Likelihood of being cleared as filed through ORD Class B?

mjburian

mjburian

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I was playing around with Foreflight the other night, trying to figure out how to get to Sporty's to pick up a catalog ;-) without overflying Lake Michigan or skirting the ORD Class B to the west. I know the lakeshore route beneath the Class B shelf would work, but what if I was going IFR?

I filed (and Foreflight told me to expect) the following route at 7,000 feet:

KMWC LIIME PETTY V7 BVT V97 CVG WUSPU I69

Unfortunately, I've also filed directly over the top of ORD before and was told to expect that route... but was given a completely different clearance when it came time to take the flight. Just wondering if any of the Chicago-area controllers have a feeling for whether the route above would be likely or not.
 
If you are below 15,000, you can expect a routing over the lake or west around chicago's airspace. VFR, you can head under the bravo and pick up an IFR plan from GYY southeastward.
 
KELSI, guaranteed.

@MarkZ I'm coming in from GRR to Schaumburg. How's that routing going to end up?
 
Totally ignorant question: could you go over the top VFR?
 
Thanks Brad. I know the original post was about IFR clearance. Thanks for letting me interrupt.
 
MarkZ said:
If you are below 15,000, you can expect a routing over the lake or west around chicago's airspace. VFR, you can head under the bravo and pick up an IFR plan from GYY southeastward.
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That's what I assumed, but after being cleared into the bravo VFR last weekend (2 weekends ago?) on a beautiful Saturday afternoon, I wondered if the airspace was opening up a bit. I guess not.
 
EdFred said:
KELSI, guaranteed.
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That's what I've gotten in the past (and I'm told most others get the same). But I've also usually gotten that back as my expected route in Foreflight. When I didn't, and combined with the Class B clearance VFR recently, I wondered if maybe things had changed.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
Totally ignorant question: could you go over the top VFR?
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Definitely an option, unless you fly the plane I do... which *might* eventually get up to 10,500... but it'd take longer to wait out that climb than just fly around the airspace to the west. Plus, any eastbound course and it's pretty much not an option (at 11,500) for me.
 
mjburian said:
That's what I assumed, but after being cleared into the bravo VFR last weekend (2 weekends ago?) on a beautiful Saturday afternoon, I wondered if the airspace was opening up a bit. I guess not.
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It's easier to let a VFR go thru, especially if you are lucky enough to do so between rushes. Just ask.

IFR is a different story. No good way to get an overflight thru the airspace. Especially at 7,000.
 
MarkZ said:
It's easier to let a VFR go thru, especially if you are lucky enough to do so between rushes. Just ask.

IFR is a different story. No good way to get an overflight thru the airspace. Especially at 7,000.
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Got it. Thanks for the insight!
 
Yep, there is no route or altitude that will get thru traffic routed anywhere NEAR the Chicago class B. You'll either cross the lake up near MKE or you will be sent west to the KELSI intersection. I had this conversation with C90 one day when the frequency wasn't too busy:

27K: Is there any altitude I can request that will avoid having to go to KELSI?
C90: Standby, I'll check.
C90: No.
27K: OK, here's what we're going to do. I'm going to cancel IFR, climb up 500' (I was at 10,000 already) and you'll give me flight following direct to my destination.
C90: That will work. Cancellation received. Proceed on course.

Now what I usually do is file IFR to one of the reliever airports (like GYY coming form the SE) and just cancel and either go over the class B or up the lakeshore below it. Of course this is amusing when I get handed off to C90 on a busy day. After a long stream of instructions from the controller I get the chance to report in on the handoff:

27K: Chicago, Navion 5327K Cancel IFR, going up the lakeshore.
C90: 27K, Excellent!
 
Was based at Lake in The Hills (3CK) for 15 years up until recently. Made numerous flights to GRR.

