LED lights for the plane

[jesse]

For all of you replacing your stock nav lamps with the drop in replacement LED's, be warned that NONE of them are approved for Type Certificated aircraft.

Here's the killer on the NavStrobes that are all the rage- These lamps are supposed to replace NAV lamps, BUT, and I quote from the manufacturer:

"When these lights are in strobe mode, do the red & green nav lights still illuminate between strobe flashes?
Per the supplier: No. There is no light output between light bursts.

Do these satisfy the anti-collision beacon requirement for night VFR?
Per the supplier: My strobe lights do not meet the requirements for anti-collision lights. They are only a replacement for the standard navigation or position lights, with the additional strobe feature for safety." **********************

So you no longer have nav lights when the strobes are on. That's a deal breaker, since nav lights are required for night flight, and they do NOT meet the requirements for strobe lights. So you've now lost your nav light function (intentionally to boot), which is a Part 91.205c, violation in addition to the Unapproved Parts that made your airplane Unairworthy the moment you installed them.

And on the other LED replacements for the 7512 wingtip lamps, those are not TSO'd lamps produced under a PMA. Because nav lights are required for night flight, they have a certification basis which is TSO C30c. In order to conform to the TSO, a manufacturer must apply for evaluation of his product, meet the standards, be granted a PMA to produce them, mark the parts with the TSO number, and be subject to continuing FAA surveillance of his Quality Control System. You can't just set up shop and make a lamp claiming that it meets a standard. These lamps are also NOT standard parts because there is NO standard for LED lamps. LED lamps use drivers that can emit RFI, unlike incandescent lamps. LED or HID lamps must be evaluated for RFI an approved on an individual basis because no standards yet exist for those special attributes.

How many owners do you suppose actually care? It's no secret that there are countless certified planes running around with non-pma'd lighting, which is often almost always an upgrade increasing safety. Kind of like speeding 2 mph over the limit. It's still speeding, yes, but unlikely to ever cause a problem for anyone and more likely to reduce problems.

 

[philiplane]

How many owners do you suppose actually care? It's no secret that there are countless certified planes running around with non-pma'd lighting, which is often almost always an upgrade increasing safety. Kind of like speeding 2 mph over the limit. It's still speeding, yes, but unlikely to ever cause a problem for anyone and more likely to reduce problems.

Well, that goes to the heart of our system. It's based on honor, where the FAA delegates airworthiness to pilots and mechanics. We're held to a higher standard and we're supposed to set the example, just like flight instructors do on the operations side. We're all supposed to uphold the rules without intervention. Once too many bad things happen, new regs come out to address that, and Big Brother gets bigger. Picking and choosing what rules to follow is one of the biggest contributors to the "links in the accident chain" concept.

AD's are the best example. Many, if not most of them, force people to do what they should have done anyway... maintain their planes.

There are plenty of bogus parts showing up. Chinese airspeed indicators and flight instruments for example. Hope you don't mind that the other guy coming at you in IMC is at your exact altitude because his equipment is junk. But it is reporting the correct altitude to ATC so no one will know until it's too late. I've fixed dozens of those cases as an avionics tech. The owners nearly crap themselves when you show them the error and how they could be at the wrong altitude without knowing it.

LED's and HID's can and do cause significant Electro Magnetic Interference which is why all approved lights have to demonstrate compliance with DO-160. Specialized shielding may be needed to eliminate interference with GPS, NAV, and communication frequencies. As an early adopter and developer of approved HID lighting I have plenty of data on how bad the effects can be. LED's also produce EMI to varying degrees.

As these planes age, if people start using substandard parts and the accident rate goes up as a result, don't cry when the FAA takes away mechanic's IA privileges and deploys their own inspectors to sign off annuals. Then, no one will fly.

 

[denverpilot]

Well, that goes to the heart of our system. It's based on honor, where the FAA delegates airworthiness to pilots and mechanics. We're held to a higher standard and we're supposed to set the example, just like flight instructors do on the operations side. We're all supposed to uphold the rules without intervention. Once too many bad things happen, new regs come out to address that, and Big Brother gets bigger. Picking and choosing what rules to follow is one of the biggest contributors to the "links in the accident chain" concept.



