Line up and wait / Position and Hold

[bugsiegel]

When I was training it was called Position and Hold.
As a student pilot I was flying into towered airports as part of my requirements.
Tower asked me to Position and hold. I told him I am a student pilot and student pilots were not supposed to position and hold. He shot back that had all other plans in sight that there was no danger and again told me to position and hold.
I felt I made it clear to him and so he was aware I was a student pilot. I did position onto the runway. I did keep the plane cocked so I could see if there was any approaching traffic.
What would you have done?

 

[ateamer]

Student pilots should not accept a Land And Hold Short clearance. Not the same as line up and wait.

 

[Matthew]

What would you have done?

Complied or said "unable".

 

[Everskyward]

When I was training it was called Position and Hold.

As a student pilot I was flying into towered airports as part of my requirements.

Tower asked me to Position and hold. I told him I am a student pilot and student pilots were not supposed to position and hold. He shot back that had all other plans in sight that there was no danger and again told me to position and hold.

I felt I made it clear to him and so he was aware I was a student pilot. I did position onto the runway. I did keep the plane cocked so I could see if there was any approaching traffic.

What would you have done?

It hasn't been called "position and hold" in a number of years. Was this a while ago? Students have been allowed to do this since I was a student in the dark ages, but you can refuse if you are not comfortable doing it. It would pay to get some instruction and become comfortable, however.

 

[Sac Arrow]

Is this a flight school requirement? I never recall having such a restriction when I was a student.

 

[frfly172]

No problem with line up and wait, the controller has yor back.

 

[Captain]

Ummmm, something is 'askew'.

 

[sourdough44]

You could of 'split the baby' and told him you were going to 'line up and wait'. He would know what you mean, nobody gets their undies bunched up.

 

[Timbeck2]

As was stated I think the OP has "line up and wait" confused with "land and hold short."

As a controller I hated when they switched to "line up and wait" instead of position and hold but now, it takes less syllables and is easier to say.

Controllers and pilots need to be "semper gumby."

 

[Kritchlow]

I hate all that line up and wait, and BR mist crap ICAO brought on. The heck with metars, give me the old SA report.

As a side note, many European countries have their medical due dates to the day vs the calendar month. What a fiasco that is.

 

[fiveoboy01]

I would have lined up and waited, unless I saw an aircraft on final that the tower didn't see.

Students are not supposed to accept a land-and-hold-short clearance, but I'm not aware of anything that says the same about a line-up-and-wait clearance. I did it all the time as a student.

 

[James331]

Whatever


Line up a wait sucka'

 

[Vance Breese]

I refuse line up and wait instruction with “unable”.
As far as I know it has never caused a problem.

 

[Speed]

I hate all that line up and wait, and BR mist crap ICAO brought on. The heck with metars, give me the old SA report.

As a side note, many European countries have their medical due dates to the day vs the calendar month. What a fiasco that is.

What I love over there is the line up on the runway behind landing traffic instructions.... And then they tell the guy behind you to line up behind you on the runway, and the landing guy is still on short final!

 

[Gucci Pilot]

I have absolutely no problem with Line Up & Wait. Yeah there is the risk of having a plane dropped on top of you, but as long as you pay attention on the radios, you're fine.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

If you make a point to use the entire runway, line up with numbers in front of you, the chance of getting hit even if a plane is landing is almost nil.

 

[Everskyward]

I didn't realize the OP was concerned with the actual procedure or the new terminology. I thought it was a question of a student being allowed to do it.

 

[Matthew]

I didn't realize the OP was concerned with the actual procedure or the new terminology. I thought it was a question of a student being allowed to do it.

I think, from previous posts, the OP is a PP and has been for a while. I think he might be relating something that happened during his training and is curious on how others would have handled the situation. The situation being "student pilot given position and hold instructions (the terminology used back then)".

 

[SkyDog58]

I refuse line up and wait instruction with “unable”.
As far as I know it has never caused a problem.

Why do you refuse it?

 

[rachelk.tailwinds]

Student pilots should not accept a Land And Hold Short clearance. Not the same as line up and wait.

I thought they could accept LAHSO them but didn't have to?

 

[Gucci Pilot]

I thought they could accept LAHSO them but didn't have to?

FAA Order 7110.118

Solo student pilots will not conduct LAHSO. Also if you identify yourself as a "student pilot" to the controller, they are not allowed to give you a LAHSO clearance.

 

[Sac Arrow]

I do not read confusion with line up and wait and LAHSO in the OP's post.

 

[Gucci Pilot]

I do not read confusion with line up and wait and LAHSO in the OP's post.

OP thinks Line Up and Wait for a student pilot is not allowed(it is). He stated that it is similar to a student accepting a LAHSO clearance(not allowed).

 

[Matthew]

OP thinks Line Up and Wait for a student pilot is not allowed(it is). He stated that it is similar to a student accepting a LAHSO clearance(not allowed).

I don't think the OP said anything about LAHSO operations, somebody else added that.

I think the confusion started when the OP said as a student pilot he couldn't accept a position and hold.

 

[Gucci Pilot]

I don't think the OP said anything about LAHSO operations, somebody else added that.

I think the confusion started when the OP said as a student pilot he couldn't accept a position and hold.

Ah true, it was the 2nd post.

 

[Vance Breese]

Why do you refuse it?

