Little planes over big water… would you do it?

Would you fly a single engine plane beyond gliding distance over open water?

  • Yes

    Votes: 75 84.3%

  • No

    Votes: 14 15.7%
  • Total voters
    89
Coloradokevin

Coloradokevin

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Coloradokevin
I'm just curious about where you all stand on your opinions about water crossings in small airplanes. I stumbled onto a thread of this type on another aviation forum recently, and was surprised to see how many people were 100% against crossing the great lakes in a single engine aircraft. I'll fully admit that the subject is not without risk, but I wasn't so quick to dismiss the idea entirely.

My personal arguments in favor of these crossings are as follows:

1) I grew up next to big water, and was taking family trips in very small boats beyond sight of the shore at a very early age. Water isn't unfamiliar territory to me.

2) I'm a competent swimmer.

3) I usually carry self-rescue equipment appropriate to my mission when flying (which would include, at a minimum, for big water crossings: a life vest, a PLB, and some sort of signaling device).

4) The way I see things, you are no more likely to lose an engine in the middle of a lake than you are over a farm field in Iowa. And, while the farm field in Iowa could be a preferable landing site, the reality is that many of us routinely fly over terrain that is far less land-able than an open body of water (forests, cities, mountains, in IMC, etc.).

5) I realize that even crossing a body of water like the great lakes usually only leaves you exposed to an open water landing for a few minutes of the flight… if you are high enough you are only really out of gliding range for 10-15 minutes(?)

6) Even in open water there are often ships around (at least on the great lakes), and ditching near a ship is always a possibility for expediting a rescue.


Of course, there are some strong counter-arguments on this subject:

1) Cold water kills quickly, making water temperature and survival equipment for the season a huge factor in a ditching.

2) Rescue could take longer when you're 10 miles or more off-shore than when you're in farmer Bob's wheat field.

3) A plane in the water is going to sink eventually, possibly quickly, leaving you to float with whatever survival gear you exited the aircraft with.



This is really just an academic debate at the moment, as Colorado isn't anywhere near any big water. But, I just wanted to see where you guys stand on this subject, and why. Please feel free to answer the poll question as well!
 
What's the water temp? I suspect that I'd be fine with doing it in the summertime, but would generally avoid crossing the Lakes in a single in the winter.
 
Fearless Tower said:
What's the water temp? I suspect that I'd be fine with doing it in the summertime, but would generally avoid crossing the Lakes in a single in the winter.
Click to expand...

That was definitely my single biggest consideration as well. I've jumped in Lake Erie in January, and I've been dumped from whitewater rafts into 40 degree water in the past… cold water will kill you faster than anything else in a ditching. I should also note that I intentionally left those kinds of specifics out of the poll simply because I just wanted to get an overall idea of whether or not pilots would even consider the idea.
 
The airplane doesn't know it's over the water. Do the lakes to Osh all the time,also trips to the Bahamas.
 
Fearless Tower said:
What's the water temp? I suspect that I'd be fine with doing it in the summertime, but would generally avoid crossing the Lakes in a single in the winter.
Click to expand...

I agree with this. Other than a little extra planning and carrying some extra safety/survival stuff I don't see what the big beef is over it.
 
Might do a search on this, I know it has been discussed quite a bit in the past. There were those in favor and those against (and vociferously so, imagine that). Anyway, good points were made in past threads. Not to detract from this new thread, however.
 
I guess anything is possible to do if you throughly prepare for it. I do flights Florida to venezuela frequently in a single mooney 201J. I did survival training, studied water ditching, spoke with coast guard specialists and prepared the airplane accordingly. No problem whatsoever, starting with rigorous pre flights and very strict adherence to maintenance of the aircraft. I think I am safer while flying than almost anywhere else. Always fly high, and always carry way more fuel than you will need.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Once you learn to ignore "automatic rough" you are fine.
 
A "controlled" landing into the water is the best option. Flip overs do in fact happen with doors that don't open so let me ask this would you crack the door open when landing into the water?

Water landings don't scare me much...Fire in the engine? Well that is another story!
 