AD's are the best example. Many, if not most of them, force people to do what they should have done anyway... maintain their planes.



There are plenty of bogus parts showing up. Chinese airspeed indicators and flight instruments for example. Hope you don't mind that the other guy coming at you in IMC is at your exact altitude because his equipment is junk. But it is reporting the correct altitude to ATC so no one will know until it's too late. I've fixed dozens of those cases as an avionics tech. The owners nearly crap themselves when you show them the error and how they could be at the wrong altitude without knowing it.



LED's and HID's can and do cause significant Electro Magnetic Interference which is why all approved lights have to demonstrate compliance with DO-160. Specialized shielding may be needed to eliminate interference with GPS, NAV, and communication frequencies. As an early adopter and developer of approved HID lighting I have plenty of data on how bad the effects can be. LED's also produce EMI to varying degrees.



As these planes age, if people start using substandard parts and the accident rate goes up as a result, don't cry when the FAA takes away mechanic's IA privileges and deploys their own inspectors to sign off annuals. Then, no one will fly.

It's a freaking light bulb. It's not a camshaft.

And how many of those from FAA-approved manufacturers have sucked?

Making it into some kind of "you're setting the standard" issue is a bit much. Plug in light bulb. Works. Light. Fly airplane VFR. No noise in radio. Test complete.

 

[philiplane]

It's a freaking light bulb. It's not a camshaft.

And how many of those from FAA-approved manufacturers have sucked?

Making it into some kind of "you're setting the standard" issue is a bit much. Plug in light bulb. Works. Light. Fly airplane VFR. No noise in radio. Test complete.

So you are OK with the person who signs off the annual on the plane you trust your life to, to not adhering to any standards in your best interest?

Miss a radio call while IFR and have a pilot deviation as a result because your strobe lights blocked the call. No problem.
GPS is scrambled by EMI from your unapproved lights and you crash into a radio tower that you thought was two miles the other way. No problem.
Miss seeing another plane at night because his unapproved position lights have narrow beams and are all but invisible to you, and you have a mid air. No problem.

There are no unimportant parts on an airplane. If the parts weren't needed in the form that they are in, they wouldn't be on the plane to begin with. From the camshaft to the spar to the radios to the lights, all the regs governing parts and operations are written in blood. Anyone who thinks they are unimportant is a fool who is incapable of learning from history. Also known as Other People's Mistakes.

 

[CT Arrow]

Delete

 

[N801BH]

So you are OK with the person who signs off the annual on the plane you trust your life to, to not adhering to any standards in your best interest?

Miss a radio call while IFR and have a pilot deviation as a result because your strobe lights blocked the call. No problem.
GPS is scrambled by EMI from your unapproved lights and you crash into a radio tower that you thought was two miles the other way. No problem.
Miss seeing another plane at night because his unapproved position lights have narrow beams and are all but invisible to you, and you have a mid air. No problem.

There are no unimportant parts on an airplane. If the parts weren't needed in the form that they are in, they wouldn't be on the plane to begin with. From the camshaft to the spar to the radios to the lights, all the regs governing parts and operations are written in blood. Anyone who thinks they are unimportant is a fool who is incapable of learning from history. Also known as Other People's Mistakes.

Hmmm...

About every few months someone posts a thread about a "certain" FAA approved carb which is WELL known not to function properly, and yet, the FAA had not padlocked their front door... Are there rules you speak of really for our safety..

 

[philiplane]

Hmmm...

About every few months someone posts a thread about a "certain" FAA approved carb which is WELL known not to function properly, and yet, the FAA had not padlocked their front door... Are there rules you speak of really for our safety..

"Well known" to some people on a web forum may not translate into well known to the FAA. Did anyone actually fill out an M&D report? As a Director of Maintenance I have brought 15-20 cases of poor quality work to the FAA's attention via the M&D process and never once failed to get action. The Feds one complaint is that they are the last to know about problem parts, when they should be the first to know. You want to get a career bureaucrats's pulse racing, give him a document saying you got a POS part from a Repair Station. These types of things accelerate an inspector's career path upward and onward. It's one of the few areas where the FAA does very well because they have complete control over the offender's ability to stay in business.

