Little planes over big water… would you do it?

Would you fly a single engine plane beyond gliding distance over open water?

  • Yes

    Votes: 75 84.3%

  • No

    Votes: 14 15.7%
  • Total voters
    89
RE the issue of very cold water, would carrying a life raft onboard mitigate that? Assuming it fits somewhere and you could get it out of the airplane after ditching..
 
fiveoboy01 said:
RE the issue of very cold water, would carrying a life raft onboard mitigate that? Assuming it fits somewhere and you could get it out of the airplane after ditching..
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My friend's dad (and 5 others) survived after a helicopter crash in the middle of Lake Michigan with a life jacket, not a life raft.
 
But they couldn't have been in the water long, correct?

I'm just wondering if the raft does anything to keep you out of the cold water so you die more slowly. I'd assume it does but I don't have much survival knowledge..
 
fiveoboy01 said:
But they couldn't have been in the water long, correct?

I'm just wondering if the raft does anything to keep you out of the cold water so you die more slowly. I'd assume it does but I don't have much survival knowledge..
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They were in the water almost an hour before their location was radioed to the coast guard by a plane that heard the mayday and got a visual on them in the water. Then however long it took the CG to get to them after that.

Raft would help a lot.
 
I had to google, but it looks like someone can die in an hour if the water temp is as warm as 50 degrees. Obviously it's going to vary.

I'm not sure if I'd cross Lake Michigan or not but after reading up on hypothermia for a few minutes, I don't think I would without a raft.

A friend said that if you don't trust the engine over water, you shouldn't trust it over land, which is a valid point I guess. I'm averse to freezing to death though:)
 
fiveoboy01 said:
I had to google, but it looks like someone can die in an hour if the water temp is as warm as 50 degrees. Obviously it's going to vary.

I'm not sure if I'd cross Lake Michigan or not but after reading up on hypothermia for a few minutes, I don't think I would without a raft.

A friend said that if you don't trust the engine over water, you shouldn't trust it over land, which is a valid point I guess. I'm averse to freezing to death though:)
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I'd rather freeze to death or drown than burn to death.
 
True, but if you crash hard enough to burn, you're probably already dead.
 
Hypothermia is no fun. Convulsions, hallucinations, violent vomiting... no control. It's the biggest concern for most survival situations.
 
ircphoenix said:
Nope. I live on the coast. If I'm not within gliding distance of land, I'm not happy. Had to fly around some clouds going north to SBA a few months ago. Put me a few miles off shore when I typically follow the 101 up. I was NOT happy, even though I was within gliding range of the coastline.

The ocean and I have an agreement. I stay the hell away from it and it leaves me alone. That's the deal.
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There is a much bigger risk there. Get far enough offshore, and you get into warning zones where the Navy practices bombardment. That could ruin your whole day.

People seem to be assuming, as is very common, that an emergency ditching done for the first time ever will result in no injuries, even in rough seas. And seas can be rough in good weather.
 
Victor139 from mass to Virginia ,mostly water,if your in a single the New York controllers will usually bring you in closer to the shore.
 
Coloradokevin said:
Okay, let me elaborate on my math here:
...According to the POH, the lowly little Cessna 152 can glide approximately 19 NM with an engine failure at 12,000 feet...
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Lake level isn't zero, not to mention any wind that is not directly blowing to/from your intended course will shorten your glide distance. Even if you give yourself 15 NM, you are still over "non gliding-to-safety" water longer than "gliding-to-safety" water.
 
tawood said:
Lake level isn't zero, not to mention any wind that is not directly blowing to/from your intended course will shorten your glide distance. Even if you give yourself 15 NM, you are still over "non gliding-to-safety" water longer than "gliding-to-safety" water.
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I wasn't going to point it out, but since you brought it up--at 12,000' there's probably a 20 kt headwind westbound. That works out to .67 miles per minute. Say he only loses 500' per minute (wishful thinking), that'll leave him about six miles to swim after splash-down.

dtuuri
 
azure said:
That's my feeling, too.
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That't just silly. Draw a line from peoria to mackinac island, it runs right across the middle of the lake and takes ~2:15 in my plane. Now deviate to the east over benton harbor instead of direct, that 2:15 becomes 2:25. To drive it would take all day.
 
