LED lights for the plane

flyingcheesehead

flyingcheesehead

Touchdown! Greaser!
Joined
Feb 23, 2005
Messages
24,893
Location
UQACY, WI
Display Name
Display name:
iMooniac
Wondering if anyone has any recommendations, given the following... And I say it that way because I'm completely sold on the concept of LED lights, just wondering about the execution.

Short version: I want a PAR36 LED replacement landing light that's as bright as a 250-watt GE 4596, and a recognition light to replace the overpriced Whelen 70303's.

Long version: I may actually be able to strike a deal to keep the Mooney, with the addition of several partners, and expensive lights are starting to tick me off as it is - I may make some changes even if it does still get sold.

My lighting setup is like this:

2 GE 4596 taxi lights
2 GE 4596 landing lights
2 Whelen 70303 recognition lights
Plus standard navs, strobes, and beacon.

The 4596's are a PAR36 light similar to the GE 4509, except they're 250 watts as opposed to the more standard 4509's 100 watts. We've replaced the 4509's in the club 182, 182RG, and Archer with Whelen's PAR36 LED and are very happy with that. I'd do the taxi lights right away, but I'm not sure about the landing lights - Is there anyone who's got an LED replacement that's at least as bright as the 250-watt 4596?

Anyone know of an LED replacement for the 70303? I've blown two now in the last 1.5 years and they're $138 each for the light - Not to mention the design "feature" that in the 28V Mooneys, they're still a 12V light in series with a big fat resistor. Blech!
 
Whelen has a new series of LEDs, the Orions. Easier to install, use existing wiring (tail and wing position lights, the beacon, etc). 14 and 28v versions of almost everything.
 
We're happy with the Whelen LED landing lights, but I had no idea there was an incandescent 250W. If an LED version comes available that matches those on light output, I know another impending upgrade. :D
 
Can't help with the LED question. My solution was to go to HID - expensive but low power draw and bright, very bright. Would like to go to LED for the strobes, panel, etc.
 
Has the legality debate ever been settled on HIDs and LEDs?
 
timwinters said:
Has the legality debate ever been settled on HIDs and LEDs?
Click to expand...

The HIDs on the 'kota have an STC. Whelen LEDs only require a log entry since Whelen went to the trouble to get PMA supplement for particular aircraft.

Kent - it looks like Whelen has a PAR 46 LED for the Mooney. dunno if it'd work for you.
 
Clark1961 said:
Can't help with the LED question. My solution was to go to HID - expensive but low power draw and bright, very bright. Would like to go to LED for the strobes, panel, etc.
Click to expand...

Clark, whose did you go with? And if you don't mind my asking, how much was the kit cost and the installation cost? I'm looking at these again - XeVision has some in the $500 range. It's twice as expensive as LED, but the extra brightness might be worth it.

timwinters said:
Has the legality debate ever been settled on HIDs and LEDs?
Click to expand...

There's a debate? :dunno: On the HID's you get an STC or 337. The Whelen Parmetheus LED's I believe are installable as a direct replacement for the GE 4509 and probably other factory lights as well under PMA.

FastEddieB said:
250W!!!

I'm jealous.
Click to expand...

And I've got four of 'em! With the wingtip recognition lights on as well, this bird looks quite impressive coming down final. :D
 
Clark1961 said:
Kent - it looks like Whelen has a PAR 46 LED for the Mooney. dunno if it'd work for you.
Click to expand...

I've got four PAR36 lights in the wings - The earlier Mooneys used a single PAR46 in the cowl.

I know I can put LED's in it, I'm just not convinced that the light output of the LED's will be equal to or greater than that of the 250W GE 4596 bulbs I have. They're definitely brighter than the 100W GE 4509's, but not by that much.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Clark, whose did you go with? And if you don't mind my asking, how much was the kit cost and the installation cost? I'm looking at these again - XeVision has some in the $500 range. It's twice as expensive as LED, but the extra brightness might be worth it.
Click to expand...

I bought'em from knots2u along with the wingtips so it was 1 AMU for the pair. In terms of brightness, they drown the LED in the nose and are well worth it at night. The installation included the wingtips and I think they just charged eight hours. The guys tend to give away too much time and I give them **** about it. They had to do a bit of extra legwork to get the wig-wag to work correctly but in the end everything came out great.
 
Last edited:
Clark1961 said:
I bought'em from knots2u along with the wingtips so it was 1 AMU for the pair. In terms of brightness, they drown the LED in the nose and are well worth it at night. The installation included the wingtips and I think they just charged eight hours. The guys tend to give away too much time and I give them **** about it. They had to do a bit of extra legwork to get the wig-wag to work correctly but in the end everything came out great.
Click to expand...

LoPresti wants $1999 for the pair.
Knots2U, $1130.
XeVision, $1100 for 50-watt and $998 for 35-watt. (The Knots2U is 35-watt.)
LED's can be had for about $450. Ugh!

LoPresti has an STC for the Mooney... However, since Mooney has been using the Knots2U lights since 2006, a field approval there should be easy. XeVision has copies of a 337 for an M20R for their lights as well.
 