 

[N801BH]

"Well known" to some people on a web forum may not translate into well known to the FAA. Did anyone actually fill out an M&D report? As a Director of Maintenance I have brought 15-20 cases of poor quality work to the FAA's attention via the M&D process and never once failed to get action. The Feds one complaint is that they are the last to know about problem parts, when they should be the first to know. You want to get a career bureaucrats's pulse racing, give him a document saying you got a POS part from a Repair Station. These types of things accelerate an inspector's career path upward and onward. It's one of the few areas where the FAA does very well because they have complete control over the offender's ability to stay in business.

I see you are NEW here.... Perhaps you should do a little research on that topic.......

 

[denverpilot]

So you are OK with the person who signs off the annual on the plane you trust your life to, to not adhering to any standards in your best interest?



Miss a radio call while IFR and have a pilot deviation as a result because your strobe lights blocked the call. No problem.

GPS is scrambled by EMI from your unapproved lights and you crash into a radio tower that you thought was two miles the other way. No problem.

Miss seeing another plane at night because his unapproved position lights have narrow beams and are all but invisible to you, and you have a mid air. No problem.



There are no unimportant parts on an airplane. If the parts weren't needed in the form that they are in, they wouldn't be on the plane to begin with. From the camshaft to the spar to the radios to the lights, all the regs governing parts and operations are written in blood. Anyone who thinks they are unimportant is a fool who is incapable of learning from history. Also known as Other People's Mistakes.

Really awful list of stupid crap...

IFR strobe thing: Already said to go test them VFR. You're a dip**** if you don't, even certified "safe" stuff. Better shoot multiple approaches with new gear on board in VFR conditions, too.

GPS: Never happen. It'd fail outright and if all you have is GPS for navigation and can't stay on course within two miles you're a dip****.

Midair: The vast majority of newer lighting systems are far more visible than old ones. Please send an example of one with "narrow beams".

A poorly maintained Certified aircraft will kill you fast. But it ain't gonna be LED lights that cause it.

 

[awquick]

The Whelen LED PLED462L landing light is PMA'd and includes my airplane in the eligible model list.....does this mean I can swap out the GE for the Whelen and make a logbook entry as a non-A&P owner?

 

[JSumeracki]

The FAA has NEVER made a mistake? Manufacturers of aircraft parts and upgrades have NEVER made a mistake? PMA's are always justified? Or just an excuse for manufacturers to waste money to make some paper pushers happy? You trust the FAA with your life? You trust the government with your life?

Now ask yourself, assuming common sense prevails and a simple bulb replacement far exceeds all expectations in every way, does not induce noise in any circuit and in no way interferes with aircraft operation, while reducing current flow, heat dissapation and thus reducing load on the alternator (and increasing battery life and amount of devices you can run on your backup alternator in full IMC), why wouldn't you?

Enjoy waiting until 2024 for your PMA'd lights. I'm taking advantage of new technology before I retire or sell my plane.

 

[garyb]

I'm not in the market tight now but have a question: I notice that with flashlights (and headlights), a LED light is indeed brighter, and I assume can be seen from a greater distance, but seems to lack the penetrating power of a regular flashlight or headlight. Is this the case with the landing/taxi lights as well? It would appear they would be better suited for recognition lights. I assume it has to do with the color of the light rather than the design or the inherit nature of a LED. I dislike the bluish hue and much prefer the warmer more yellow light. I appreciate the low current draw and the longer life and was wondering if there is a replacement that more closely resembles the warmer light.

 

[denverpilot]

I'm not in the market tight now but have a question: I notice that with flashlights (and headlights), a LED light is indeed brighter, and I assume can be seen from a greater distance, but seems to lack the penetrating power of a regular flashlight or headlight. Is this the case with the landing/taxi lights as well? It would appear they would be better suited for recognition lights. I assume it has to do with the color of the light rather than the design or the inherit nature of a LED. I dislike the bluish hue and much prefer the warmer more yellow light. I appreciate the low current draw and the longer life and was wondering if there is a replacement that more closely resembles the warmer light.

I was concerned about that also, but wouldn't go back. The bluish white LED light reflects far better off of runway paint and reflective markers. It does get sucked up a bit on completely black surfaces like new asphalt, but not enough to care.

