Captain
Final Approach
I'll cross over at 1,500 in a Piaggio and turn directly into downwind, BUT I'm looking for the piston doing the same at 1,500 with my eyes, TCAS and radio. Also, my downwind is much wider.
Learnt somethin' new yesterday
- Thread starter flhrci
- Start date
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
Nothing inherently wrong with the mid-field cross-over as long as you are paying attention to your surroundings (which you SHOULD be doing for any pattern entry).
My only beef with the mid-field cross-over entry is that I personally have witnessed more traffic conflicts created by people using that entry that were paying no attention to others already in the pattern than any other entry method. That isn't the fault of the method itself, just the knuckleheads who aren't paying attention.
Merge. Come in behind someone. Listen on the radio. Look out intensely. Dont run into anyone and dont get into any fights on the frequency.
There is "Departure" and there is "upwind". I dont like calling departure upwind. Departure is straight out from the runway and you are climbing. Upwind is parallel to the ruway on opposite side of downwind and going the opposite direction. Some people were taught to call departure upwind, unfortunately.
I dont see anything wrong with crossing midfield to enter a downwind on the other side. Works just fine. Dont cut anyone off though. The teardrop is unnecessarily complicated. You can do it if you want though, just not necessary.
There is "Departure" and there is "upwind". I dont like calling departure upwind. Departure is straight out from the runway and you are climbing. Upwind is parallel to the ruway on opposite side of downwind and going the opposite direction. Some people were taught to call departure upwind, unfortunately.
I dont see anything wrong with crossing midfield to enter a downwind on the other side. Works just fine. Dont cut anyone off though. The teardrop is unnecessarily complicated. You can do it if you want though, just not necessary.
dtuuri
Final Approach
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pigpenracing
En-Route
That's why I like my Cub so much. I don't have a radio at all. Just fly in and land, look out to make sure I am not cutting anyone off. I love it...
I get tired of listening to idiots calling in.
I get tired of listening to idiots calling in.
BillTIZ
Final Approach
Yes, that's what the AIM says, except it's 500 above the highest TPA (there may be more than one).
Lots of people think they know better. It's POA. Would you expect any different?
At least no one (yet) has advocated the overhead break.
I'll propose the Hammerhead Entry onto downwind. Hey, it's not illegal as long as you make all turns to the left!
That, and in a low wing airplane you've got a wing up in a turn blocking the view of any traffic coming into the downwind. So you need to make that big turn well away from the pattern so you are wings level on the 45 entry.
dtuuri
Final Approach
denverpilot
Tied Down
Don't get complacent. If they went around early in a go-around, they're there already.
YGTBFKM.
A) Jeppessen isn't the end all be all of training materials.
B) We do hope you've read something else besides that one book??? Like maybe one of the multitude of free ones from the FAA?!
Caramon13
Pattern Altitude
And why is someone calling in on a radio an idiot? Being NORDO doesn't make you any more "elite" then anyone else. Good for you that you can fly a pattern with your eyeballs, but don't imply that your method is somehow better than someone with a radio and the skills to use it properly.
But I don't want to derail this situation into a nordo/radio conversation.
To the OP, I've been taught upwind/crosswind/downwind/base/final since I started about 23 years ago. I suppose if you learned before that time, opinions may vary, but I hear that term a LOT. Especially for extending pattern legs in heavy traffic situations.
Jaybird180
Final Approach
I understand that there's a movement toward the un-cluttering of radio space by using only downwind and final calls in busy pilot-controlled airspace.
Caramon13
Pattern Altitude
Gotcha, I would be a fan of that definitely. The guy who calls every leg isn't an idiot though. Definitely an "over-communicator" but nothing stupid or wrong about that other than clogging up the frequency.
It may seem like communication to someone who has heard every call, but this is not my audience ...
MAKG1
Touchdown! Greaser!
