Let's talk about the flare

[SixPapaCharlie]

I flew a 172 today for the first time in maybe ~2 years.

As a student, it was "When do I flare?" "where do I flare?" "How High do I flare?" "Is it before or after the round out?"
"Look at Brian. He has 27 pieces of flair and a great smile."

Ok so I have been flying the Cirrus and I don't execute any discernible "flare". I watch my speeds and with pretty good accuracy, can set it where I want it but it is pretty flat and there is no exciting maneuver at the end.

I took off today in the Cessna and in the back of my mind, I kept thinking "I know I have to land this thing and it is going to be a flare maneuver of some sort at the end if I want to live."

I reviewed my notes on the plane and hit my speeds and landed it like I land the Cirrus. Nothing special, and had a handful of really smooth landings where I wanted them.

As students, we stressed out about the flare but what is it exactly and why is it emphasized? Hit your speeds, manage your energy, and you can put the plane where you want w/o some specialized feature at the end.

Thoughts?

 

[ktup-flyer]

I don't really "flare". I think 747 when I think flare. I just kind of fly it down, and as long as I hit my numbers it's usually a greaser

 

[Seanaldinho]

Thats just part of being a comfortable, experienced pilot. You no longer have to think about it like you did as a student, you just kinda pull back a little bit when you get close to the runway and squeak squeak you're there.

 

[Mason]

Flare with flair.

Hit your speed, hold it off, hold it off, hold it off, and it will do all the rest on its own. Then let the nose down gently.

EDIT: Unless you are in a taildragger.

 

[RyanShort1]

As students, we stressed out about the flare but what is it exactly and why is it emphasized? Hit your speeds, manage your energy, and you can put the plane where you want w/o some specialized feature at the end.

Thoughts?

I think it's more about rookie CFI's and stressed out students.

 

[pikespeakmtnman]

That's what my CFI says. He doesn't want me to "flare", he just wants me to round out just above the runway and hold the nose off until the plane finally settles.

 

[Kiddo's Driver]

"Look at Brian. He has 27 pieces of flair and a great smile."

I see what you did there...

 

[James331]

This is the problem with flight training, we get low time folks taught by low time folks.

You DONT flare, you just bring the plane in at VREF, lock your target in your windshield, once you're a few feet above the runway change your sight picture to the infinity point way way down the runway and just try to hold the plane a couple inches off the runway as long as you can.

Works in everything from light 2 seaters up to turbines.

 

[JustinD]

when i was instructing and its still how i fly my plane till this day, the whole flare thing, i don't like the way it sounds. like you said it makes it sound as if suddenly at some point, something occurs and it works. The thing is flying is dynamic, so I don't think there is one point at which you just suddenly flare. It's more so what you and others have said, reduce the power slowly round it and just keep it going till it settles gently onto the ground. I found it much easier to teach it that way and the students grasped it a lot better than trying to figure out the magical point at which one suddenly "flares"

 

[Sgu2-22]

I'm only guessing but I'd say pilots who don't "flare" are flying 3 degree glide paths with power. Old school single engine pilots like myself fly our final approach power off at a much steeper descent angle. If we don't flare then we don't have a nose wheel or prop to play with afterward.

Dave

 

[James331]

I'm only guessing but I'd say pilots who don't "flare" are flying 3 degree glide paths with power. Old school single engine pilots like myself fly our final approach power off at a much steeper descent angle. If we don't flare then we don't have a nose wheel or prop to play with afterward.

Dave

Nope.

The method is a "flare" it's just learning it properly and realizing it's not a linear operation, not paint by numbers. The methods myself and other described here works flying a ILS in a turbine, works landing on a remote river in a confined area turning landing in a seaplane, doing power out abeam the numbers landings, etc


Also, real old school pilots don't fly nose wheels

 

[Harold Rutila]

The roundout is crucial to a successful flare. This is where any excess airspeed decays, allowing the nose to be pitched up without causing a ballooning effect during the flare.