 

[Unit74]

To replace the position lights, strobes and beacon with LED what does that cost? Are they really worth the effort in improved visibility? I already have an LED landing light and it's pretty bright.

 

[iflyvfr]

Is this the case with the landing/taxi lights as well? It would appear they would be better suited for recognition lights. I assume it has to do with the color of the light rather than the design or the inherit nature of a LED. I dislike the bluish hue and much prefer the warmer more yellow light. I appreciate the low current draw and the longer life and was wondering if there is a replacement that more closely resembles the warmer light.

I don't fly much at night, but I have landed late a few times this summer and have two LED landing lights in my wing. I think you are mistaken about the warmer yellow light: it seems to be darker and to accentuate shadows.

Like in the demonstration photos above, the blue light really pops the runway on landing IME and made night landing a non-event. I think LED lights to replace my yellow 4509's is one of the greatest upgrades since XM weather for this VFR pilot.

 

[denverpilot]

By the way, since the incandescents on the cowl were blown more than they were working, the LEDs also fixed that. When the switch is on, we have light, period.

 

[murphey]

To replace the position lights, strobes and beacon with LED what does that cost? Are they really worth the effort in improved visibility? I already have an LED landing light and it's pretty bright.

Not cheap but it really comes down to 2 questions
1. Do you need the considerable reduction in amp load?
2. Do you want to spend the money?

The Whelen Orion line will run $450 each (need 2) for the wingtips. The LED beacon will run about $650. Installation extra. Fortunately, installation on the wingtips is very easy (cheaper!). Tail position light about $200-250, another trivial installation (I did it, A&P blessed it - it's a simple bulb replacement)

 

[dans2992]

Primary advantage - you can run them as long as you want and they'll NEVER be burned out.

Secondary advantage - whiter light, better vis.

Totally, totally worth the (relatively minor) cost.

 

[Pedals2Paddles]

Primary advantage - you can run them as long as you want and they'll NEVER be burned out.

Secondary advantage - whiter light, better vis.

Totally, totally worth the (relatively minor) cost.

You forgot the third advantage. They look so freakin sharp.

Oh, and if you are discontinuing a really old strobe system, advantage number 4: No more charging capacitor sound in the background of all your radio transmissions.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

To replace the position lights, strobes and beacon with LED what does that cost? Are they really worth the effort in improved visibility? I already have an LED landing light and it's pretty bright.

The LED landing light is one of the best, most cost-effective upgrades in GA.

The rest are pretty expensive and don't offer that big of an advantage. The standard bulbs don't burn out as often as the landing light bulbs do (/did), so it's unlikely you'd ever recoup cost. They do certainly make your plane look nicer and newer, and they're probably slightly more visible, but that's it.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I'm not in the market tight now but have a question: I notice that with flashlights (and headlights), a LED light is indeed brighter, and I assume can be seen from a greater distance, but seems to lack the penetrating power of a regular flashlight or headlight. Is this the case with the landing/taxi lights as well? It would appear they would be better suited for recognition lights. I assume it has to do with the color of the light rather than the design or the inherit nature of a LED.

It's all in the design of the light. Many LED flashlights are just a series of LED's with a mirror behind them and lack the parabolic reflectors that help put the light where you want it.

In the case of landing lights, they'd never work (or sell) if they didn't have a better design, and they do - The LED's are bright and arranged in front of a series of mini-parabolic reflectors, so they work somewhat better than the originals in terms of lighting up things in front of you.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

The FAA has NEVER made a mistake? Manufacturers of aircraft parts and upgrades have NEVER made a mistake? PMA's are always justified? Or just an excuse for manufacturers to waste money to make some paper pushers happy? You trust the FAA with your life? You trust the government with your life?

Now ask yourself, assuming common sense prevails and a simple bulb replacement far exceeds all expectations in every way, does not induce noise in any circuit and in no way interferes with aircraft operation, while reducing current flow, heat dissapation and thus reducing load on the alternator (and increasing battery life and amount of devices you can run on your backup alternator in full IMC), why wouldn't you?

Enjoy waiting until 2024 for your PMA'd lights. I'm taking advantage of new technology before I retire or sell my plane.

