Leaving the Engine Running

Lowflynjack

Lowflynjack

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Jack Fleetwood
So on the North Texas Aviators Facebook page, someone mentioned seeing a 172 land and the instructor getting out, leaving the student sitting in the plane with it running. The instructor made a phone call and someone from Hard 8 BBQ came and got him. He returned 15-20 minutes later with BBQ.

What makes it even more strange to me is, this happened on a Monday, but I was at that airport on Sunday and also saw a 172 sitting in the tie down area running. It caught my attention because it sat there running the entire 20-25 minutes I was at the airport. I didn't think much of it other than it was strange.

Now, take out the fact that it's probably not good on an air-cooled engine to idle this long, but others have mentioned they've seen schools/instructors employing this tactic to build hours. This hadn't crossed my mind before, but I guess it could be happening. There is no way I would let an instructor do this if I was paying for the time, but I guess others might.

I'm not saying this is exactly what was going on in this situation I saw, but have any of you ever heard of this being done? Seems like a dangerous practice for a lot of reasons.
 
Stingray Don said:
Not sure about dangerous but seems like a dishonest way to build hours
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I'm not saying it's terribly dangerous, but there are some risks. Getting in and out of a running plane is dangerous. Leaving a student at the controls with the plane running the whole time could be dangerous, not to mention the added risk you always have on a ramp with a plane running. If I owned the plane, I would be mad if someone had my plane running that long on a ramp without moving. What damage is that doing to the engine?

But essentially, I agree the biggest issue may be logging hours dishonestly.
 
If you’re gonna do that stupid crap, you might as well just pencil whip your logbook and save the $$$ and wear and tear on the airplane, IMO.
 
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From an ethical standpoint, one would hope the students are signed off to be at that field
solo while the instructor is gone.

.3 sitting around on the ramp several times per day is hard on the motor and can increase (over time) the frequency of oil changes.

It would be nice to know if the owner is aware of these practices.
 
As to the hot loading of PAX/Instructor in a 172...meh. Its hard to walk into a prop from a 172 type plane.

Just letting the plane run for 20-30min to build time is crummy.
 
I don't have a dog in this fight and don't much care.

How do your Hobbs meters work? Even if tach time an idling engine won't accumulate time very quickly.

I had the need to ground run my engine for 15-20 minutes a couple of times. I have an engine monitor. My temps all stayed well below normal operating temps.
 
We had a gal here in the DFW manage to walk into the prop getting in or out of a Cessna. She lost an eye and part of one arm. Kinda tanked her modeling career. There has been at least one law suit over it.
 
Lowflynjack said:
I agree the biggest issue may be logging hours dishonestly.
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I have never heard of this, but yes.

As an instructor I only left the plane with the student in it when it was time to solo.

One time when I was a student, after landing and contacting ground, I was given instructions.... hold short and wait for the business jet, then turn behind that jet to parking. I did not stop, I continued (spacing was lots, no one was on the taxy way yet) and told the controller, "unable. Have the jet wait for me to taxi in first. I am paying for his and my flight time."

The controller did so, and the jet held. And my instructor was mortified.!!!! Because the pilot of that jet was the owner of the flight school. My instructor was positive he was going to be fired and that I was going to be kicked out. We walked into the dispatch and everyone was looking at me. The dispatcher asked me if I really had the owner hold and wait. Yes, time is money and I don't have much of either.

I was a money thinking student. From the second lesson when I was parking I would pull the mixture first, then do the shut down check list. I have seen students take 10 minutes just to shut down a C-152. 10 minutes on several lessons adds up in cash I didn't need to spend. If an instructor had left me in the plane with the engine running for more than a few seconds I would have shut down.
 
The Arrow I flew for my instrument rating was notoriously difficult to hot start.

When my instructor and I used to fly over to grab some ribs at Michelbob's (Naples) he'd leave me in the aircraft with the engine running while he ran across the street to pick up our ribs

:D
 
Building hours,can it get any easier.
 
Stewartb said:
How do your Hobbs meters work?
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Most flight schools I am familiar with the Hobbs runs off the battery. So as soon as the master is turned on the Hobbs starts running.

Building flight time was a matter of leaving the master on.
 
Most Cessnas use an oil pressure switch to activate the Hobbs.
 
Stewartb said:
I don't have a dog in this fight and don't much care.
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Even though I posted this, I'm with you. I thought it would be an interesting topic, and I think if they're caught doing it, the FAA might have some concerns, but I'm not the type to get involved unless I truly think it's a safety issue.
 
Grum.Man said:
no pleasing you guys. Leave the plane running you get mad, hand prop your Cirrus and you get mad. What's it going to take???
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As may Cirrus (Cirruses? Cirri?) as I've seen pilots having trouble hot-starting, maybe they should just leave them running!
 
Stupid on so many fronts.

And a running engine is always a risk on the ground especially when it’s doing something unusual like running for 20 minutes for no apparent reason, “hey, what’s wrong over there, better go check it out”.