Cirrus aircraft typically land much flatter than other common GA aircraft types. They have a more efficient composite wing, which makes the airplane more prone to ballooning due to gusts of wind, or miniscule amounts of excess energy during the roundout. Additionally, since the Cirrus' more efficient wing is also lower to the ground than the wings of high-wing aircraft while in the roundout, they will be less willing to flare than their high wing cousins; the effects of ground effect are stronger for low-wing aircraft than high-wing aircraft.

That said, there is absolutely no reason to land a Cessna 172 "flat." The biggest consequence besides excessive wear on the tires is nose gear shimmy, which becomes increasingly severe over time.

If the stall warning horn is not on during a landing in a Cessna 172, the landing is likely not being performed correctly. During the roundout, obtain a visual height cue by looking roughly 2/3rds down the runway. This will make it evident when the airplane is ready to settle to the surface. At this point, back pressure should be smoothly applied with the yoke. If the airplane climbs while you do this, you are applying back pressure too fast. Ideally, you should be able to bring the yoke all the way to your chest as the main tires touch the ground. You then slowly reduce back pressure to allow the nose gear to gently settle onto the ground.

 

[2Airtime2]

"Look at Brian. He has 27 pieces of flair and a great smile."

I see what you did there...

So that I may have more time and money to fly I'm going to stop going to work and stop paying my bills. I don't like much, either of those. Not quitting, just gunna stop going.


On to the flare/roundout since I'm now an expert with around 30 un-assisted landings in a row. I am being taught (if light winds) to come in pretty steep with full flaps and cut power from 1500rpm's to idle once the runway is made. I seem to like to squelch my rapid decent maybe 20'-30' agl just short of the numbers (just for an instant) then ever so slightly pitch back down til just a couple feet above the runway, establish that proper nose high attitude and hold off, hold off, hold off, skirt, skirt, then ease nose wheel down.

I guess, with that instantaneous level attitude manuever @ 20' agl, I'm just confirming that the plane will do as told when I pull back. Maybe as I get more experience I will trust it more and be able to make myself transition from that steep decent directly to the few feet part without that microsecond level off quirk.

I've seen video of one of my landings and that 20' agl thing is very subtle and most of my landings are pretty gentle. I'm getting some degree of stall horn volume on every landing. I'm happy with them for now.

 

[timwinters]

The roundout is crucial to a successful flare. This is where any excess airspeed decays, allowing the nose to be pitched up without causing a ballooning effect during the flare.

Cirrus aircraft typically land much flatter than other common GA aircraft types. They have a more efficient composite wing, which makes the airplane more prone to ballooning due to gusts of wind, or miniscule amounts of excess energy during the roundout. Additionally, since the Cirrus' more efficient wing is also lower to the ground than the wings of high-wing aircraft while in the roundout, they will be less willing to flare than their high wing cousins; the effects of ground effect are stronger for low-wing aircraft than high-wing aircraft.

That said, there is absolutely no reason to land a Cessna 172 "flat." The biggest consequence besides excessive wear on the tires is nose gear shimmy, which becomes increasingly severe over time.

If the stall warning horn is not on during a landing in a Cessna 172, the landing is likely not being performed correctly. During the roundout, obtain a visual height cue by looking roughly 2/3rds down the runway. This will make it evident when the airplane is ready to settle to the surface. At this point, back pressure should be smoothly applied with the yoke. If the airplane climbs while you do this, you are applying back pressure too fast. Ideally, you should be able to bring the yoke all the way to your chest as the main tires touch the ground. You then slowly reduce back pressure to allow the nose gear to gently settle onto the ground.

^^^THIS^^^

 

[eman1200]

If I don't round out I can't flare and if I don't flare i can't ballon and if I don't balloon I can't bounce and if I don't bounce I can't bend a prop or go around so yeah, I flare like a friggin BOSS. I just don't think about it much anymore like I did as a student. It's not 'step 1: round out, step 2: flare..' Now it's more like 'OOOHHHHH MY GOD WE'RE GOONNA FREAKINN DIIEEE SQUEAK...Oh, that wasn't so bad'

 

[GeorgeC]

Cirrus aircraft typically land much flatter than other common GA aircraft types. They have a more efficient composite wing, which makes the airplane more prone to ballooning due to gusts of wind, or miniscule amounts of excess energy during the roundout. Additionally, since the Cirrus' more efficient wing is also lower to the ground than the wings of high-wing aircraft while in the roundout, they will be less willing to flare than their high wing cousins; the effects of ground effect are stronger for low-wing aircraft than high-wing aircraft.

