Leaving the Engine Running

James331 said:
Not dangerous, but also not something someone who pays for the engine is probably going to do
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All it takes is for the student to get bored during those 25 minutes waiting on the CFI and whip out their cell phone, relax their feet on the brakes and boom, the prop is embedded into the side of a $1M King Air.
 
lancie00 said:
When I went on a cross country my instructor had me get someone at the destination airport sign my log book. I never thought much about it but I guess it's not a required. I just always assumed it was. Boy do I feel stupid now. :(
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same with me.
 
Give the guy a break. The order was probably called in before hand. Unfortunately, they didn't include the right sauce, so they had to fix the order.

And, since it was the CFI paying for the order, his first three credit cards were more than likely denied. He had probably had to call his parents to get their credit card info.

These things take time.
 
Skyrys62 said:
Wouldn't the prop provide some air cooling?
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The cowlings on lots of older planes are so badly designed that at idle the actually get more cooking when facing with the wind than into it. About 5 knots of breeze from behind is better than an idling propeller in front.


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Eric Gleason said:
The cowlings on lots of older planes are so badly designed that at idle the actually get more cooking when facing with the wind than into it. About 5 knots of breeze from behind is better than an idling propeller in front.


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Really depends on the particular airplane.

Granted, I fly a bunch of older radials, but wind from behind is never preferable to pointing into the wind.
 
rk911 said:
my cfi related a story from when he was in the aviation program at a major university. seems a student took off on what was to be a XC flight but instead flew to a nearby un-towered airfield, landed and kept the engine running to build time on the tach and hobbs. don't recall how he was caught but he was caught and tossed from the program.
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A similar story occurred in the program I attended at college. Student was afraid to do the cross-country solo. In this case he was caught because he opted to use a common diversion field for our school planes and another instructor spotted it sitting on the ramp with the engine running.

I think he was kindly invited to find another career path. Our college was proactive about trying to catch guys that just didn't have what it took and saving them the expense of learning to fly if it wasn't going to work out.
 
SkyDog58 said:
I could understand it if it was for Carolina BBQ, but Texas BBQ? YGBSM!
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I known the student should have gone over, too.

I’ve had Hard 8 and it’s good stuff.
 
Even if the parking brake is on, I’m on the pedals anytime the engine is running. 20 minutes standing on the toe brakes is a little tough on the old calves...

Bill Watson said:
No one mentioned plug fouling.
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This. Worse than sore calves.
 
lancie00 said:
When I went on a cross country my instructor had me get someone at the destination airport sign my log book. I never thought much about it but I guess it's not a required. I just always assumed it was. Boy do I feel stupid now. :(
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It was required at one time, at least it was in the mid 1970s when I was learning, but I understand it no longer is. Another little ritual gone...
 
Dana said:
It was required at one time, at least it was in the mid 1970s when I was learning, but I understand it no longer is. Another little ritual gone...
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I learned in the mid 70s and it wasn’t required. I never had to do it, my CFI never mentioned it, nor have I ever required any of mine to do it. If they want to cheat that badly that’s their deal, and they’re just cheating their self.
 
mscard88 said:
I learned in the mid 70s and it wasn’t required. I never had to do it, my CFI never mentioned it, nor have I ever required any of mine to do it. If they want to cheat that badly that’s their deal, and they’re just cheating their self.
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Early 70s here and I do remember talking about the requirement to get a signature. But I can’t recall getting it. In fact I can’t remember where I landed or whether I actually did land, or whether I got back.

What I do remember is flying over McGuire AFB at 5,000’ and watching 2 fighters (F4s?) roll on takeoff, then climb right past me in one beautiful steep climbing turn. Yes, I’ll never forget that!

Lots of that going around these days, eh?


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mscard88 said:
I learned in the mid 70s and it wasn’t required. I never had to do it, my CFI never mentioned it, nor have I ever required any of mine to do it. If they want to cheat that badly that’s their deal, and they’re just cheating their self.
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When I told someone at one of my destination airports that I was on my long solo XC, he asked me if anyone signed my logbook. I said yes, thinking he was asking me if my instructor had endorsed me to take the flight. :oops: :eek:
 
Bill Watson said:
Early 70s here and I do remember talking about the requirement to get a signature. But I can’t recall getting it. In fact I can’t remember where I landed or whether I actually did land, or whether I got back.
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I just picked up a couple business cards to show where I had been. No signature was even mentioned on my cross countries.
 
rk911 said:
same with me.
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My dad was surprised when I didn’t have to-he had to have his signed at all the stops as well.