Um... Why the venom? I have some PMA'd LED lights on the plane already. The only reason I'm waiting on the rest is a lower cost/benefit ratio.

 

[txflyer]

If I had a radial, I'd bust my butt to put some LED's in the motor like the Aeroshell team.

Way cool.

 

[N801BH]

If I had a radial, I'd bust my butt to put some LED's in the motor like the Aeroshell team.

Way cool.

Ya notice the lower plane has a burnt out bulb on the left wing......

Ps... Unless they wig wag and the pic was shot at the right moment...

 

[denverpilot]

Ya notice the lower plane has a burnt out bulb on the left wing......

Ps... Unless they wig wag and the pic was shot at the right moment...

They wig wag. It looks awesome.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10203382694920812&id=1614828908

 

[JSumeracki]

Sorry for the less than desirable FAA references, I am passionate about this subject. I just cannot understand why everyone limits themselves to PMA'd lights? The industry created the false appearance that certification was required and for PART 91 it is not.

End of story, guaranteed: the Rigid R+ 3,400 lumen PAR36 LED. For $210, there is no brighter PAR36 and I would love to put it up against any 250W incandescent. It draws only 40W. I have three on my plane and safely illuminate 500+ feet of approach while still 200 feet up with no runway lights active...

Please see Previous post (with picture):

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1555458&postcount=18

 

[JSumeracki]

Ya notice the lower plane has a burnt out bulb on the left wing......

Ps... Unless they wig wag and the pic was shot at the right moment...

I'll bet those LED's illuminating the rotary engines are not PMA'd!

 

[N801BH]

I'll bet those LED's illuminating the rotary engines are not PMA'd!

I will bet ya the ( Radial ) engines are in an experimental /exibition plane too...

 

[tmyers]

Yep many of the old warbirds are in the Experimental category now.

 

[trepine]

For all of you replacing your stock nav lamps with the drop in replacement LED's, be warned that NONE of them are approved for Type Certificated aircraft.

Here's the killer on the NavStrobes that are all the rage- These lamps are supposed to replace NAV lamps, BUT, and I quote from the manufacturer:

"When these lights are in strobe mode, do the red & green nav lights still illuminate between strobe flashes?
Per the supplier: No. There is no light output between light bursts.

Do these satisfy the anti-collision beacon requirement for night VFR?
Per the supplier: My strobe lights do not meet the requirements for anti-collision lights. They are only a replacement for the standard navigation or position lights, with the additional strobe feature for safety." **********************

So you no longer have nav lights when the strobes are on. That's a deal breaker, since nav lights are required for night flight, and they do NOT meet the requirements for strobe lights. So you've now lost your nav light function (intentionally to boot), which is a Part 91.205c, violation in addition to the Unapproved Parts that made your airplane Unairworthy the moment you installed them.

And on the other LED replacements for the 7512 wingtip lamps, those are not TSO'd lamps produced under a PMA. Because nav lights are required for night flight, they have a certification basis which is TSO C30c. In order to conform to the TSO, a manufacturer must apply for evaluation of his product, meet the standards, be granted a PMA to produce them, mark the parts with the TSO number, and be subject to continuing FAA surveillance of his Quality Control System. You can't just set up shop and make a lamp claiming that it meets a standard. These lamps are also NOT standard parts because there is NO standard for LED lamps. LED lamps use drivers that can emit RFI, unlike incandescent lamps. LED or HID lamps must be evaluated for RFI an approved on an individual basis because no standards yet exist for those special attributes.

This is not true. The Whelen Orion 600 are a drop in replacement, and are TCO'd, and also for my application DA40 XLS, are in the diamond field service manual as a replacement. I've been researching this for 2 months, and have a pair sitting on my desk, taking them to have them installed tuesday.

http://www.whelen.com/pb/Aviation/Product Sheets/Orion_600.pdf

 

[MooneyDriver78]

Whelen LEDs are so popular that they are sold out in many places, AP called them, they are running 4-8 weeks behind on some of their products.

 

[trepine]

Whelen LEDs are so popular that they are sold out in many places, AP called them, they are running 4-8 weeks behind on some of their products.