I've found that this applies to the LSAs I've flown as well. You have to be very patient during the roundout, hold it off, and bleed off energy; only then can you raise the nose without ballooning and touch down on the mains.

 

[FastEddieB]

That's what my CFI says. He doesn't want me to "flare", he just wants me to round out just above the runway and hold the nose off until the plane finally settles.

The bolded part IS the flare.

 

[Cajun_Flyer]

If the stall warning horn is not on during a landing in a Cessna 172, the landing is likely not being performed correctly.

Newbie question... but, what about in a Warrior II? I make pretty sweet landings these days... to the point that my instructor gives me major kudos for them. But I rarely hear the stall horn. Honestly, until this thread, I've never even given stall horn much thought during landings or knew they had any indication to a landing's quality. Can someone explain this to me a bit?

 

[FastEddieB]

Cirrus aircraft typically land much flatter than other common GA aircraft types.

No reason for that.

It may appear flatter from the cockpit, but if done right the landing attitude is quite conventional.

Here's a small screenshot of an achievable Cirrus landing attitude, if held off until at or near the stall speed of 60k:

 

[Cpt_Kirk]

"Sounds like a case of the Mondays. Heh heh."

 

[Cpt_Kirk]

If done right, Cirrus do land fairly nose-high. It's really the only airplane where I consistently get the stall horn upon touchdown with the stick back against the stop.

Terrible, I know.

 

[FastEddieB]

Newbie question... but, what about in a Warrior II? I make pretty sweet landings these days... to the point that my instructor gives me major kudos for them. But I rarely hear the stall horn. Honestly, until this thread, I've never even given stall horn much thought during landings or knew they had any indication to a landing's quality. Can someone explain this to me a bit?

If and when something goes wrong in a landing, excess energy is the enemy.

And that energy increases as the square of the increase in velocity. Hence, a small increase in speed can result in a disproportionate increase in energy.

So, all thing being equal, and conditions permitting, the safest landing is the slowest landing. It's the main reason planes have flaps.

The Private Pilot Practical Test Guide requires a student show the ability to land at or near the plane's stall speed, so all Private Pilots should have been held to that standard before being sent for their checkride.

Verbatim: "8. Touches down smoothly at approximate stalling speed (ASEL)".

Many Cirrus pilots call the stall warning horn the "ready-to-land" horn. The implication is that, conditions permitting, if you don't hear the horn it means you landed too fast.

 

[Cajun_Flyer]

If and when something goes wrong in a landing, excess energy is the enemy.

And that energy increases as the square of the increase in velocity. Hence, a small increase in speed can result in a disproportionate increase in energy.

So, all thing being equal, and conditions permitting, the safest landing is the slowest landing. It's the main reason planes have flaps.

The Private Pilot Practical Test Guide requires a student show the ability to land at or near the plane's stall speed, so all Private Pilots should have been held to that standard before being sent for their checkride.

Many Cirrus pilots call the stall warning horn the "ready-to-land" horn. The implication is that, conditions permitting, if you don't hear the horn it means you landed too fast.

Thank you for the explanation. This helps! I'm usually at or around 65 when I round out, then I just stop paying attention to my speed and just concentrate on "not landing" (keeping the nose up). My landings are very smooth... to the point I sometimes am not sure if I've even touched down, but I rarely hear the stall horn.

 

[FastEddieB]

Thank you for the explanation. This helps! I'm usually at or around 65 when I round out, then I just stop paying attention to my speed and just concentrate on "not landing" (keeping the nose up). My landings are very smooth... to the point I sometimes am not sure if I've even touched down, but I rarely hear the stall horn.

One other thing to consider is the position of the yoke on touchdown.

The slowest possible landing will be one where the yoke hits the rear stop just as the plane touches down - if it's not, the plane could have been held off a touch longer, and hence landed a tad slower.