There's one installed on the Tobago I fly - nice and bright - but doesn't trigger the panel light in the cockpit.
 
I have gone all LED on the ol'Cherokee,landing, beacon, position.:thumbsup:
Luv'em
 
flyingcheesehead said:
LoPresti has an STC for the Mooney... However, since Mooney has been using the Knots2U lights since 2006, a field approval there should be easy. XeVision has copies of a 337 for an M20R for their lights as well.
Click to expand...

Technically they're not supposed to provide a field approval for something that an STC already exists for.
 
Old Fart said:
There's one installed on the Tobago I fly - nice and bright - but doesn't trigger the panel light in the cockpit.
Click to expand...

I fly the Tampico.
We installed LED taxi and Landing light.

The annunciator panel lights do not light up as the LEDs to not draw enough current.

But the lights are so dang bright, you know they are on.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Technically they're not supposed to provide a field approval for something that an STC already exists for.
Click to expand...

Y'know... That's weird. They don't have an STC for the Mooney, according to the message they sent me. Same message they said that Mooney has used them since 2006.

Maybe this is in that weird gray area of certification - For example, when we bought the DA40, we discovered that while they used the KAP 140 autopilot as the factory autopilot until the GFC700, you supposedly can't get one retrofitted if the plane didn't come with one. :dunno:

What if it was added to the TC? It wouldn't be an *S*TC then...
 
If there is no STC, then I'd agree a field approval should be relatively simple for lights. Autopilots are a lot more complicated, so I can't blame them for not doing a field approval there.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I fly the Tampico.
We installed LED taxi and Landing light.

The annunciator panel lights do not light up as the LEDs to not draw enough current.

But the lights are so dang bright, you know they are on.
Click to expand...

I was just wondering if there was a mod to get the indicator back. Like you said though - pretty obvious that they're on :eek:
 
I just replaced the old GE halogen light mounted below the spinner on our 172M with a Whelen PAR-46 LED light. It is AWESOME! Much brighter, and a wider beam throw. Throw in increased reliability and decreased amp draw, and it is a no-brainer to justify the purchase price.
 
chartbundle said:
Aircraft Spruce sent me an email a while back about them stocking these now:

http://www.navstrobelighting.com/
Click to expand...

Interesting. Looks like they're meant to replace your nav lights, though, not act as a replacement for existing strobes. Cool idea though, no extra wiring - Flip the switch on once, you get regular nav lights - Flip it on, off, on again and you get strobing nav lights. Nifty!

I called Whelen yesterday while I was at the shop. While the regular strobe tubes cost $100 each (ugh), the Whelen rep said the LED ones are $900. Maybe if the partnership thing works out... But not now.

Groundpounder said:
I just replaced the old GE halogen light mounted below the spinner on our 172M with a Whelen PAR-46 LED light. It is AWESOME! Much brighter, and a wider beam throw. Throw in increased reliability and decreased amp draw, and it is a no-brainer to justify the purchase price.
Click to expand...

They're very nice, and it's a no-brainer to replace those GE 4509's. It's a bit harder to justify replacing the 250-watt 4596's though, because they're much brighter to begin with. But, I did let them talk me into replacing a burnt-out taxi light with the landing light version of the Parmetheus (clear, as opposed to diffuser lens). That'll give me some basis for comparing the two. I'm looking forward to doing that comparison!
 
I find that totally black surfaces seem to "suck up" the LED light more than the original halogen lamp light. However, anything else even slightly reflective is FAR more visible.

This means that maybe on a freshly asphalted taxiway with NO markings, the LED would lose, but even add a single stripe of paint or a reflector every so often at the edges and the LED gives the halogen a beat down it won't soon forget.

It's really rare to be on a totally black surface so the LED wins, hands down.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
denverpilot said:
I find that totally black surfaces seem to "suck up" the LED light more than the original halogen lamp light. However, anything else even slightly reflective is FAR more visible.

This means that maybe on a freshly asphalted taxiway with NO markings, the LED would lose, but even add a single stripe of paint or a reflector every so often at the edges and the LED gives the halogen a beat down it won't soon forget.

It's really rare to be on a totally black surface so the LED wins, hands down.
Click to expand...

Far more visible than the 100-watt 4509, yes.

I decided to go ahead and replace the bad taxi light with the Parmetheus LED from Whelen. For a taxi light, I figured I wouldn't mind if it's a little less bright than what I've got, plus the lower power draw is a big plus - With 500 watts worth of taxi lights, keeping the battery from discharging means needing to use the brakes every 30 seconds or so.

The jury's still out on whether it's brighter than the 250-watt lights or not. Here's some pictures I took:

First, with the hangar door closed, left wing:
attachment.php

(GE 4596 Halogen above, Whelen Parmetheus PLED2L below)
attachment.php


And now, both wings with the hangar door open - More obvious now, left wing LED, right wing halogen. While these are the taxi lights (landing lights are turned off), the LED is the landing-light version without the diffuser lens, since that's what they had in stock:

attachment.php


I think that if the other taxi light or either landing light goes before the plane is sold, I'll get another LED. If I end up keeping the plane in a partnership, I'd replace the other taxi light with an LED when it goes and do the Knots2U or XeVision HID's for the landing lights.
 