Can guarantee that you will not get direct. ;)

What always happened to me is they would ask whether I wanted to go around the top or bottom. But since you're going to Schaumburg, they will most likely give you vectors around the bottom. Once you're far enough past MDW, you will probably give you direct.
 
donjohnston said:
Was based at Lake in The Hills (3CK) for 15 years up until recently. Made numerous flights to GRR.

Can guarantee that you will not get direct. ;)

What always happened to me is they would ask whether I wanted to go around the top or bottom. But since you're going to Schaumburg, they will most likely give you vectors around the bottom. Once you're far enough past MDW, you will probably give you direct.
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That I know considering where Schaumburg is in relation to ORD. Just wondering how far around. I'd be fine with PAPPI, and a descent to OBK that keeps me under the jets and then direct 06C.
 
EdFred said:
That I know considering where Schaumburg is in relation to ORD. Just wondering how far around. I'd be fine with PAPPI, and a descent to OBK that keeps me under the jets and then direct 06C.
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Over the lake you'll get either FIYER..OBK or V526..OBK. Plan on crossing FIYER or MUSKY at 4,000 and getting vectors north of PWK and west of ORD.
 
EdFred said:
That I know considering where Schaumburg is in relation to ORD. Just wondering how far around. I'd be fine with PAPPI, and a descent to OBK that keeps me under the jets and then direct 06C.
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It's a total crapshoot depending on how busy it is and what the winds are. From PAPPI to 06C, they will probably take you over OBK then west to the Fox River. Then due south with a turn to 06C once you get to I90. No way you'll get direct from OBK to 06C... Unless it's 3am.
 
Amusingly I'm heading up the lakeshore at 10,500 listening to C90. They're issuing climb restrictions to every eastbound departure out of MDW and then ORD to stop at 9000 because of traffic (me). They even call out most of the crossing traffic to me even though they're staying low. They missed one, however. I'm watching an MD-80 climbing in front of me (wasn't that close) and then I see him going down.

"I just got a TCAS RA."
"Oh, yeah, there's a Navion up there at 10,500"
"I had him in sight", I said.

Now tell me how having me tooling around on my own at 10,500 is somehow more operationally better than letting me cross the city at 4000 which would be below all these departures? Anyhow, I remember something about TCAS RA manoeuvres mandating an NTSB report, so I figure maybe in the interest of safety they'd want to hear about the other side of the incident, so I file one. What I didnt' know is that the guy who gets these knows us and sent Margy an email asking if she could possibly go to Oshkosh without scaring the pants off some airline pilot in the process.
 
At 4,000-11,000 feet, we run arrivals over the city, Lake Michigan, and if on east flow over the western suburbs.

At 3,000-4,000 feet, we run MDW arrivals south of the city. If on 22L, the arrivals go west over the lake until just south of Soldier Field, then turn final.

Above the Bravo, we climb departures.

@flyingron, Your NTSB friend sounds like a smart fellow.
 
I still don't understand why the dumping zone for ORD is over the city. You would think someone could come up with a much better way of arranging it so everyone not named SWA or UNITED doesn't get expelled to the wastelands if IFR
 
I tried explaining it before.

The "dump zone" is a term referring to the vectoring airspace an arrival controller uses to sequence and establish arrival aircraft onto the final approach course for the primary arrival runway(s).

On west flow the primary arrival runways are 28C, 27L, and 27R. Knowing that, the final approach courses for those runways extend out about 20 miles east of the Lake Michigan shoreline.
 
MarkZ said:
I tried explaining it before.

The "dump zone" is a term referring to the vectoring airspace an arrival controller uses to sequence and establish arrival aircraft onto the final approach course for the primary arrival runway(s).

On west flow the primary arrival runways are 28C, 27L, and 27R. Knowing that, the final approach courses for those runways extend out about 20 miles east of the Lake Michigan shoreline.
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Yes, but you've also said the airspace directly above ORD is no bueno for spam cans because the dump zone is over ORD, THEN you send them out to the east. If it was better organized by the powers that be (which probably isn't you), then ORD airspace *could* be used by people besides AAL, UAL, and SWA.
 