It's just a goal, and an elusive one at that - even in my Sky Arrow I rarely get it just right, though I virtually always hear the stall horn at some point.

These two landings are fairly typical:

(Note: the GoPro makes the approaches seem much lower/flatter than they really are. And if that horn sounds familiar, it's a Cessna part sourced from a Cessna 150.)

BTW, I would put marks with White-Out on the yoke column and judge my student's landings by how many marks we saw on touchdown. Smooth landings are also nice, but I found it easier to have them nail slow first, then work on smooth. Law of Primacy and all that!

 

[Bill Watson]

Flare with flair.

Hit your speed, hold it off, hold it off, hold it off, and it will do all the rest on its own. Then let the nose down gently.

EDIT: Unless you are in a taildragger.

It's not much different in a taildragger but you do have to be more aware of whether you are doing a 2 pointer or 3 pointer.

I'm only guessing but I'd say pilots who don't "flare" are flying 3 degree glide paths with power. Old school single engine pilots like myself fly our final approach power off at a much steeper descent angle. If we don't flare then we don't have a nose wheel or prop to play with afterward.

I agree.

^^^THIS^^^

Yes, ^^^THAT^^^

Newbie question... but, what about in a Warrior II? I make pretty sweet landings these days... to the point that my instructor gives me major kudos for them. But I rarely hear the stall horn. Honestly, until this thread, I've never even given stall horn much thought during landings or knew they had any indication to a landing's quality. Can someone explain this to me a bit?

Sounds like you are doing it right.

I think you'll find that just before touching down, if you bring the yoke back to the stop with a single, smooth but brisk motion, you'll get the same smooth touchdown at a knot or 2 slower airspeed and with the stall horn blaring for the touchdown. Don't change it now but play with it later.

 

[Cajun_Flyer]

I think you'll find that just before touching down, if you bring the yoke back to the stop with a single, smooth but brisk motion, you'll get the same smooth touchdown at a knot or 2 slower airspeed and with the stall horn blaring for the touchdown. Don't change it now but play with it later.

It's funny... takeoffs used to be my favorite part of flying and landings were something I dreaded. Now I actually enjoy landing more than taking off. I really love the challenge of trying to get them just right. Although I just tried night landings for the first time and those were definitely less pretty. :/

Anyway, it sounds like I still have a bit to work on with mine, so I will definitely play with this down the line. Thanks for the tip!

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

I'm always so disappointed......when the plane finally impacts the runway.

 

[bullwinkle]

My CTSW approaches pretty steeply, even at just partial (15°) flaps. More so at 30° flaps.

I don't think so much about a "flare", I more just let it come down to the point I need to "arrest the descent. Once the descent is stopped a foot or two above the runway, it's just a matter of working the stick back and managing the sink until the mains touch.

I don't often get it perfectly right, but touchdown is right around stall speed, 42-45kt.

 

[alfadog]

My CTSW approaches pretty steeply, even at just partial (15°) flaps. More so at 30° flaps.

I don't think so much about a "flare", I more just let it come down to the point I need to "arrest the descent. Once the descent is stopped a foot or two above the runway, it's just a matter of working the stick back and managing the sink until the mains touch.

I don't often get it perfectly right, but touchdown is right around stall speed, 42-45kt.

Again, as already mentioned, that is the flare. More than that and you're going to balloon. The other option would be landing it flat, i.e. rolling it onto the runway soon after the round out with little attempt to hold it off. That is how large aircraft usually land, isn't it?

 

[FastEddieB]

Once the descent is stopped a foot or two above the runway(1), it's just a matter of working the stick back and managing the sink until the mains touch(2).

(1) is the roundout, (2) is the flare.

No need to get bogged down in terminology, since those are accepted terms and concepts.

 

[alfadog]

It makes me think of a taildragger wheel landing vs three point. In a three point landing we're in a full flare and landing very near full stall. In a wheel landing, we are smoothly rolling it onto the runway in a flat attitude at a speed considerably above stall. Could you do that with a tricycle gear? Sure. But you're carrying a lot of excess energy and creating excess wear / stress on the gear, especially the nose gear.