Flew a Warrior from Volk Field WI to Alpena MI years ago. Think I crossed just south of Green Bay and south of Traverse City MI across Lake Michgan. Had another guy with me and I messed with him about halfway across by saying, "hey man, that engine sounding rough". Didn't go over well.
 
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The warm water from Florida to Bahamas, with pleasure boats in sight everywhere you look. You'll live.

The cold water of Lake Michigan or Lake Superior, with no boats or rescue. You'll die.
 
I am one of the no's, I fly purely for pleasure and mitigate all the risks I can within reason. I have no reason to cross open water, it's a risk not worth it to me. Yes, I know it is a very small risk, the upside does not overcome even that for me though.
 
Sure why not. I flew with my buddy in his warrior from OSH to Ohio and crossed lake Michigan and Lake Erie. At some point you just got to trust that engine.
 
I've flown to Catalina several times; and instrument approaches to some coastal airports take you well offshore at low altitudes. It's a calculated risk. Likewise, anybody who flies in mountainous areas of the west has to deal with times here and there when an engine failure would be more than just inconvenient.
 
Helps to be IFR rated if doing the flight at night. Gets mighty dark out there with no moon. Otherwise, no problem.
 
Generally yes, if the water isn't too cold. Why not? Stay in contact with ATC and adjust the safety / survival gear accordingly.

I actually never understood why people are afraid to fly over water, but fly without a second thought at night, over big cities or hostile terrain.
Other than after hitting buildings, mountains, power lines or trees, people usually get out of the plane OK after ditching. Surviving until rescue arrives is a different story, this is where ATC and survival gear come into play.

Personally, if I had an engine failure over a lake, surrounded by a forest, I would rather ditch in the lake than to crash-land into the trees.
 
Nope. I live on the coast. If I'm not within gliding distance of land, I'm not happy. Had to fly around some clouds going north to SBA a few months ago. Put me a few miles off shore when I typically follow the 101 up. I was NOT happy, even though I was within gliding range of the coastline.

The ocean and I have an agreement. I stay the hell away from it and it leaves me alone. That's the deal.
 
I fly in SE Alaska. Water and rugged terrain in every direction. Beaches have rocks the size of a VW bus. Water temperature is normally in the low 40's.

I would rather have the plane flip over landing next to the shore than hit a VW bus or 200 foot spruce.
 
My farthest single engine was MMLM - MMLO (Los Mochis-Loreto, Mexico), have done twice. Only about 120nm over warm shark-infested waters. It was so beautiful I think it muted out the risk in my mind. Not a single boat on most passages. Looked very shallow but I'm sure it wasn't. I remember studying survival times and monitoring surface temps from NOAA, not that it would matter. It is absolutely gorgeous out there.
 
Solo, I'd do warm water crossings in a single no problem, daytime only. With family, that's the one mission where I fully concede to the otherwise underwhelming piston twin, also daytime only. Cold water? No way in piston equipment. My criteria is all about the egress and survival scenario. I prefer crashing with family on board over the Eastern US at night than ditching with them day or night.
 
This AvWeb article discusses ditching in detail: http://www.avweb.com/news/safety/183010-1.html

The titel ' Ditching Old Wives' Tales' already gives an indication of what the article's conclusion might be... ;)
Looking at the statics, they discuss in this article, I would think that ditching appears to be the most survivable way to emergency land a plane. Particularly if it is ditched not too far off-shore and if the occupants are prepared. I also assume that it would be beneficial if only the front seats are occupied.
 
In the article above, they reference to an article by Paul Bertorelli: Ditching Myths Torpedoed! http://www.equipped.com/ditchingmyths.htm

He states in his article that 'of the 179 ditchings we reviewed, only 22, or 12 percent, resulted in fatalities' and also that 'in the 179 accidents we reviewed, only one mentioned flipping over on impact'. He also found that 'overall, out of 179 ditchings, we found seven in which the occupants didn't escape and three of these were high wave conditions in the open sea'.

