Liabilities of the A/HB builders

Then maybe somebody who knows how to make those deals work might be handy to have around.

denverpilot said:
Maybe they're trying to preserve the Estate's cash instead of blowing it on an unknown. ;)
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denverpilot said:
Maybe they're trying to preserve the Estate's cash instead of blowing it on an unknown. ;)
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Just re read Tom's post. He says the guy died a couple of years ago. Maybe the estate has already been settled, and the heir hanged on to the aircraft and is now personal property. Still, I don't think the owner has anything to worry about provided nothing is misrepresented.
 
NoHeat said:
Just curious -- can an EAB project be owned by a corporation from the start, and can the corporation be listed as the builder...
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I don't think that is possible under the definition of E-AB -- education for the builder.
 
us AAirways said:
Could one have a business where they built the kits then sold the finished product?
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I talked to Epic at OSH, they mentioned that they have a couple of local serial builders who will gladly build the plane for you based on your specs.

(imnho that kind of setup is not how the home-built rules were intended and will eventually lead to the demise of the amateur built category)
 
weilke said:
I talked to Epic at OSH, they mentioned that they have a couple of local serial builders who will gladly build the plane for you based on your specs.

(imnho that kind of setup is not how the home-built rules were intended and will eventually lead to the demise of the amateur built category)
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Yep, the EAB was never intended to be mass produced by "specialty shops".

Again, more people trying to skirt around the rules will only produce.......more rules. :nonod:
 
us AAirways said:
Could one have a business where they built the kits then sold the finished product?
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That is what Van's RV does, build kits.

If you mean having a company that assembles the kits and sells the finished aircraft, that is a no, no. unless the aircraft can be certified under FAR part 21 or 23. (hard to do)

There are builder support centers that operate on the premiss of they help you do things you can't. They can not be considered professional builders or the project aircraft have problems proving they are amateur built.
 
Ron Levy said:
I don't think that is possible under the definition of E-AB -- education for the builder.
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I have seen some experimentals listed with a corporation or LLC as the builder. I didn't think this was possible and suspect that this was an error.
 
Ron Levy said:
I don't think that is possible under the definition of E-AB -- education for the builder.
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You, as the builder, can have me do anything you like, because I am not a professional aircraft builder.

the project is under your direct supervision, thus you are the builder.
 
Hiring a professional to build a kit changes things legally but raising the stakes. The professional builder has a responsibility that the home builder does not have.

Buy from a home builder and buyer beware. Have built by a professional and that is another matter.

weilke said:
I wonder whether that will hold up the first time an Epic built by a serial builder and loaded with aspiring investment bankers spikes in.

The lady whose husband got killed by the Lancair IV-P on a beach in Hilton Head sued everyone in sight under a product liability argument. That included Continental, Hartzell, Penn Yan and the builder of the plane. Now, in this particular case, the builder also happened to be the pilot of the plane, but given the product liability argument of the suit, there is no doubt in my mind that the original builder would have been part of it had the pilot acquired the plane rather than built it.

You as the purchaser or seller of a plane can execute any EAA provided paper you want, it won't restrict an injured third party from suing the original manufacturer.

The reason this hasn't been much of an issue is that most experimentals are relatively lightweight pieces that dont have much potential to harm a third party. Usually when they crash, all they cause is fire damage to a quarter acre of corn or soybeans. With any of the larger turbine powered aircraft like Epics and CompAirs, this will become an issue eventually.
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That arrangement is my only hope for ever owning an EAB that show me as the builder.

Tom-D said:
That is what Van's RV does, build kits.

If you mean having a company that assembles the kits and sells the finished aircraft, that is a no, no. unless the aircraft can be certified under FAR part 21 or 23. (hard to do)

There are builder support centers that operate on the premiss of they help you do things you can't. They can not be considered professional builders or the project aircraft have problems proving they are amateur built.
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Tony_Scarpelli said:
Hiring a professional to build a kit changes things legally but raising the stakes. The professional builder has a responsibility that the home builder does not have.

Buy from a home builder and buyer beware. Have built by a professional and that is another matter.
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Hiring a professional builder, the aircraft is no longer amateur built and can't be certified that way.

Just because a professional instrument panel builder is hired to supply an instrument panel, does not mean they are a professional aircraft builder.
 
RotorAndWing said:
OK, but one needs to be clear on that. Trying to say no one can win a lawsuit against a builder of an EAB is foolish at best. If someone wants to build an EAB then sell it they need to be aware that yes, they can be sued, and law suits are very expensive to defend. He may prevail but will be broke doing so.
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You seem to be pushing an agenda that has little to do with the thread.