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

It's funny... takeoffs used to be my favorite part of flying and landings were something I dreaded. Now I actually enjoy landing more than taking off. I really love the challenge of trying to get them just right. Although I just tried night landings for the first time and those were definitely less pretty. :/

Anyway, it sounds like I still have a bit to work on with mine, so I will definitely play with this down the line. Thanks for the tip!

Same here. Short final is my favorite place too be in a plane.

 

[bullwinkle]

(1) is the roundout, (2) is the flare.

No need to get bogged down in terminology, since those are accepted terms and concepts.

Sure , I get it. My point was that I don't think of it that way, but instead of stopping the descent and then landing. In my airplane if I even think the word "flare" I'm probably going to balloon.

 

[mscard88]

It's funny... takeoffs used to be my favorite part of flying and landings were something I dreaded. Now I actually enjoy landing more than taking off.Although I just tried night landings for the first time and those were definitely less pretty. :/

Hi Cajun! Good to hear you're still at it! Night landings are a little more difficult but also fun and satisfying, just takes practice as most of your references compared to daytime are a bit more difficult to see. Agree if your landings are good and your CFI is happy with them you can play with the stall horn later.

 

[jordane93]

I just tell my students to pretend like we're doing a power off stall. And that is exactly what we do to land. We stall the airplane. I tell them that all the manuevers we do have practical applications and if they think of it that way, they won't really need to memorize the steps involved, it will just come naturally. The first landing lesson we do a lot of low approaches and go arounds. I also teach my students that the first option is a go around and your second is a landing. Go into every landing like you are going to go around.

 

[VanDy]

It makes me think of a taildragger wheel landing vs three point. In a three point landing we're in a full flare and landing very near full stall. In a wheel landing, we are smoothly rolling it onto the runway in a flat attitude at a speed considerably above stall. Could you do that with a tricycle gear? Sure. But you're carrying a lot of excess energy and creating excess wear / stress on the gear, especially the nose gear.

unless its an Ercoupe, then you can land it at cruise speed!

 

[Gucci Pilot]

"Sounds like a case of the Mondays. Heh heh."

Spot on! Made my day

I really can't describe the flare. I get taught how to land, I make it look the same my instructor, and after a few I kinda just get the feel for it and do it. Whether that is a 172, J-3, T-6 II, KC-10. All the same, I just "figure it out"

 

[Sgu2-22]

(1) is the roundout, (2) is the flare.

No need to get bogged down in terminology, since those are accepted terms and concepts.

The FAA's Airplane Flying Handbook uses the two terms interchangeably.The AFH really is the bible of aviation and describes perfectly how to roundout (flare). Most instructors will break the flare into two parts as you describe. The AFH does this also and calls the last part the touchdown. As the OP described, with experience, the flare becomes a continuous natural process, not broken into two parts.

I add a third part the called the "Save" , which happens when you get the stall warning and are still three feet above the pavement. Runway permitting add power and lower the nose slightly to fly it back down to where it should be. I don't think it's in the AFH but it prevents those embarrassing drop in landings.

Dave

 

[alfadog]

...

I add a third part the called the "Save" , which happens when you get the stall warning and are still three feet above the pavement. Runway permitting add power and lower the nose slightly to fly it back down to where it should be. I don't think it's in the AFH but it prevents those embarrassing drop in landings.

Dave

I'm sure we've all had a few of those! Here I am landing a 182 after not having flown the 182 for a while. I forgot what would happen if I pulled the power out just before touchdown. She dropped out from under me and I got the power back in quick.

 

[FastEddieB]

The FAA's Airplane Flying Handbook uses the two terms interchangeably.The AFH really is the bible of aviation and describes perfectly how to roundout (flare). Most instructors will break the flare into two parts as you describe.

Thanks.

I was pretty sure I was getting those two separate phases right from the AFH, but maybe it was elsewhere - Kirshner?

Not doubting you but let me check my sources and see where I came up with that distinction.

edited to add: it appears you are correct!

I like to be consistent with FAA publications, so I'll keep that in mind.

I did find this image via Google, which corresponds roughly to how I was taught and where the terminology comes from: