I wouldn't even want to play that game with student pilots.

 

[Rykymus]

I used the standard paper logbook all through initial PPL. Then I started using Safelog. Once I started instrument training, I filled in my paper logs to include all the post-PPL flights, as it was easier to carry a paper log and use it during training (and for the checkride) than using the digital. However, I still maintained the digital one. (To protect me against math errors.) After completing my IR, I went back to digital log only, but my wife periodically updates my paper logs from the digital version. (She writes neater.)

I have 3 iDevices with me at all times when flying, two of which are always plugged into power. (Third is turned off in flight bag.) So I'm pretty sure I'll always have one that works.

And yes, I keep backups. I also keep a USB stick with scans of my logbooks with me in my flight bag.

I'm about to try transferring all my data from Safelog into Foreflight. Now that they have a checklist feature in there as well, I want to try out their logbook. Now, if they'd only get an E6B app embedded in there as well.

 

[problematique]

Battery life and durability and availability and ease of use of endorsements in a paper log is still better, and seeing how the FAA is administrative law, I wouldn't even want to play that game with student pilots.

I hear ya, to an extent, with regards to students. I didn't start electronic logging until post-student flying. Endorsements beyond that just simply went into the paper log and sits at home getting dusty. As for the administrative law I don't think it's as bad as it's made out to be. The majority of student pilots will never be ramp checked. And then on that off-chance they have a dead battery and no charger too... Personally I say long odds.
My friend says "Heck no, I don't want a digital trace of my logbooks. I want those suckers to burn up right with me in the plane crash"

 

[midlifeflyer]

My point that everyone seemed to miss. Unless you like passing your tablet around to everyone, you can not hold the book and pictures in your hand. You loose that personal feeling. Maybe I am just old school and like holding a book and pictures and not some electronic device.

I think everyone got your point. I know I did.

Yes, you are old school. But that's the point. You are using being old school as a way to find reasons to denigrate one medium for another. Why would you have to pass the tablet around? How about the whole family gathered around the living room fireplace sharing memories of grandpa while watching the pictures of his life flash on the 80-foot screen overhead, together, all at the same time? Heck,, a generation from now, that might be passe too.

I've made slide shows of photographs of my parents, one for each. I pull them out on mothers day and fathers day (not every one) and share them with family on Facebook. Sorry you think sharing that with my family, flung from Maine to Miami and NY to LA, is a bad idea dn it would be much better to wait until we can sit together (probably never) and pass it around. I don't.

Not your cup of tea? That's fine. But it might be theirs. So make the choice for yourself. Neither your choices nor mine are "best" for anyone except you and me. If you really think some B&Ws in a yellowing scrapbook are the best window into life, by all means, stick with it. (and yes, you are saying that, maybe an updated version of it, but it's the same thing)

My only point is media changes through the centuries. I'm sure there are history buffs who would much rather read something on papyrus than newsprint. But it's presumptive to think that our choices are best for the whole world or eve the next generation of our own families.

But maybe I'm just "new school" and when I get older I'll understand better.

 

[lancie00]

As long as you're not looking to become a professional pilot I would go with paper. You never know when "life" happens and you don't fly for a few years. Then can you remember your password? Has that software been replaced? Maybe apple went broke. Lots of things can happen with electronic versions. I like paper copies with digital pictures of each page.

 

[murphey]

Just me, but even as an IT guy, I don't want to invest the time in establishing and maintaining an online/electronic logbook. Scads of feature bloat to click thru, or ignore, or muck with before getting up to speed on just the parts that matter to me.

That said, I never lost one, either. I do copy the latest few pages occasionally, like an "incremental" backup. If I was a professional pilot, I'd most defintely have a real, physical logbook. . All software sucks. . .

My primary log book is physical. Yes, I also use an electronic version - makes it so much easier when dealing with the FAA, flight schools, rentals when out of town, etc. Just like I do with the airplane logs, every time a page is filled, I take a snapshot with the camera. When I finish the taxes every year, everything is burned to 2 CD/DVDs (taxes, log books, important letters, etc). One for the safe deposit box, one for my fire box at home. The log books get two extras - one that stays in the airplane and one that I give to the shop every year during the annual so they can more easily search to whatever ADs, changes, etc.