I've crossed the Sea of Cortez about a dozen times in my Mooney between Los Mochis and La Paz. Never worried me much. My airplane is relatively new and I don't skimp on maintenance. I pack life vests and a raft. I'm talking to ATC on an IFR flight plan. Westbound I'm usually descending from FL200 to 8,000', so the crossing goes quickly. Eastbound I'm level at FL190 or FL210, so I have plenty of gliding distance.
 
The one I know of, the Cessna 150 flipped on landing in a pond. The pilot got out the broken front window and he barely made it to shore. Try swimming in shoes and clothes. Its exhausting.
 
JHW said:
That't just silly. Draw a line from peoria to mackinac island, it runs right across the middle of the lake and takes ~2:15 in my plane. Now deviate to the east over benton harbor instead of direct, that 2:15 becomes 2:25. To drive it would take all day.
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I'm thinking of crossing east to west from the middle of MI into WI (or the opposite direction), and I suspect Ed is too. Of course it makes little difference along the course you mentioned, but from where I used to live in southeast MI, many attractive destinations were a short hop across the water, much further if you insisted on going around.
 
tawood said:
Lake level isn't zero, not to mention any wind that is not directly blowing to/from your intended course will shorten your glide distance. Even if you give yourself 15 NM, you are still over "non gliding-to-safety" water longer than "gliding-to-safety" water.
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That's hardly the point here, as the original estimate I provided of 15 minutes spent beyond gliding distance was merely an off-the-cuff estimate. Yeah, the lake is a touch above sea level (maybe 600ft?), but the plane can easily climb above 12,000 feet as well. Given those two considerations, my estimate (for our purposes here) is hardly invalid. My point here was to highlight that you can choose to minimize your risk of a lake landing to 10-15 minutes of exposure. And, you can do that depending on where you cross, and which lake you're crossing (Ex: Erie has less commitment to open water than Michigan). If you fly lower your exposure to an open water landing increases, while climbing in altitude decreases that risk.

But, again, these were merely hasty estimates that you originally implied were way off... They are pretty darn close estimates, in reality, even if they weren't done with space launch levels of precision.

And, obviously winds were ignored in this discussion, because winds are different on any given flight. Remember that winds aloft can help you as easily as they can hurt you in this instance.

I'm certainly not saying you should do a lake crossing, or that anyone else should. But, I am arguing that it isn't necessarily any more hazardous than a lot of things we do in flying.
 
coloradobluesky said:
The one I know of, the Cessna 150 flipped on landing in a pond. The pilot got out the broken front window and he barely made it to shore. Try swimming in shoes and clothes. Its exhausting.
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That's the part that gets me about all these tough guy "safety" decisions form people who have obviously had no training whatsoever in water egress.

How many of the responders on this thread have tried to swim a 3-5 foot surf in street clothes? It's a whole lot harder than it sounds.

For the record, having a raft in the back of the plane is useless. First rule of egress is that if you aren't wearing it, it's gone.
 
MAKG1 said:
That's the part that gets me about all these tough guy "safety" decisions form people who have obviously had no training whatsoever in water egress.

How many of the responders on this thread have tried to swim a 3-5 foot surf in street clothes? It's a whole lot harder than it sounds.

For the record, having a raft in the back of the plane is useless. First rule of egress is that if you aren't wearing it, it's gone.
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Who the hell keeps a raft in the back? I'd think it'd be fairly common sense the raft has to be pre-positioned in the footwell of the passenger side in order to egress through its position or away from it within an arm's reach. No wearing it required though, as the multiple examples of water ditchings with successful life raft deployments have proven (Hawaii Cirrus CAPS deployment one such case caught on tape).

As to the rest of your points, agreed.
 
Once that pilot pulled the chute he was a passenger with time to prepare for the water. A normal airplane ditch will have you occupied right to the end and that may leave you dazed and upside down. Maybe you fly a Cirrus. Most of us don't.
 
Stewartb said:
Once that pilot pulled the chute he was a passenger with time to prepare for the water. A normal airplane ditch will have you occupied right to the end and that may leave you dazed and upside down. Maybe you fly a Cirrus. Most of us don't.
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I don't fly a Cirrus, but I don't believe a Cirrus is the only configuration that empowers you to deploy a raft. I have had formal water survival training, so my perception is my reality. To each their own.
 
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned turning your shirt or pants into a floatations device...
 
JHW said:
That't just silly. Draw a line from peoria to mackinac island, it runs right across the middle of the lake and takes ~2:15 in my plane. Now deviate to the east over benton harbor instead of direct, that 2:15 becomes 2:25. To drive it would take all day.
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And when I fly from 9D9 to MFI?

And what kinds of claptrap are you flying that you expect BOTH engines to quit? If that's the case, maybe not flying at all is the best decision.
 
MAKG1 said:
That's the part that gets me about all these tough guy "safety" decisions form people who have obviously had no training whatsoever in water egress.

How many of the responders on this thread have tried to swim a 3-5 foot surf in street clothes? It's a whole lot harder than it sounds.

For the record, having a raft in the back of the plane is useless. First rule of egress is that if you aren't wearing it, it's gone.
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That's why the pants come off. Rarely is there 3-5 foot surf on lake michigan. Provided the plane doesn't flip, they actually float for enough time to get stuff out. Back seat or front seat would be better. Someone put one down in Lake MIchigan a few years back (fuel exhaustion) and had enough time to get out, stand on the wing and make phone calls before it finally sunk.
 
EdFred said:
That's why the pants come off. Rarely is there 3-5 foot surf on lake michigan. Provided the plane doesn't flip, they actually float for enough time to get stuff out. Back seat or front seat would be better. Someone put one down in Lake MIchigan a few years back (fuel exhaustion) and had enough time to get out, stand on the wing and make phone calls before it finally sunk.
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Yes if you do a good job ditching you have a decent amount of time to get out. Plenty of people who have done that. Low wing, retractable gear, yes you're going to have time to get out onto the wing and decide which side to throw the raft if you had one. Of course if you're ditching a fixed gear high wing in high surf... all bets are off. I've heard a report of a pressurized plane that ditched and floated for an hour after ditching.
 
dtuuri said:
Let me get this straight, you're not "clucking" in your own right? ROTFLMAO!

dtuuri
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Try not to spend too much time rolling on the floor Mother…we all know what lines the bottom of chicken coops!

From your daft comment I can see that the distinction between assessing risk from an objective perspective versus a subjective one is challenging for you. So I’ll try to make this real simple. When YOU attempt to convince others that their risk/reward metrics should be more in line with yours…that’s a Mother Hen “clucking”. When I characterize risks in a factual manner, recognize that people have different risk tolerances, and note that as a result each of us makes our own decisions regarding what risks we’re willing to assume…that is NOT a Mother Hen “clucking”. That’s the way respectful adults deal with real-world grownup choices. Best of luck in the barnyard…
 
They make these inflatable life jackets that are really easy to wear now. Those are the ones to get. And wear them!
 
dtuuri said:
Gee, and to think I got censored for simply pointing out you're a Pinhead.

dtuuri
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You can always tell when someone employs flippant and deflective responses (that’s twice for you) instead of replying to the substance of the matter at hand that they are unable of making their case on the merits. If you believe that you are not in fact projecting your personal risk/reward metrics onto others here I would genuinely like you to provide a substantive response explaining how my assertion is mistaken. In the interim, perhaps you might clarify who has censored you!
 
Another classic POA discussion.

All you really need to know is when the engine quits would you rather be eaten by a bear or a fish.

Personally I prefer being fish food. Not sure why...but that's my opinion.

Yeah you might get lucky over land or sea....and actually survive. But don't count on it.
 
Have done it, would do it again.

Funny story though, I was on the tarmac waiting to depart, had ground/clearance tuned in on the radio. A lady was getting her IFR clearance and her routing had her over the water then back inland. She requested a route over the land, but didn't get it.

Got my clearance as well and departed.

On my way out I tune over to Tampa and she's still arguing with them about routing. She could NOT have been maybe a few miles off shore, but I remember her saying, "How much longer are you going to keep us out here, we have no life preservers, etc on board".

Just thought, geeze..it's not like you're in the middle of the arctic or something. Some people freak out when they get over even the smallest amount of water. If it is that big of a deal, just go VFR next time.
 
The people that do this for a living (ferry small planes across the North Atlantic) wear survival suits. Inflatable dry suits that will keep you floating and alive in freezing cold water for extended periods of time.
 
FlySince9 said:
why does the engine always sound rough as soon as I clear the beach, then? :D
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Very true. I had a bit of a headwind first time over the water. Was flying a fixed pitch prop and the gusts changed the RPM a bit,
that'll mess with your mind.
 
Norman said:
Been over Lakes Michigan and Erie many times in a R182. As long as the Lycoming keeps purring, no fear. I figure that when my time comes I'll just accept it. At least cold water death would be fairly quick.
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Around the World in two Light Sport, no mechanical issues.


ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7w8sBp5kX8

Cheers
 
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Crossing the great lakes out of glide distance makes little sense in a single engine. Traveling to the Bahamas or even Key West and flying direct is more of a calculated risk than taking a 15 minute shortcut over lake erie or lake michigan.
 
There are a few "high risk" moments in flight when a loss of power could result in a difficult landing. Usually that's right after takeoff over a congested area with limited landing options.

I consider crossing over COLD water without much boat traffic, beyond gliding distance of land to be a high risk. I fly with inflatable vests, but I do not have gumby suits. Ditching in cold water would be a death sentence for me, my wife and kid. We make yearly flights over the bay of Fundy to Nova Scotia. The first time I did it (before we had a kid) I shot straight across from Maine and did NOT like what I saw below. It's a giant cold water washing machine with little boat traffic. Now we fly up past St. John and cross the narrow section at a high altitude. Adds a few minutes but keeps me happy.
 
tawood said:
Ummm no! At least not in the aircraft that I've done it in.

I flew over Lake Michigan once, and once only, in my 20's, while in a C150. I flew to 10,500 feet, and started westbound over Holland, Michigan, heading towards Milwaukee, Wisconsin. I assumed, without doing the math, that at 10,500 feet I would be within gliding distance of shore for most of my flight. After 10 minutes heading west, I started to lose slight of land in all directions, and THEN I did the math: at 10,500 feet, the vast majority of your trip is not within gliding distance (over 50 NM of it, actually), when the lake is 80 NM across.

I flew for waaaaaaay longer than I was comfortable before seeing land, and I've never done that again.
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When I was in college I flew as a passenger in a small commercial multi engine turbo prop from Muskegon to O'Hare. I remember being out of site of land for much longer than I thought possible. So, yeah, I would think it would be uncomfortable in a small single.

I have been in Lake Michigan near the shore when it was warm and felt like bathwater. I have also been in Lake Michigan in July when the water near the shore was so cold it took your breath away as soon as it washed over your feet.
 
Mike5250 said:
Crossing the great lakes out of glide distance makes little sense in a single engine. Traveling to the Bahamas or even Key West and flying direct is more of a calculated risk than taking a 15 minute shortcut over lake erie or lake michigan.
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Try over an hour when you live in the middle of Michigan or Wisconsin and are going to the counterpart - and that's at 150kts GS.
 
I fly my Bo to the Bahamas at least twice a year. It is a risk but one I mitigate with vests, sea dye markers, emergency PLB, raft and most of all - good routine maintenance on my Bo!
 

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