This is where I bought them, they had them one week ago, and a really good price as far as what I was able to find online.

http://www.buyplaneparts.com/6-nav-...-wing-tip-nav-strobe-position-assy-or600-18d/

 

[trepine]

Orion 600's Installed

 

[MooneyDriver78]

Orion 600's Installed

I just had the 650s installed as well landing lights, my shop called them obnoxiously bright.

 

[Ted]

Just tested the Teledyne Alphabeams on the 310 the other night.

Without a doubt, much brighter, better color, and better pattern than the Whelen Parametheus lights. Not sure about the Parametheus Pros.

The Alphabeams are bigger than the standard GE bulbs or the Parametheus, though, and may require some modifications to the plane to fit.

 

[bnt83]

I saw another unexpected consequence the other day, the LED bulb was installed in the cowling of a turbo 182RG, the bulb melted from exhaust heat.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Just tested the Teledyne Alphabeams on the 310 the other night.

I just got to use our new Parmetheus Plus taxi light the other night - Another taxi light went dead and we replaced it.

So now, I still have GE 4596 (250W) halogens for the landing lights, but I have an original Parmetheus landing light as my left taxi light and the Parmetheus Plus taxi light as the other.

Brightness is good, but I'm not sure I'm going to like it when we swap the landing light out for another taxi light (already acquired) - The Mooney has a long cowl and like in some other planes, I sometimes wish my taxi lights had a "high beam" switch on them! The landing light does the trick nicely, while the taxi lights spread the light out more. However, my only impression is from a single flight and I only had the new taxi light on by itself for a bit.

When I pulled up near the hangars across from me prior to shutdown, it seemed that the difference in spread was not as great as I had originally perceived. It'll be interesting to see what it's like when I have both taxi lights done, and whether they overlap enough out front to make me happy.

The landing lights, I'll probably do the XeVision 50W HID's when the time comes.

 

[Pedals2Paddles]

I'm anxious for comparison of the Parmetheus Plus landing lights vs Alphabeam landing lights.


>

 

[philiplane]

This is not true. The Whelen Orion 600 are a drop in replacement, and are TCO'd, and also for my application DA40 XLS, are in the diamond field service manual as a replacement. I've been researching this for 2 months, and have a pair sitting on my desk, taking them to have them installed tuesday.

http://www.whelen.com/pb/Aviation/Product Sheets/Orion_600.pdf

These are indeed certified, but they are not a "drop-in" replacement for the 7512 lamps. They are an entire new housing assembly, which proves my point that to get LED's to meet the field of view requirements, you need a whole new light assembly, not just a bulb.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I just got to use our new Parmetheus Plus taxi light the other night - Another taxi light went dead and we replaced it.

So now, I still have GE 4596 (250W) halogens for the landing lights, but I have an original Parmetheus landing light as my left taxi light and the Parmetheus Plus taxi light as the other.

Brightness is good, but I'm not sure I'm going to like it when we swap the landing light out for another taxi light (already acquired) - The Mooney has a long cowl and like in some other planes, I sometimes wish my taxi lights had a "high beam" switch on them! The landing light does the trick nicely, while the taxi lights spread the light out more. However, my only impression is from a single flight and I only had the new taxi light on by itself for a bit.

When I pulled up near the hangars across from me prior to shutdown, it seemed that the difference in spread was not as great as I had originally perceived. It'll be interesting to see what it's like when I have both taxi lights done, and whether they overlap enough out front to make me happy.

The landing lights, I'll probably do the XeVision 50W HID's when the time comes.

So, our current configuration is two Parmetheus Plus taxi lights (one in each wing), a Parmetheus landing light in the left wing and the original (er, original type at least) GE 4596 landing light in the right wing.

Last night, that 4596 did what they do, and it burned out on an 11-minute flight. When I went to land, I felt like none of the lights were working - The Parmetheus landing light did not even come close to replacing the 4596 in terms of light intensity at the distances needed for landing.

We'll keep the Parmetheus Plus taxi lights, and I wouldn't hesitate to use the Parmetheus (Plus or not) landing lights in place of the GE 4509's that many planes use, but their claim that they're bright enough to replace a 250W lamp is simply not true.

HID's are on the way.