Let's double pattern altitude.

Challenged said:
I thought stall/spin typically occurred in the base to final turn? If you're doing that at 1800 feet instead of 800, would that not give you more time to react and recover? What's a safe altitude to recover from a stall/spin?
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Only about 10 % of total GA accidents are stall / spin. Out of those, the majority are during take off and manuevering flight. Raising the pattern altitude would be trying to solve for a problem that doesn't exist.
 
Challenged said:
I love to play devil's advocate sometimes. Here's one for you: Would doubling pattern altitude help prevent stall/spin accidents?
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It would not prevent the accidents, but it would give the time to pull the chute, with appropriate training etc. Note, however, that some - or even most - of these "pattern" accidents are not at the published TPA. The Cirrus in Houston was making a crosswind turn. N28GX was making a downwind turn. They would not be able to reach to the safety of the 2x TPA before making any turns. So I suspect the natural performance and airspace limits would be working against this practice.

What we really want are passenger drones. Or at least a full-authority FBW with envelope protection.
 
Challenged said:
I thought stall/spin typically occurred in the base to final turn? If you're doing that at 1800 feet instead of 800, would that not give you more time to react and recover? What's a safe altitude to recover from a stall/spin?
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That depends on your plane. Here's what mine is supposed to do when flown by someone who is ready for the spin. Read the offset, indented paragraphs. Doubling pattern height won't be enough.
 

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SkyDog58 said:
Yeah I agree, it is both a bit funny as well as sad that so many airline pilots have less basic flying skills than many non airline pilots.
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Not true. I have extensive experience doing both, and that's just an incorrect assessment.
What are your credentials on the subject?
 
SkyDog58 said:
Yeah I agree, it is both a bit funny as well as sad that so many airline pilots have less basic flying skills than many non airline pilots.
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Do the stats support that? Does GA have less accidents/hour flown than the airline industry? How about IFR and night time? Sounds more like small town hangar talk than a factual statement, but I'm willing to hear the other side.
 
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well it would be interesting to see if there would be a interesting to see how many flights use autopilot vs hand flying
 
Jay said:
well it would be interesting to see if there would be a interesting to see how many flights use autopilot vs hand flying
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Means very little. Obviously we don't hand fly four hours en route in rvsm airspace. Neither does a jump pilot.
That said, in every checkride we have to demonstrate a hand flown single engine ILS to minimums to keep our job.
Don't believe that's a requirement for a jump pilot.
 
Challenged said:
Thanks for the input so far...you guys are fun to poke sticks at. :)
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3557635-4716017433-troll.gif
 
Kritchlow said:
Means very little. Obviously we don't hand fly four hours en route in rvsm airspace. Neither does a jump pilot.
That said, in every checkride we have to demonstrate a hand flown single engine ILS to minimums to keep our job.
Don't believe that's a requirement for a jump pilot.
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Did a hand flown single engine VOR DME 22L into JFK tonight in the sim. That was fun...
 
ifly4fun said:
Eliminate all turns - Only fly straight. Just hope your destination is runway heading, or that you can airport hop until you find a runway pointing in the right direction.
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That's a helluvan idea! If all runways were big circles of pavement, allowing planes to land in any direction, this would work perfectly. We need to start a campaign. :cool:
 
Jay said:
well it would be interesting to see if there would be a interesting to see how many flights use autopilot vs hand flying
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Fact of the matter is they're apples and oranges, but it's all flying. Long haul distances and large complex aircraft make pilot relief modes a must. Those same long distances mean more flight hours with less exposure to the hazardous phases of landing/takeoff, so there's a proportional difference in phases of flight. Additionally, among the complex systems are flight control systems designed to "keep passengers safe." Which is where we find the genesis of "heavy pilots aren't REAL pilots." They're doing different tasks and are subject to unique (and GREATER) workloads, but are still flying in addition to managing/monitoring complex systems.

So I say we're all equally as good as the training and rigor we put into remaining proficient. Which means for the OP, we recognize hazard areas for approach turn stalls and manage appropriately- if overshoot arises, correct if possible, and if not? GO AROUND
 
zaitcev said:
It would not prevent the accidents, but it would give the time to pull the chute, with appropriate training etc. Note, however, that some - or even most - of these "pattern" accidents are not at the published TPA. The Cirrus in Houston was making a crosswind turn. N28GX was making a downwind turn. They would not be able to reach to the safety of the 2x TPA before making any turns. So I suspect the natural performance and airspace limits would be working against this practice.

What we really want are passenger drones. Or at least a full-authority FBW with envelope protection.
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With respect (unless you were being satirical?), what you might want are passenger drones or FBW with envelope protection. . .
 
Larger traffic pattern means more home owners get to complain about airplane noise.....
 
All landings should begin from a point 6000' above the runway numbers, and be conducted power off, for the following three reasons.

1. Less airplane noise to complain about.

2. All stall/spin accidents will be confined to airport property.

3. School kids can better visualize the double helix of our DNA by watching the landing pattern on a busy Saturday.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Yeah I agree, it is both a bit funny as well as sad that so many airline pilots have less basic flying skills than many non airline pilots.
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Yeah, as I thought with most airline haters. All talk with nothing to back it up.
 
Just diffrent. Bush pilots don't need FMS skills. Airline pilots don't need yank-and-bank so much. They both need their particular expertise, right?. . .
 
Sundancer said:
Just diffrent. Bush pilots don't need FMS skills. Airline pilots don't need yank-and-bank so much. They both need their particular expertise, right?. . .
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"Yank and bank" ??? Never heard of this as an official maneuver so perhaps you can enlighten me o exactly what it is. If you mean an airline pilot can't climb and turn at the same time than I'm sorry to say you are mistaken.
I'm afraid the thought that an airline pilot can't fly an airplane is just flat out bad information.
 
I was thinking about this today. Some guy in a 172, a couple of miles in front of me got cleared for downwind 8 miles out at 2400'agl doing 70kts. He held this altitude and airspeed all the way to the abeam position. I was cleared no.2 behind him and wound up extending the downwind. What a pain!

Then, to top it off, he did some kinda funky touch & go that had him clawing his way off the far end of the runway and a stupid slow speed. I was afraid he was going to stall it or hit the obstructions off the end of the runway. He did finally get safely up to altitude. But, holy crap!

More altitude in the pattern would just give guys like this more rope to hang himself!
 
Not an airline hater, except for the ridiculous TSA fiasco, but I haven't flown with an airline guy yet who could land a 185 on skis straight. I'm not saying you can't fly, just saying with few exceptions you have forgotten what rudders do and what rudder pedals are for.

But don't take offense, I have no doubt in my mind that I could not land that tuna boat you fly around.

PJ
 
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