Our gyroplane has an electric pre-rotator to start the rotor turning. When I push the button after getting cleared for take-off my rotor is up to speed by the time i reach the centerline and I can begin my take off roll.
It I have the pre-rotator engaged I can’t hear the radio so I can’t pre-rotate while waiting for a takeoff clearance.
If I wait for clearance while on the runway with the rotor stopped there will be a delay while my blades get up to speed before I can take off that the tower may not expect.
The reason I mentioned it is because I feel “unable” is the quick answer for something I don’t want to do for any reason.
If the original poster thought that he shouldn’t be doing something; even if he is wrong; I feel unable is still the correct response. He can learn what is correct later with fewer distractions.

 

[ateamer]

I don't think the OP said anything about LAHSO operations, somebody else added that.

I think the confusion started when the OP said as a student pilot he couldn't accept a position and hold.

The OP was regarding a student accepting a line up and wait instruction. I don't think there is any FAA guidance on that instruction being given to, or accepted by, a student. There is guidance regarding LAHSO with regard to student pilots. Thus I perceived the OP mixing the two.

 

[Matthew]

The OP was regarding a student accepting a line up and wait instruction. I don't think there is any FAA guidance on that instruction being given to, or accepted by, a student. There is guidance regarding LAHSO with regard to student pilots. Thus I perceived the OP mixing the two.

Yeah, that makes sense to me, too. He did say "position and hold", but it hasn't been called that for a long time, so whatever he's getting at has been bugging him for a while.

 

[Sac Arrow]

I've never understood the rationale behind "line up and wait." It seems to imply that you should taxi out on to the runway and get behind the plane ready to take off.

 

[danhagan]

No problem with line up and wait, the controller has yor back.

Not always ....

I refuse line up and wait instruction with “unable”.
As far as I know it has never caused a problem.

When I was a student doing TNGs at the local Class C with my CFI (we fly in from another field). The controller put an AC in position and hold (was 7 years ago) and forgot. We were being worked on the parallel runway in right hand patterns. Inbound AC got confused with instruction and cut us off starting a small cascade (holding AC was forgotten). Commercial AC was cleared to land on the runway with the holding AC. Lots of stepped on chatter followed with controller yelling at holding AC. My CFI piped up that he was placed there minutes ago. After that exchange I decline them as well.

 

[midlifeflyer]

When I was training it was called Position and Hold.
As a student pilot I was flying into towered airports as part of my requirements.
Tower asked me to Position and hold. I told him I am a student pilot and student pilots were not supposed to position and hold (under old or new nomenclature). He shot back that had all other plans in sight that there was no danger and again told me to position and hold.
I felt I made it clear to him and so he was aware I was a student pilot. I did position onto the runway. I did keep the plane cocked so I could see if there was any approaching traffic.
What would you have done?

Back to the beginning...

There is noting I am aware of in any FAA materials that says student pilots are not supposed to position and hold at a towered airport.

If it were a personal minimum, a flight school rule or a CFI limitation on my endorsement, I guess I'd tell ATC I would prefer to wait at the hold line for a takeoff clearance.

The controller should respect that and not get his undies in a bunch.

 

[bugsiegel]

I stand corrected then.
I did think that a solo student was not able to Line up and wait ( back then 2007 it was called position and hold)

 

[Sac Arrow]

I stand corrected then.
I did think that a solo student was not able to Line up and wait ( back then 2007 it was called position and hold)

There is no regulatory reason why not. But your CFI or flight school may have possibly had that as a policy.

 

[kkoran]

I thought they could accept LAHSO them but didn't have to?

No one has to.

 

[flyingron]

I've never heard of an instructor telling a student to avoid line up and wait at a controlled field. Now at an uncontrolled field, I don't think anybody should be doing that.

And yep, it's happened to us. Margy was flying and we were cleared into position and hold at an intersection at Dulles. They forgot about us. They ended up telling the guy on final to go around (we told them we could get off the runway just as quick but they decided not too).

 

[Sundancer]

Geez, look at at final, listen to the radio, and if it's clear, get on out there! Or, if it feels hinky, or you have another ussue, then refuse. Just don't refuse for no good reason, and screw with the the controller's planning. . .

 

[dtuuri]

It (sic) I have the pre-rotator engaged I can’t hear the radio...

This seems unacceptable to me. Although you have a workaround as far as it goes, once you hit the button, you can't hear a, "Cancel takeoff!" instruction.

dtuuri

 

[RotorDude]

This seems unacceptable to me. Although you have a workaround as far as it goes, once you hit the button, you can't hear a, "Cancel takeoff!" instruction.

dtuuri

I agree, that does sound scary.

 

[Henning]

I thought they could accept LAHSO them but didn't have to?

You never 'have to' accept a LAHSO, and in fact, if you have any doubts about being able to comply, you must refuse. If you accept, succeeding is not optional.

 

[Timbeck2]

Geez, look at at final, listen to the radio, and if it's clear, get on out there! Or, if it feels hinky, or you have another ussue, then refuse. Just don't refuse for no good reason, and screw with the the controller's planning. . .

^ This, especially that last part. If someone told me that they'd rather hold short than line up and wait they move to the back of the line. The reasons you line up and wait are many such as waiting for an aircraft that just landed to clear the runway, get a vehicle off the runway, wake turbulence, etc.

Let's say that a small aircraft just landed, you are holding short and another aircraft is 5 mile final. I tell you to line up and wait because my plan is to get you on the runway and clear you for takeoff as soon as the other aircraft clears the runway and before the guy on final lands. You tell me you'd rather not...well you just screwed me, yourself and anyone else who is waiting behind you.