The funny one on his was landing at a remote airport only to find no one there, then hiking into town and trying to explain to a random person why he needed them to sign this book for a stranger...
 
Craig said:
We had a gal here in the DFW manage to walk into the prop getting in or out of a Cessna. She lost an eye and part of one arm. Kinda tanked her modeling career. There has been at least one law suit over it.
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She was a passenger allowed to exit after a night-flight. Different story from an instructor getting out with the engine running. Rather than some nefarious reason I would guess that they had a weak battery or a problem with the charging system.
 
Bulldog573 said:
Even if the parking brake is on, I’m on the pedals anytime the engine is running. 20 minutes standing on the toe brakes is a little tough on the old calves...

This. Worse than sore calves.
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are we talking about sitting there at 1,800 RPMs? .....idle shouldn't be all that much.;)
 
Eric Gleason said:
The cowlings on lots of older planes are so badly designed that at idle the actually get more cooking when facing with the wind than into it. About 5 knots of breeze from behind is better than an idling propeller in front.
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That makes no sense. Please name one or two.
 
On my long solo XC during primary training I slightly misjudged the hours in flight to meet my total XC time. Came up 0.1 short. After a few minutes of idling I figured I might as well go make a lap around the pattern. Not sure how someone would want to just sit on the ramp burning gas for the sake of logbook time. Or making your student do that? Seems really stupid to me.
 
Bill Watson said:
Early 70s here and I do remember talking about the requirement to get a signature. But I can’t recall getting it. In fact I can’t remember where I landed or whether I actually did land, or whether I got back.

What I do remember is flying over McGuire AFB at 5,000’ and watching 2 fighters (F4s?) roll on takeoff, then climb right past me in one beautiful steep climbing turn. Yes, I’ll never forget that!

Lots of that going around these days, eh?


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Now I heard of CFIs requiring it but none of mine made me do it. It may have been just a “well we’ve always done it this way” requirement but I don’t know.

I was stationed at McGuire in ‘74 and the ANG had F-105s there, but certainly could’ve been F-4s also.
 
Stewartb said:
That makes no sense. Please name one or two.
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Substitute badly designed cowl for has baffles that are worn and/or loose which means they leak like a sieve. Bottom line is the system was never designed to adequately cool the engine for long periods on prop blast alone.
 
Stewartb said:
That makes no sense. Please name one or two.
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I agree. I'm not buying that.

My engine monitor also shows no issues when idling. There's really not much heat being put out by the engine at idle compared to takeoff or even cruise power.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
Substitute badly designed cowl for has baffles that are worn and/or loose which means they leak like a sieve. Bottom line is the system was never designed to adequately cool the engine for long periods on prop blast alone.
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And yet my earlier comment about ground running for 20 minutes and not approaching normal operating temps remains true. Which is consistent with my history of extended slow taxi times I’ve had at Lake Hood during busy season. What’s your experience?

Bad baffles would be a much bigger problem at flight power than on the ground idling.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
Substitute badly designed cowl for has baffles that are worn and/or loose which means they leak like a sieve. Bottom line is the system was never designed to adequately cool the engine for long periods on prop blast alone.
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Baffles won't be an issue at idle. They largely rely on ram air pressure in order to force the air through the cylinders cooling fins. Idle really doesn't produce much, if any, ram air pressure so the real key is just moving air inside the cowling to take heat away from the entirety of the engine.

An engine heater puts out ~200W depending on the model you have. An idling engine probably puts out about 10hp (guessing) which would be ~7500W. An engine heater takes several hours to warm the entirety of the engine even when covered with an insulated cover and no air moving through the engine.

If you add in even the slightest amount of convection, an engine heater would be pretty ineffective. Now add in a lot of convection (idling prop) and I have a hard time imagining 7500W for 20 minutes evenly distributed around the cylinders would damage an engine that was designed to be cooled convectively. Really, the worse of a design the cowling is for flight, means it'll allow more air to move around on the ground and help. I can see how a WELL designed cowling would do poorly at idle on the ground.