Every US business has the same liability against anyone who wants to sue for any stupid reason.

The fact is that it is not expensive to defend against most law suits which will get dropped and not make it through the first day in court unless they are found to have a legal bases in fact for the suit. As a matter of fact if you bring a case without bases against someone you could be asked to pay his lawyers.

There is a great deal of legal illiteracy in society and these forums are no exception.
 
There seem to be two models to the 'professional build':

- you are the builder and hire hourly qualified labor to do much of the work. You still sign all the work logs and take responsibility for the final product.

- You buy the kit and hand it to a professional who acts as the builder, does the work and is listed as the manufacturer.

I dont think either model is what was intended with the 'amateur built' category.
 
Tom-D said:
Hiring a professional builder, the aircraft is no longer amateur built and can't be certified that way.
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It is done every day by unethical folks who don't mind signing a legal document claiming they built the thing.

I've said for a long time that the first high profile accident involving an (obviously) pro-built E-AB is going to cause a poop storm of problems.

The sad thing is that EAA has awarded more than a few awards to pro-built aircraft, which encourages more of the same. I'm not sure how you completely avoid that, but some examples have been blatantly obvious.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
You seem to be pushing an agenda that has little to do with the thread.
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No agenda, just stating facts.

Tony_Scarpelli said:
Every US business has the same liability against anyone who wants to sue for any stupid reason.
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We are talking about personal lawsuits, not a business.


Tony_Scarpelli said:
The fact is that it is not expensive to defend against most law suits which will get dropped and not make it through the first day in court unless they are found to have a legal bases in fact for the suit.
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Really? How much is not expensive?

Tony_Scarpelli said:
As a matter of fact if you bring a case without bases against someone you could be asked to pay his lawyers.
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Really? So someone buys your homebuilt, crashes and the findings are you deviated from the builders plans, or that you routinely flew "dog fights" and blew through Vne several times and structurally weakened the airframe.

For the discussion in this thread we are talking about a lawsuit with basis.

Tony_Scarpelli said:
There is a great deal of legal illiteracy in society and these forums are no exception.
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As you have demonstrated.
 
weilke said:
I have seen some experimentals listed with a corporation or LLC as the builder. I didn't think this was possible and suspect that this was an error.
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I checked the Dec 2012 FAA database, and found 195 homebuilts with an LLC listed as the manufacturer, and 71 with a corporation. The corporation ones had a relatively large percent where the names were that of the kit manufacturers. The LLCs were all over the map ("Lucky Me LLC" "F Cubed LLC", etc.).

Ron Wanttaja
 
weilke said:
There seem to be two models to the 'professional build':

- you are the builder and hire hourly qualified labor to do much of the work. You still sign all the work logs and take responsibility for the final product.

- You buy the kit and hand it to a professional who acts as the builder, does the work and is listed as the manufacturer.

I dont think either model is what was intended with the 'amateur built' category.
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kyleb said:
It is done every day by unethical folks who don't mind signing a legal document claiming they built the thing.

I've said for a long time that the first high profile accident involving an (obviously) pro-built E-AB is going to cause a poop storm of problems.

The sad thing is that EAA has awarded more than a few awards to pro-built aircraft, which encourages more of the same. I'm not sure how you completely avoid that, but some examples have been blatantly obvious.
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Exactly. While I was at the FAA this was a major contention. People hate regulations but it's the ones always looking for a new way to "bet the rules" that causes more rules to be imposed.
 
wanttaja said:
I checked the Dec 2012 FAA database, and found 195 homebuilts with an LLC listed as the manufacturer, and 71 with a corporation. The corporation ones had a relatively large percent where the names were that of the kit manufacturers. The LLCs were all over the map ("Lucky Me LLC" "F Cubed LLC", etc.).

Ron Wanttaja
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Mh, interesting. Either the FAA allows this, or they are a really sloppy ;-)

So if I was a serial builder, I would set up Delaware serial llcs and have each plane built by a separate entity. Now, given that my name would still be all over the logs, I doubt that this would do much to shield me from liability, but heck, the Delaware corporations commission would make a killing on the fees :D .
 
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N801BH said:
...You might be able to BS your way through the cert process and maybe even get the Repairmens Cert for it too...If you are caught..... You are TOAST...
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How are you toast? As long as both you and the guy who did the bulk of the work are both amateurs, it can be legally registered EAB. Either of you is eligible for the Repairman's Certificate. There's no requirement that the applicant for Repairman demonstrate having done a majority of the 51%.
 