No one mentioned plug fouling.

If it’s hard to hot start, figure out how to do it so it isn’t.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
 
Wouldn't the prop provide some air cooling?

There is also the pollution factor of just sitting idling.

Oh gawd, I'm going to get it for that one...
 
My ding against the instructor includes "What bad habits are you teaching and reinforcing on this neophyte pilot?"

As one who is working toward his CFI credentials, I am becoming more and more aware of how the habits, both good and bad, have formed my way of flying. And now I'm trying to identify the bad ones so I don't wind up passing them onto my students.
 
Zeldman said:
10 minutes on several lessons adds up in cash I didn't need to spend.
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Hours / Cash. I don't want to pay to idle for an hour, but if I get an hour of flight time in exchange, it's not a total loss.

Personally I would have shut down and gone in and ate.
 
I once heard a story about a rotor wing student. When the time came for the first solo cross country off went the student. The student then returned a few hours later right on schedule and said everything went fine. Then they went to top off the tanks and found that it took a lot less fuel than they expected it to take. Turns out the student was hyper nervous about getting lost so he flew to an empty field a few miles from the airport and put it down. He sat idling in the field for a few hours then flew back to the airport. He didn't take into consideration that the motor burns a lot less fuel when its idling than it does when its making power.
 
Not dangerous, but also not something someone who pays for the engine is probably going to do
 
never know what a sp might do next
 
Stingray Don said:
Not sure about dangerous but seems like a dishonest way to build hours
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my cfi related a story from when he was in the aviation program at a major university. seems a student took off on what was to be a XC flight but instead flew to a nearby un-towered airfield, landed and kept the engine running to build time on the tach and hobbs. don't recall how he was caught but he was caught and tossed from the program.

as to the original post...I was taught that it was very dangerous to exit the plane with the prop spinning and it was done only in case of a 'my God we're gonna die' emergency. BBQ regardless of how good that BBQ may be does not achieve that standard.
 
donno man.. it seems going on a long XC in slow flight is lot more fun and will get you your what # of hrs you are chasing for
 
rk911 said:
my cfi related a story from when he was in the aviation program at a major university. seems a student took off on what was to be a XC flight but instead flew to a nearby un-towered airfield, landed and kept the engine running to build time on the tach and hobbs. don't recall how he was caught but he was caught and tossed from the program.

as to the original post...I was taught that it was very dangerous to exit the plane with the prop spinning and it was done only in case of a 'my God we're gonna die' emergency. BBQ regardless of how good that BBQ may be does not achieve that standard.
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That’s crazy to me, I mean you’re paying for the hours just the same, if you don’t enjoy flying why are you spending all that money to become a pilot?
 
rk911 said:
my cfi related a story from when he was in the aviation program at a major university. seems a student took off on what was to be a XC flight but instead flew to a nearby un-towered airfield, landed and kept the engine running to build time on the tach and hobbs. don't recall how he was caught but he was caught and tossed from the program.

as to the original post...I was taught that it was very dangerous to exit the plane with the prop spinning and it was done only in case of a 'my God we're gonna die' emergency. BBQ regardless of how good that BBQ may be does not achieve that standard.
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lots of CFI;s will exit the plane with the engine running when it comes to solo. i know mine did
 
WannFly said:
lots of CFI;s will exit the plane with the engine running when it comes to solo. i know mine did
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Yeah mine did too. Morning of my first solo I had no idea. We did a pattern trip and as I pulled off the runway he said “how’s it feeling?” I said “good.” Then he just said “okay pull off on the taxiway intersection here.” I did so. He grabbed his flight bag, pulled a handheld radio out and said to not let off the brakes until I heard him tell me to do so on the radio, and to make the next three as good as the first one had been.
 
James331 said:
That’s crazy to me, I mean you’re paying for the hours just the same, if you don’t enjoy flying why are you spending all that money to become a pilot?
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some folks are always looking for the EZ way out.
 
never know what a vet pilot might do next either
 
easy explanation might be a bad battery so the left it running and attended.
 
Craig said:
We had a gal here in the DFW manage to walk into the prop getting in or out of a Cessna. She lost an eye and part of one arm. Kinda tanked her modeling career. There has been at least one law suit over it.
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That was terrible.
 
rk911 said:
my cfi related a story from when he was in the aviation program at a major university. seems a student took off on what was to be a XC flight but instead flew to a nearby un-towered airfield, landed and kept the engine running to build time on the tach and hobbs. don't recall how he was caught but he was caught and tossed from the program.

as to the original post...I was taught that it was very dangerous to exit the plane with the prop spinning and it was done only in case of a 'my God we're gonna die' emergency. BBQ regardless of how good that BBQ may be does not achieve that standard.
Click to expand...

When I went on a cross country my instructor had me get someone at the destination airport sign my log book. I never thought much about it but I guess it's not a required. I just always assumed it was. Boy do I feel stupid now. :(
 
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