Quite impressive, IMHO. Proper preparation would have likely further reduced the number of fatalities.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
I knew a couple who ferried Mooneys USA to Australia for a while.
And there is this story that must always be a part of such threads!
Click to expand...

Now, I could see myself going across the Great Lakes, but that's quite a story there. A C150 across the ocean is an ambitious undertaking, for sure.
 
Surviving in the water presumes, of course, that you survive egress of the airplane, which may be a lot more challenging than some imagine. You can spend time with closed eyes trying to develop muscle memory for where the handle is, but it probably won't be much help if you end up upside-down with water rushing in, and break the fragile little handle off your door. There's a special course in a pool with divers that teaches water egress techniques.

Somewhere out there is an interview with the father of this story (if I'm not crossing my wires): http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...e-accident-flips-Lake-Goodwin-Washington.html
He talks about how he and others dove down over and over again and couldn't operate the handle from outside the overturned airplane.
 
I'm more worried when flying over cities like Boston or NY. No place to land there....
 
Most of you guys are full of BS--bravado supremo. I grew up on the south shore of Lake Erie and spent much of my flying career over one or another of the Lakes, always in at least a twin and mostly in twin-engine jets. Do it in a single-engine corn popper? No way, Jose. See the current thread about the cracked cylinder over Coney Island.

dtuuri
 
I vote a qualified yes. I have done it and will do it once in a while, but not all the time and not even often. To go the long way around one of the big lakes is, to me, to give up one of the big advantages of aviation over driving. And there are a few great island destinations where it isn't even possible to get there without exposing oneself to the risk of having to ditch.

To address one of the other arguments that have been put forth: the centers of lakes like Michigan and Huron are dangerously cold even in the summer, so summer vs winter is not a consideration for me except that there is boat traffic in the summer, so a better chance of being rescued before losing consciousness. But I assume that if I go down into the water in the middle of Lake Michigan I'm going to die, most likely. My thinking is that eventually the engine is going to quit. The more time I spend over open water, the likelier it will quit over open water. If only a tiny fraction of my flying time is spent over open water, the chances that it will quit over open water are that much less. I was based for many years at a field where an engine failure on takeoff would likely be fatal (urban obstacles, not water) and it did not bother me because the exposure time per flight was only a minute or so, and the total exposure time remained a tiny fraction of my total flying time. But I did not do a lot of pattern work there.

Today I am based in a state where in many parts of the area, good places to put down in case of emergency are few and far between. I am much less comfortable with that, though I still do it. (Of course, an off-field landing even in thick forest is more likely survivable than a ditching in cold water.)

The bottom line is that my comfort level is inversely proportional to the fraction of my flying time spent over inhospitable terrain or open water. Like all risks in aviation, the risk of dying due to an unsurvivable ditching is just another risk to be managed.
 
I said yes, but I do have a qualifier. I would go beyond glide distance but would like to limit that time. I would feel comfortable for up to about 30 minutes, but really not beyond that.
 
azure said:
But I assume that if I go down into the water in the middle of Lake Michigan I'm going to die, most likely.
Click to expand...
At least you don't assume some stranger is obliged to hunt for you and save your butt. IMO, you can assume you're going to die if you can't make it back to the shoreline, winter or summer, in any of the Great Lakes including Lake St Clair.
 
I've never had an engine failure anywhere and I did do it a bit, Gulf of Alaska at 400'. Down the inland passage. Lake Michigan crossing, but that was around Beaver island. Small chance of losing an engine, but if I did, BIG consequences. Glad it didnt quit!
 
I don't like to do it unless I'm within gliding range of a shoreline.
 
Fearless Tower said:
What's the water temp? I suspect that I'd be fine with doing it in the summertime, but would generally avoid crossing the Lakes in a single in the winter.
Click to expand...

Check the temperature before you go. Lake Superior is in the 40*'s in the summer. That will incapacitate you in short order...

-Skip
 
Been over Lakes Michigan and Erie many times in a R182. As long as the Lycoming keeps purring, no fear. I figure that when my time comes I'll just accept it. At least cold water death would be fairly quick.
 
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