When this thread started I thought the subject had been discussed on one of the forums some time ago with the same answer. Legal, but somewhat unusual and with the usual "documents in support" as required for other registrations.

weilke said:
Mh, interesting. Either the FAA allows this, or they are a really sloppy ;-)
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Tony_Scarpelli said:
Hiring a professional to build a kit changes things legally but raising the stakes. The professional builder has a responsibility that the home builder does not have.
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If the professional builder cannot legally admit he built the airplane, he's not exactly taking responsibility for his actions. If the pilot survives the accident, how does he sue the builder when he signed an oath claiming to have built the airplane himself "for education and recreation"? To quote Star Trek, "How do you get a permit to do a damned illegal thing?"

Ron Wanttaja
 
RotorAndWing said:
Are we talking Certificate of Airworthiness or Registration?
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I have seen entities listed as the builder. That is what I found curious as I thought you had to be a natural person to qualify as a builder for an EAB.
 
weilke said:
Mh, interesting. Either the FAA allows this, or they are a really sloppy ;-)
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Just for S&Gs, here's the list. I'll follow it with the ones with a corporate name as the manufacturer.
AMIGO AIR ENTERPRISES LLC
LIGHTNING STRIKE LEASING LLC
R & R AVIATION LLC
WINGS ALOFT LLC
GUTH AVIA & CONSTRUCTION LLC
GREAT LAKES LIGHT PLANES LLC P
OFF ROAD FREEDOM LLC
AERO PARTNERS ONE LLC
SAAMCO LLC
DAIRY HEALTH MGT CONSULTS LLC
WILCOX BILL/KEYSTONE ENG LLC
LUCKY ME LLC
NORTHLAND AVIATION LLC
BR LEGEND LLC
AIRCRAFT BUILDERS ASSOC LLC
HOUSE AVIATION LLC
WINGS AWAY LLC
RED SKY LLC
WINTER MUTE TAIL WHEEL LLC
NEW WORLD AVIATION LLC
CARBON MACHINE LLC
CLOUD DANCER LLC
WINGTIP TO WINGTIP LLC
GLENDALE FLYERS LLC/KENNEDY S
WMS LLC
DAKOTA COLUMBIA RENTALS LLC
WINGTIP TO WINGTIP LLC
BLUE SKY INDUSTRIES LLC
LEGACY GRP ENT LLC/MALACH J
GYROFLYERS LLC
ISLAND AIRCRAFT BUILDERS LLC
F CUBED LLC
ROCKY MOUNTAIN KITPLANES LLC
ROCKY MOUNTAIN KITPLANES LLC
ROCKY MOUNTAIN KITPLANES LLC
RV-8 ALLIANCE LLC
EPIC AIR LLC
SEAREY TECH LLC
GGG LLC
B & M MANUFACTURING LLC
BIGGIN HILL MANAGEMENT LLC
CARTERCOPTERS LLC
HOLBROOK AVIATION LLC
DOUBLERED LLC
CLOPTON AERO LLC
X EIGHT LLC
ROBB AVIATION LLC
THISLDU PLANE LLC
WILD THING AERONAUTICS LLC
AIRBORNE ATTITUDE LLC
TOMPKINS LANDING LLC
AIRSHIP LLC
TURBINE CUBS OF WYOMING LLC
TURBINE CUBS OF WYOMING LLC