Attachments

  • photo 1.JPG
    photo 1.JPG
    384.6 KB · Views: 270
  • photo 2.JPG
    photo 2.JPG
    408.9 KB · Views: 269
  • photo 3.JPG
    photo 3.JPG
    581.5 KB · Views: 269
I went with LED replacement bulbs on the nav and tail light, HID wig-wags on the wingtips installed with a Sportsman cuff. One LED bulb in the old landing nachelle, and one old fashioned incandescent taxi light.

People say I look like a UFO coming in. :rockon:
 
Why are UFOs always depicted having a large array of lights? They would travel across a billion light years of space, get to earth and turn on all the lights to practice see and avoid? ATITPPA
 
RichNY said:
Why are UFOs always depicted having a large array of lights? They would travel across a billion light years of space, get to earth and turn on all the lights to practice see and avoid? ATITPPA
Click to expand...


:idea:.......:rofl:...:lol:
 
FastEddieB said:
250W!!!

I'm jealous.

Our little ROTAX's struggle with 100W - which is why I'm also looking to go to an LED landing light soon.
Click to expand...
I know of no LED landing light that can match the 4596 but the Prometheus comes close. OTOH, the 55W HIDS outshine the 4596 by about 100%.

When I had 4596 lamps in the wing they tended to melt the plastic lens covering if you left them on very long after landing.
 
gismo said:
I know of no LED landing light that can match the 4596 but the Prometheus comes close. OTOH, the 55W HIDS outshine the 4596 by about 100%.
Click to expand...

Lance,

What HIDs do you have? I wasn't aware of any 55W ones - LoPresti, Knots2U, and XeVision all have 35W ones and XeVision also has a 50W, but that's all I know of.

When I had 4596 lamps in the wing they tended to melt the plastic lens covering if you left them on very long after landing.
Click to expand...

Yeesh, really? I always turn off the recognition lights after landing because I know others have melted wingtip lenses with 'em. If I had to turn the 4596's off too, I'd be in the dark! They're mounted fairly far back from the lens in the Mooney though, so no problems with lenses yet. This might be a good reason to replace the other taxi light with an LED, though.
 
CT Arrow said:
Xevision has 75 watt HID lights as well. I have been very tempted to update the 35 watt wing tip to 75 watt. If so, I will have some 35 watt power supplies for sale.

www.xevision.com
Click to expand...

I've heard even the 50-watt XeVision lights are painfully bright at a pretty long range... I'd think 75-watt ones are something you'd want on a jet, not a piston!
 
These are such cool times for airplane lights.

I am going to be replacing my wingtip position and strobe lights with Whelen's new line (name escapes me), and there will be room in the big lens-covered area on the wing tips for Whelen's new rectangular recognition lights, which I'll set up to be either wig-wag or on solid. Nice stuff, minimal current draw, less weight and no electrical noise from a strobe power supply.

Win, win, win, win (for money....).
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I've heard even the 50-watt XeVision lights are painfully bright at a pretty long range... I'd think 75-watt ones are something you'd want on a jet, not a piston!
Click to expand...

The nose light is 50 watts and it is bright! I like turning on the switches and daylight appears in front of the plane. There have been deer and other critters on the runway. Would never have seen them without the HID lighting.
 
For all of you replacing your stock nav lamps with the drop in replacement LED's, be warned that NONE of them are approved for Type Certificated aircraft.

Here's the killer on the NavStrobes that are all the rage- These lamps are supposed to replace NAV lamps, BUT, and I quote from the manufacturer:

"When these lights are in strobe mode, do the red & green nav lights still illuminate between strobe flashes?
Per the supplier: No. There is no light output between light bursts.

Do these satisfy the anti-collision beacon requirement for night VFR?
Per the supplier: My strobe lights do not meet the requirements for anti-collision lights. They are only a replacement for the standard navigation or position lights, with the additional strobe feature for safety." **********************

So you no longer have nav lights when the strobes are on. That's a deal breaker, since nav lights are required for night flight, and they do NOT meet the requirements for strobe lights. So you've now lost your nav light function (intentionally to boot), which is a Part 91.205c, violation in addition to the Unapproved Parts that made your airplane Unairworthy the moment you installed them.

And on the other LED replacements for the 7512 wingtip lamps, those are not TSO'd lamps produced under a PMA. Because nav lights are required for night flight, they have a certification basis which is TSO C30c. In order to conform to the TSO, a manufacturer must apply for evaluation of his product, meet the standards, be granted a PMA to produce them, mark the parts with the TSO number, and be subject to continuing FAA surveillance of his Quality Control System. You can't just set up shop and make a lamp claiming that it meets a standard. These lamps are also NOT standard parts because there is NO standard for LED lamps. LED lamps use drivers that can emit RFI, unlike incandescent lamps. LED or HID lamps must be evaluated for RFI an approved on an individual basis because no standards yet exist for those special attributes.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top