I could see this being the case on something super tightly cowled, like a 195 or lancair, but for the majority of our Cessna/Piper/Beech's it really shouldn't be an issue.
 
mscard88 said:
I was stationed at McGuire in ‘74 and the ANG had F-105s there, but certainly could’ve been F-4s also.
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Oh, recall can be so tricky! I just finished typing a response that was total nonsense because it mixed up my initial training at Pgh’s KAGC in ‘70-‘71 with my later training at NJ’s Trenton Robbinsville in ‘77 when I did my solo CC.

Anyway, the solo CC was definitely in ‘77 and the F4 was still the badass at the time (Randy Cunningham and all that). I’m guessing I recall F4s only because it was the hot fighter in the public’s mind at the time, sort of like the Spitfire and the Mustang tended to eclipse their more numerous stablemates.

But they were probably not F4s which were giant aircraft that tended to leave a memorable trail of smoke behind and I don’t remember that. The fighters seemed smallish and therefore very fast as they flew through my flight path and altitude. Fact is, I don’t have a clue except that it’s the only thing I remember about the flight in addition to remembering to play with the mixture and lean it out at altitude, something we rarely did during training.

The mind works in funny ways.


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lancie00 said:
When I went on a cross country my instructor had me get someone at the destination airport sign my log book. I never thought much about it but I guess it's not a required. I just always assumed it was. Boy do I feel stupid now. :(
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Yep. I had a worker at a barbecue stand sign mine!
 
Omalley1537 said:
My dad was surprised when I didn’t have to-he had to have his signed at all the stops as well.

The funny one on his was landing at a remote airport only to find no one there, then hiking into town and trying to explain to a random person why he needed them to sign this book for a stranger...
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There's a 90 year old instructor in Smithville, Lori Adams, who has a lot of stories to tell. When she soloed, she flew into a little airport in Dallas called Love Field! She said it was a holiday and she couldn't find anyone working there. Finally, she sees a big guy with a cowboy hat on and he had two small Mexican ladies with him. She asking him if he would sign her logbook and he did. She got back to her home base and her instructor was shocked. He asked, "John Wayne signed your logbook?!" She asked, "Who is John Wayne?"
 
Bill Watson said:
Oh, recall can be so tricky! I just finished typing a response that was total nonsense because it mixed up my initial training at Pgh’s KAGC in ‘70-‘71 with my later training at NJ’s Trenton Robbinsville in ‘77 when I did my solo CC.

Anyway, the solo CC was definitely in ‘77 and the F4 was still the badass at the time (Randy Cunningham and all that). I’m guessing I recall F4s only because it was the hot fighter in the public’s mind at the time, sort of like the Spitfire and the Mustang tended to eclipse their more numerous stablemates.

But they were probably not F4s which were giant aircraft that tended to leave a memorable trail of smoke behind and I don’t remember that. The fighters seemed smallish and therefore very fast as they flew through my flight path and altitude. Fact is, I don’t have a clue except that it’s the only thing I remember about the flight in addition to remembering to play with the mixture and lean it out at altitude, something we rarely did during training.

The mind works in funny ways.


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Got my private at McGuire Aero Club. Did many a touch n go at Robinsville. Older F-4s definitely smoked but newer models had a “smokeless engines”, or the engines were modified. F-105 didn’t leave a smoke trail as far I recall. But, they hauled the mail.
 
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Stewartb said:
And yet my earlier comment about ground running for 20 minutes and not approaching normal operating temps remains true. Which is consistent with my history of extended slow taxi times I’ve had at Lake Hood during busy season. What’s your experience?

Bad baffles would be a much bigger problem at flight power than on the ground idling.
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Below 20f I don't even open the cowl flaps, not even for take off. Oil temp is barely in the green at take off, and cylinder head temps don't hit the green until well into the take off roll.
 
The prop of a 172 is low to the ground. Even on a hard surface, after time there will be some wear to the prop from small rocks, fine grains of sand, etc. I wouldn't want them to do that to my airplane.
 
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