RICE AIR LLC
N723CT LLC
CAPSTONE AVIATION LLC
MMB SERVICES LLC
900RB LLC
SEA & AIR SALES LLC
PATEY M/VISION PLANE LLC
CLEAR LIGHT LLC
WILLIAMSBURG ZODIAC FLYERS LLC
JBORSM LLC
HIGH TIMES ADVENTURE CO LLC
PERSONAL ROTORCRAFT LLC
JRSR VENTURE LLC
BILL ELLIOTT RACING TEAM LLC
MONI 349T LLC
WIN-LYNN SERIES LLC
RV AVIATION CT LLC
TOP HATZ LLC
FREEDOM AIR LLC
TEAM AVIATION LLC/BADOUD WA
EAGLE R&D LLC
SPORT AVIATORS LLC
SECOND CHANCE AIR LLC
MIKE BRAVO AVIATION LLC
EYE SEE EXPRESS LLC
REALMARK OVATION RV10 LLC
ROOFMASTERS LLC
B&B AVIATION LLC
NUNN BTR LLC
PARADISE LANDINGS LLC
SIERRA PAPPA LLC
ABADIE C/BUTTERFLY LLC
MIAMI ADVENTURE TOURS LLC
TULIP AIRCRAFT LLC
EAGLE RESEARCH & DEVLPMNT LLC
AIRCRAFT BUILDERS ASSOC LLC
SAVAGE AIR LLC
AVIATION PARTNERS LLC
FOXAIR LLC
GFS AIR LLC
SPORT PLANE DYNAMICS LLC
YID AIR LLC
CENTRAL AMERICA CONSULTANTSLLC
BELLE AIR AIR LLC
ICARUS ENTERPRISES LLC
HORIZON FLIGHT SOLUTIONS LLC
YING YANG AVIATION LLC
B & D VENTURES LLC
CROSS COUNTRY AVIATORS LLC
AIR EPIC 600BD LLC
UBU TECHNOLOGY LLC
SPORTSMAN AVIATION LLC
HORDER AVIATION LLC
MOOSE AIR LLC
AEROBATICA ADVENTURES LLC
RAF HOLDINGS LLC
RAB AVIATION LLC
ER2 LLC
VICTOR 5 LLC
REMONOV AIR LLC
REALSTAFF ROCKET LLC
SOUTH CEN OZARKS FLG GROUP LLC
AIRCOVE LLC
N850DV LLC
STEPHEN HACKER COMPANY LLC
LINDSAY ASSETS LLC
HERIN AVIATION LLC
WRIGHT WAY AVIATION LLC
AMARILLO FLYERS LLC
JOE A UNDERWOOD LLC
213TZ LLC
ALFHEIM III LLC
G L FRAZIER LLC
ARGOS MARINE LLC
RHEA AIR LLC
FLIGHT OF FOUR LLC
N299BB LLC
COMP 7SLX LLC
SNK PROPERTIES LLC
PLANE DRIVEN LLC
EXCEL AERO LLC
CHAZ AIR CAM LLC
ZENITH 750 LLC
AZFLYER LLC
FALCON VIII LLC
SCION AVIATION LLC
WESTERN STATES HOLDINGS LLC
SURI SRP LLC
WRIGHT SPORTSMAN LLC
ACRONUT AEROSPORTS LLC
LIMA ZOO LLC
RIA AIR LLC
DOUBLE EAGLE FLYERS LLC
ONYXLIGHT AVIATION LLC
DEXTER MANAGEMENT LLC
WILDERNESS FLYER LLC
N299SB LLC
ALASKAN AIR ADVENTURES LLC
COLUMBIA AIRCRAFT MIDWEST LLC
RISK ASSUMPTION LEASING LLC
DARWIN 022 LLC
STRAIGHT AVIATION LLC
U-FLY-IT LIGHT SPORT ACFT LLC
TYSON-VALDEZ LLC
SKYS OPEN SPORT AVIATION LLC
DAVISON MACKEY LLC
D STOREY AVIATION LLC
N723CT LLC
EVOLUTION KNA LLC
MULTI-MISSION LLC
GO GYRO LLC
STOL QUEST FOUR LLC
MOONSHINE AVIATION LLC
EVOLUTION AERO LLC
ES LLC
SECOND TIME AROUND N603H LLC
ROSEBUD LLC
WHR SALES LLC
OUACHITA AERO LLC
MARDON LLC
JV AIR LLC
SOUTH BOUND PROPERTIES LLC
TTX AIR LLC
V-TWIN LLC
YIPPIE KI-YAY LLC
PURPLE HONKER AVIATION LLC
FIVEJX LLC
LORETO SUNSETS LLC
EGD HOLDINGS LLC
HAYES AERO LLC
ALTITUDE GROUP LLC
BR LEGEND LLC
LIGHTNING AVION EAB LLC
AVIATION PARTNERS LLC
DYNAMIC AEROSPORT LLC
HARMONICS AVIATION LLC
COOPER AVIATION LLC
VELOCITY AIR LLC
NEWFOUND ADVISORS LLC
AIRWOLF AIRCRAFT HOLDINGS LLC