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Well, that might help a tiny bit, I suppose, but it would be a whole lot less congested if the conversation were kept to a minimum. No one in the pattern cares who you're meeting for lunch, for instance.
flhrci
Final Approach
ahkahn
Line Up and Wait
Lol.. there is an over-communicator at my airport that I have heard go so far as announcing GPS coordinates, "trajectory", estimated time to the next leg, addressing other pilots by tail number (yes, he writes them down), asking for their coordinates, trajectory, ground speed, paint scheme colors (if he doesn't know you), and the like. His calls are so detailed that by the time he's done calling one leg it's time to announce the next leg. Most everyone at my airport knows him. He is proud of his radio calls. He thinks he's putting safety first. If he's in the pattern, don't even bother talking. You'll never get a word in.
EDIT:
And, BTW, I've been using the "upwind" term since the early 90's when I started flying. I'll announce "on the upwind" if I do a go-around... or if someone else is entering on a cross-wind or may be affected by my location.
And.... I was taught to teardrop into the 45 downwind entry, as was my wife... but now I avoid it like the plague. Huge waste of time. I'll do a crosswind entry or if I'm the only one around (late at night, etc) a right base-to-final turn.
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RogerT
Cleared for Takeoff
I use all of those Jesse posted .. in addition to just entering on the "upwind" slightly
to the right of the runway. My least favorite is crossing midfield and entering the downwind as it puts you in potential conflict with someone entering on the 45 ... especially if you're in a low wing and putting the bottom of the airplane to them. In that case if there's no reported traffic I'll enter on the crosswind or .. go over 500 above and teardrop back to enter on the 45. Now I'm at a private field ... but .. as was the case often at Crete (KCEK) not all are good at using the radio so you have to stay alert.
RT
to the right of the runway. My least favorite is crossing midfield and entering the downwind as it puts you in potential conflict with someone entering on the 45 ... especially if you're in a low wing and putting the bottom of the airplane to them. In that case if there's no reported traffic I'll enter on the crosswind or .. go over 500 above and teardrop back to enter on the 45. Now I'm at a private field ... but .. as was the case often at Crete (KCEK) not all are good at using the radio so you have to stay alert.
RT
Hank S
En-Route
You have to stay alert anyway, as some don't have radios or electrical systems. Where I learned and was based, we had jumpers, Cubs, a Stearman with a radio (hard to understand over the wind noise in his mic) and a powered parachute (also lots of wind noise, plus the radio was battery powered).
A nearby field was infamous for poor or no radio use. I went there once, someone was doing touch and goes, not talking. After my approach and landing, I left and he continued, still not on the radio although we were separated by about a runway length while I was in the pattern. It's legal, just not very smart, to,not use the radio if you have one . . .
A nearby field was infamous for poor or no radio use. I went there once, someone was doing touch and goes, not talking. After my approach and landing, I left and he continued, still not on the radio although we were separated by about a runway length while I was in the pattern. It's legal, just not very smart, to,not use the radio if you have one . . .
Mike5250
Line Up and Wait
How do you personally enter the pattern NORDO? Curious, not starting a battle here!
That graphic sucks. While the text describes a reasonable pattern entry, the picture does not show someone going out 2 miles before heading back into the pattern. What it looks like is a very dangerous turning dive into the pattern which is the LAST thing you want to do.
While many people recommended that manouver, the FAA never did in the AIM nor in the Airplane Flying Handbook. The recommendation comes from self-appointed experts outside the FAA/
While many people recommended that manouver, the FAA never did in the AIM nor in the Airplane Flying Handbook. The recommendation comes from self-appointed experts outside the FAA/
denverpilot
Tied Down
So were you just pointing out how bad the Jepp books are, or were you hinting that there's people out there who wouldn't know what "upwind" is, or what?
flhrci
Final Approach
Wasn't bashing the Jepp books. Just pointing out in that particular book, the upwind is not in there and that book is what I started out with in 1997. So I suppose I was talk what was in the book. Not sure why it has never come up since then.
David