Lockheed Martin ICAO Flight Plan

[MD11Pilot]

I have had trouble (and NO I didn't watch all of their videos) getting the airports in the Dept or Dest fields to be accepted for small airports. My son has a plane at Mt. Vernon Knox County in Mt. Vernon Ohio and its identifier is 4I3. Despite using 4I3 Or K4I3 which was suggested by the form, it would never accept so I sent in a question to tech support and here is the answer I received...I tried it and it works.

Danny Drew
Thank you for contacting the Flight Service National Support Center.

The issue you were having has been examined by our engineering team and they believe they have found the solution.
For domestic dep/dest in the ICAO form please use ZZZZ in dep/dest field and then enter DEP/ or DEST/ in the Other Information Field. Please refer to ICAO Flight Plan Form Validation section in Help Guide (p. 70).



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-----Original Message-----
From: Danny Drew [mailto:dandrewmd11@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2017 8:56 PM
To: Fc-AFSS, LMFS NSC (RESOURCE) <lmfs.nsc.fc-afss@lmco.com>
Subject: EXTERNAL: Website Feedback
Please describe your question, concern, or recommendation.
When I use the ICAO form and put in some smaller airports i.e. Mount Vernon Knox County Ohio, 4I3 I get an error message that it is not correct. I use the search function and it gives me the option of K4I3 but then the ICAO form still gives the same error message but on the FAA Domestic Form it accepts it. I have found this at several smaller airports. I prefer the ICAO form as it will be the standard soon.
Thanks

 

[DGlaeser]

Yeah the first time I used the ICAO form I ran into the same issue. Only airports in the ICAO list can be used for departure/destination. All the others need the ZZZZ - DEP/ - DEST/ 'trick'. Supposedly the FAA is going to fix that one of these days, but apparently that day isn't here yet.

 

[BGF_Yankee]

This must be why I had trouble activating my flight plan to M08 the other day...:/

 

[iamtheari]

Yeah the first time I used the ICAO form I ran into the same issue. Only airports in the ICAO list can be used for departure/destination. All the others need the ZZZZ - DEP/ - DEST/ 'trick'. Supposedly the FAA is going to fix that one of these days, but apparently that day isn't here yet.

If the FAA starts changing it, then the net result is that we still have a separate domestic flight plan form, except now it's a more complicated one with the wrong name (ICAO). I don't like calling things the wrong name.

I don't like entering ZZZZ into the flight plan form that much, either, but at least it's (apparently) consistent with the rest of the ICAO world. And on the whole, I don't mind the ICAO flight plan form.

 

[flyingron]

An airport with numbers in the ID is not ICAO compliant. You can't legally put them in an international plan. The FAA, I supposed could cheat and allow them (much as they also publish METARs with these IDs), but it's really against the rules...hence the ZZZZ hack.

 

[iamtheari]

the ZZZZ hack.

Is it really a hack? Here's a European guide to the ICAO flight plan form: http://files.eurofpl.eu/originalfpl/pdfs/EuroFPL-ICAO_Flightplan_Form_Basics-latest.pdf

It includes use of ZZZZ and DEP/... or DEST/... (also can use ZZZZ if your plane doesn't have an ICAO type identifier). The format is given as Name and Coordinates (ddmmNdddmmE format). So maybe the use of just an FAA airport identifier instead of including the latitude and longitude is a hack. But using ZZZZ in general is apparently part of the ICAO standard. And if the point of the exercise of changing flight plans is to standardize, then we really should follow the standard. (I'm not necessarily in favor of standardizing. But I really hate dishonesty. Call a spade a spade and don't hand me a hoe and claim it's a spade.)

 

[flyingron]

Well, I mean it's a hack that you have to resort to it, not that it's not a valid use on the plan.

 

[midlifeflyer]

The good news is that most flight plan filing sites (other than L-M) and EFB apps take care of that for you. I've been filing ICAO flight plans since they were first announced as the coming thing for domestic flights and have never had to resort to typing in the DEP/ or DEST/ parameter myself.

 

[iamtheari]

Well, I mean it's a hack that you have to resort to it, not that it's not a valid use on the plan.

Fair enough. There are 17,576 possible combinations of three letters to go after the K. A quick search claims there are 15,095 recognizable airfields and 5,194 with paved runways in the USA. So there is a workaround, just one with a lot of paperwork.

The good news is that most flight plan filing sites (other than L-M) and EFB apps take care of that for you. I've been filing ICAO flight plans since they were first announced as the coming thing for domestic flights and have never had to resort to typing in the DEP/ or DEST/ parameter myself.

And oddly enough, 1800wxbrief.com not only allows you to put lies like "KS25" into the ICAO flight plan form, but also puts them in for you if you search for and click on your airport.

 

[flyingron]

Fair enough. There are 17,576 possible combinations of three letters to go after the K. A quick search claims there are 15,095 recognizable airfields and 5,194 with paved runways in the USA. So there is a workaround, just one with a lot of paperwork.

I think your search missed a few. I find somewhere between 19300 and 19700 based on the FAA's reports. Even after you subtract about 800 for those in Alaska or Hawaii (these use the P prefix), you're still going to run out of identifiers.

 

[iamtheari]

I think your search missed a few. I find somewhere between 19300 and 19700 based on the FAA's reports. Even after you subtract about 800 for those in Alaska or Hawaii (these use the P prefix), you're still going to run out of identifiers.

Well shucks. What if Calexit succeeds?

 

[bobmrg]

My sympathy bucket is a little low today. The basic reference is AIM 5-1-9, but there are very good YouTube videos as well as those on the Leidos page. ZZZZ should not be a big surprise to anyone.

Bob

 

[John Collins]

The ZZZZ applies to all non ICAO departure, destination, or alternates. So you use this when the airport is a latitude-longitude, fix-radial-distance, VOR, Waypoint, or non ICAO identifier. Examples of non ICAO identifiers are 60J, 35A, SFO, LAX, CLT/210/014, 3500N08000W. ICAO identifiers are 4 alpha characters, so KSFO is San Francisco, SFO is a VOR. In the US, the lower 48 begin with a K and there are no numbers allowed. Alaska and Hawaii begin with a P. ForeFlight handles this detail for the pilot under the covers. 1800WXBRIEF.COM will also handle this detail under the covers, currently planned for roll out 3/21/2017 with the FAA switchover to ICAO scheduled for 3/28/2017. Under the covers, the ZZZZ remains as it is the ICAO standard.