Here's the ones built by corporations. I've eliminated some (but not all) duplicates:


MFR-Name
SOUTHERN AIRMOTIVE CORP.
ASTRO DEV CORP
HELICORPORATION
REVOLUTION HELICOPTER CORP INC
MCCANN ICARIUS/SCORPION
SHORT AND DIFFICULT CORP
QUAD CITY ULTRALIGHT CORP
POLYTRON CORPORATION
SKYSTAR AIRCRAFT CORP
U S TECHNOLOGY CORP
BLUE SKY CORP/SEDIVY THOMAS C
TRNKA CORP/GATOCO CORP
SPECTRUM AIRCRAFT CORP
MCCUMBER-NICKMAN-CORP
MY LILI CORP
P Z CORP
CO-Z DEVELOPMENT CORP
WARNER AEROCRAFT CORP
JASON AIRCRAFT CORP
KOGA CORPORATION
CO-Z DEVELOPMENT CORP
ALDERS CORP
JOY RIDE CORP
TURBIN POWER LEASIN CORP
SICES AERO CORP
EIGHT ALPHA CHARLIE CORP
AMERICAN LONGEVITY CORP
ANNSEC CORP
MOKULELE RESEARCH CORP
RECREATIONAL AIRCRAFT CORP
FUN FLIGHT INCORPORATED
AIR MAGIC CORPORATION
PYMA LAKE ACFT CORP
LOCKWOOD AIRCRAFT CORP
THE JEFFAIR CORP.
FLORIDA HELICOPTER CORP INC
SKYTRUCK AIRCRAFT CORPORATION
KAMSA AIRCORP INC
MACLEAN AERONAUTICS CORP
PENN ULTRALIGHT CORP
TRIDENT CORPORATION
CLYDE FLYING CORP.
MARFLITE CORP LTD
ELKAY CORP.
SOUTHERN EXPLOSIVES CORP
MITCHELL AIRCRAFT CORP
CONDOR AIRCRAFT CORP
GERING PAUL E/QUAD CITY CORP
MAXAIR AIRCRAFT CORP
SUBO CORP
QUAD CITY ULTRALIGHT ACFT CORP
SKYSTAR AIRCRAFT CORP
SKYKITS CORP
BERKSHIRE MFG. CORP.
FARRINGTON AIRCRAFT CORP
GRUMMAN AMERICAN AVN. CORP.
GRECO-BRUNO AIRCRAFT CORP
FRANKLIN MFG CORP
RECREATIONAL ACFT CORP

Ron Wanttaja
 
wabower said:
When this thread started I thought the subject had been discussed on one of the forums some time ago with the same answer. Legal, but somewhat unusual and with the usual "documents in support" as required for other registrations.
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I must have missed that discussion. I guess there may be some benefit to it. Set up an entity, build the thing with the entity as manufacturer, fold the entity.

The perfect crime ;) .
 
wanttaja said:
I checked the Dec 2012 FAA database, and found 195 homebuilts with an LLC listed as the manufacturer, and 71 with a corporation. The corporation ones had a relatively large percent where the names were that of the kit manufacturers. The LLCs were all over the map ("Lucky Me LLC" "F Cubed LLC", etc.).

Ron Wanttaja
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Interesting. Thank you for looking that up.

I just checked the form 8050-88 that is used to register an amateur-built aircraft, and it is clear that it allows the owner to be a corporation -- it specifically says that in the privacy statement that accompanies the form. As for the builder, it doesn't say. It just has a blank to fill in for "Name of Amateur / Non TC'd builder" and it doesn't say whether the named Amateur builder must be a person.
 
wabower said:
When this thread started I thought the subject had been discussed on one of the forums some time ago with the same answer. Legal, but somewhat unusual and with the usual "documents in support" as required for other registrations.
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actually this thread was to be about builder liability after the sale.

But as usual we wonder, and now it has become a Pizzing contest between the two usuals.
 
wanttaja said:
If the professional builder cannot legally admit he built the airplane, he's not exactly taking responsibility for his actions. If the pilot survives the accident, how does he sue the builder when he signed an oath claiming to have built the airplane himself "for education and recreation"? To quote Star Trek, "How do you get a permit to do a damned illegal thing?"

Ron Wanttaja
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God bless bones!
 
Are you thinking there's no logical link between the two issues that would/could be relevant to the discussion?

Tom-D said:
actually this thread was to be about builder liability after the sale.

But as usual we wonder, and now it has become a Pizzing contest between the two usuals.
Click to expand...
 
Getting back to the subject, I believe after the aircraft has an AWC and an N number the liability loop changes. after that the builder who registered the aircraft is known.

Prior to the registration and AWC issuance the builder is not positively known, their name is not on any official paper work in OKC. their name would only be on the purchase receipt, and that does not make them a builder, just a name in the chain of ownership.
 
Tom-D said:
Getting back to the subject, I believe after the aircraft has an AWC and an N number the liability loop changes. after that the builder who registered the aircraft is known.

Prior to the registration and AWC issuance the builder is not positively known, their name is not on any official paper work in OKC. their name would only be on the purchase receipt, and that does not make them a builder, just a name in the chain of ownership.
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What do you file with the FAA when you apply for a EAB COA ? Building logs ? Or do you just file a statement 'I have performed assembly and fabrication on 51% of the assemblies' ?
 
weilke said:
What do you file with the FAA when you apply for a EAB COA ? Building logs ? Or do you just file a statement 'I have performed assembly and fabrication on 51% of the assemblies' ?
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You sign a form.
 
I see no requirements that the builder must be a sir name.
 
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