Learning to fly in a twin?

timwinters

timwinters

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A high school buddy called me last night. Like me, he's always loved aviation---we flew control line together starting in 4th grade---and now that his last kid is out of school and (more importantly) out of the house, he thinks he wants to buy a plane and learn to fly...it doesn't have to be in that order, but he'd rather.

He described his typical missions to me. He lives in SE MO, works in Indiana, has a lake home at Table Rock (SW MO) and has kids in school in both Springfield Mo and Ames, IA. 90% of his travels will be solo or only with his wife along.

I told him that he definitely needs his instrument rating before flying will be even "marginally practical."

And the more he talked, the more I thought a Twinkie would be perfect for his mission.

Discounting whether that's an accurate assessment or not (i.e. I'm not looking for opinions or pizzing contests about what plane he needs) what are the practicalities of learning to fly in a twin? Is it even possible?

I seriously don't know.
 
Its possible. It might be practical if you own your own airplane, otherwise probably better to get a single PPL first. There really are no shortcuts. Once he gets a single rating, he may change and be happy with a single. Twins are about triple the cost of a single per hour of flight sad to say....

If he does it in a twin, his instructor is going to really like all that twin time.
 
I think it bypasses some important basics learned buzzing around at low level, in low power flivvers for a while. Seriously. And it is going to cost much more, imo.
Consider the insurance alone.
 
I don't think a high performance or even a complex is out of the question as a first plane to get your private in, but a twin might be a little much.
 
Yes it's legal. Has been done many times, nothing unusual about it. It will be a lot more involved as there is a tremendous amount of time spent on single engine operations. IMO I would recommend a SE, whether fixed or retract gear to gain a better foundation and possibly move to a twin later.

Hell Thurman Munson did it in a Citation jet, and then crashed. I don't know if he did prior training in a SEL or not but he jumped right to a jet after if he did.
 
Sure, you CAN do it.

You'd be way better off building those initial building blocks in a glider or small Tailwheel.

I'd take a FIKI 210 over most trainer twins.

Want real "safety" get a C180/5 or Maule M7 on tundras, my neck of the woods my amphib gives me way more options compared to a trainer twin.

But I digress, who am I to stand between a man and his wallet, YES YOU CAN go from 0 in a twin, have fun and the economy thanks you!
 
timwinters said:
What I'm asking is...is it even legal?
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As others have already said, legal yes.

Aside from other cost factors, insurance is going to be a huge headache and may not even be feasible, especially learning in a Twinkie. Generally speaking, underwriters really don't like Twinkies for students. He might find it very difficult to find one who will even quote him.
 
Look at it this way, even though he CAN get his initial PPL in a twin, why would he want to? You can rent a Brand C/P/B SE trainer a/c with instructor at nearly any airport. Combined with the per-hour operating cost difference, using a less complex aircraft he'd probably reach the milestones of solo and checkride sooner in a single than in a twin -- I'd bet the cost is about a wash vs. ab initio in his own twin. Plus, he'll slowly build skills and confidence along the way.
 
timwinters said:
A high school buddy called me last night. Like me, he's always loved aviation---we flew control line together starting in 4th grade---and now that his last kid is out of school and (more importantly) out of the house, he thinks he wants to buy a plane and learn to fly...it doesn't have to be in that order, but he'd rather.

He described his typical missions to me. He lives in SE MO, works in Indiana, has a lake home at Table Rock (SW MO) and has kids in school in both Springfield Mo and Ames, IA. 90% of his travels will be solo or only with his wife along.

I told him that he definitely needs his instrument rating before flying will be even "marginally practical."

And the more he talked, the more I thought a Twinkie would be perfect for his mission.

Discounting whether that's an accurate assessment or not (i.e. I'm not looking for opinions or pizzing contests about what plane he needs) what are the practicalities of learning to fly in a twin? Is it even possible?

I seriously don't know.
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It has been done. The late comedian Danny Kaye comes to mind, but I am sure that there have been others.

Bob Gardner
 
One option would be a PA-24-180 which is basically the same wing and planform as the twinkie but with only 1 engine bolted to the nose. Same switches and buttons just only 1 of them.