I've flown over directly over LAX and my understanding is that there are a couple of routes that will get you over the airport there very easily. I know there's a mini route over LAX that gets bugsmashers a transition over the top at a fairly low altitude too.

Does the Chicago B not have any provision like this?
 
mjburian said:
I hadn't seen that thread earlier, but was glad to read it tonight. Is there a schedule for facility tours or are they available pretty much any day/time?
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Typically Monday thru Friday during normal administrative hours.
 
With the runway configuration change is there any discussion you are aware of that might change the dump zones and corridors so ORD might at least have the option of allowing a VFR corridor?
 
EdFred said:
With the runway configuration change is there any discussion you are aware of that might change the dump zones and corridors so ORD might at least have the option of allowing a VFR corridor?
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No.
 
EdFred said:
With the runway configuration change is there any discussion you are aware of that might change the dump zones and corridors so ORD might at least have the option of allowing a VFR corridor?
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Doubt it will ever happen. I'm not even sure of the need. The VFR corridor is called go over the top or under the outer rings. The ORD class B is neither large or so obnoxiously placed that this isn't an effective strategy.

What they need is a reasonable IFR corridor.
 
There is a reason I posted the link to an old thread. There are half a dozen explanations how the airspace works, perhaps another look is in order @EdFred and @flyingron
 
I re-read it this morning. It's just bureuacracy. It *COULD* be changed. But no one will bother to do so. I also don't blame the controllers for the horrible use of airspace.
 
I read that thread (and I remember it having posted in it). Still nothing explains why a through IFR routing can't go within 30 miles of the class B edge at any altitude.
 
MarkZ said:
Typically Monday thru Friday during normal administrative hours.
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Are normal administrative hours somewhere in the 8am-5pm range? Because, if so, that pretty much just disqualified me from being able to come take a tour.
 
flyingron said:
I read that thread (and I remember it having posted in it). Still nothing explains why a through IFR routing can't go within 30 miles of the class B edge at any altitude.
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Doesn't T265 do that? Maximum allowable altitude of 8,000. Allows for ORD SHAIN arrivals to vector to 9R/10C at 9,000.

@mjburian unfortunately yes.
 
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Wouldn't add a half hour at all. And no need to hold any longer than now. No delays. No change in spacing needs. No major reroutes, no holding E-W dpeartures for 20 miles before turning. No one wants to go against the status quo. No one want to listen to anyone that says hey, there might be a better way. I get it. Garth fears change.

Though looking at it. They still f'ed up with the runway reconfiguration. You might have 5 E-W runways, but the ground flow for them is the causing problem for everything else.
 
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We make it work today using every tool and rule we have in our "book." Add an enroute corridor, and that dramatically changes how we work arrivals. Less room to vector -> more room needed enroute -> bigger delays getting in. 20 miles due east or west for departures? That's insanity. You tack on another 40 flying miles to every single departure for what purpose? So you, ONE aircraft, save - maybe - 20 miles? Not to mention: minimum 3 miles per departure regardless of route -> more time between departures (average additional one minute delay per departure) -> huge delays in the noon balloon (typically 90 departure hour).

Yes, the type of change you propose doesn't work. You make assumptions that just aren't true, and believe things that don't hold up to reality. But I don't blame you. You don't know how the airspace or the NAS works. Especially Chicago.

Visit the facility. Heck, visit ANY ATC facility.
 
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MarkZ said:
You've made apparent that there is an issue with lack of education on how the NAS works.

Visit the facility. Heck, visit ANY ATC facility.
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No. I know how it works. It's a gov't run bureaucracy. Any change takes decades to implement, and the only change that can be suggested is by someone who's been entrenched in the "we can't change anything" mindset for 30 years.

ATL moves more planes off the ground than ORD per runway because they laid things out like they should have rather than that cluster you have there.
 
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