That way when you get to the twinkie he has a bunch of retract time. I'd probably get solo'd in a C-172 first just so that those student landings are QUITE as hard on the gear since the Comanche gear likes to crack on the left trunion.

Check out ICS if he's really interested in learning to fly in a Comanche, oh ya and I own one too :)
 
I would recommend starting out on a SE to learn the basics of handling a aircraft before moving over to the twin. SE are more forgiving then a ME. Plus insurance will be higher for him. The costs of maintaining a ME over SE will at least be doubled.


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No dog in this ****ing match, but I know someone who started in a Cessna 310 and went immediately to work for a regional airline and never had a single-engine rating. Been flying for a major for a couple of decades now. Hasn't set foot in a light twin in that long, either.

It was expensive but the person budgeted for it and didn't care, they wanted the multi hours from day one. Was a girl, too. And a long time ago when girls weren't much seen at the airport.

She knew what she wanted to do, and she did it. She also didn't care what the Internet or anyone else said about it back then, even though the Internet was still mostly dial-up. Ha.
 
denverpilot said:
No dog in this ****ing match, but I know someone who started in a Cessna 310 and went immediately to work for a regional airline and never had a single-engine rating. Been flying for a major for a couple of decades now. Hasn't set foot in a light twin in that long, either.

It was expensive but the person budgeted for it and didn't care, they wanted the multi hours from day one. Was a girl, too. And a long time ago when girls weren't much seen at the airport.

She knew what she wanted to do, and she did it. She also didn't care what the Internet or anyone else said about it back then, even though the Internet was still mostly dial-up. Ha.
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What year did this happen and who was the underwriter?
 
You can train in anything as long as your wallet is thick enough
 
denverpilot said:
No dog in this ****ing match, but I know someone who started in a Cessna 310 and went immediately to work for a regional airline and never had a single-engine rating. Been flying for a major for a couple of decades now. Hasn't set foot in a light twin in that long, either.

It was expensive but the person budgeted for it and didn't care, they wanted the multi hours from day one. Was a girl, too. And a long time ago when girls weren't much seen at the airport.

She knew what she wanted to do, and she did it. She also didn't care what the Internet or anyone else said about it back then, even though the Internet was still mostly dial-up. Ha.
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Pretty sure everyone said that you can learn to fly a twin without touching a SE. People just aren't recommending doing so for various reasons. But it's just that, a recommendation.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Grum.Man said:
As cheap as twins are now I would pay cash and take the chance with no insurance. At least until I had acquired enough time to get a decent rate.
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That is a valid point for someone who is young and has no assets, but for someone like the OP describes, I suspect insurance would be an important consideration.

I asked the question because in 2007 when I was working on my ME rating (already a private pilot), I looked into buying a Twin Comanche to do my training in. I gave up on the idea after Avemco and another company refused to quote me.
 
Fearless Tower said:
That is a valid point for someone who is young and has no assets, but for someone like the OP describes, I suspect insurance would be an important consideration.

I asked the question because in 2007 when I was working on my ME rating (already a private pilot), I looked into buying a Twin Comanche to do my training in. I gave up on the idea after Avemco and another company refused to quote me.
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It took a lot of searching for me to find a decent deal on insurance for the Venture. I had no complex, or HP time and only 170 hours total time. I was very surprised by how different each quote was. I saved up to 10 hours of training and over 2k dollars by searching around.
 
Fearless Tower said:
What year did this happen and who was the underwriter?
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Mid 90s. She owned the airplane and probably didn't bother to insure it would be my guess. Or didn't insure it until she hit minimums. I don't remember which instructor(s) she used but there were a'plenty who also wanted multi time back then and also wouldn't care about the insurance. She flew the hell out of that thing and sold it.
 
liability only is normally pretty cheap even for a low time pilot, hull coverage is a different story.
bob
 
unsafervguy said:
liability only is normally pretty cheap even for a low time pilot, hull coverage is a different story.
bob
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True, but that is IF they will quote you in the first place.

In 2007, with a PPL already, I couldn't even get liability. Maybe if I had spent more time hunting, I might have found someone willing, but two rejections was enough to convince me that it wasn't the greatest idea.
 
Fearless Tower said:
True, but that is IF they will quote you in the first place.

In 2007, with a PPL already, I couldn't even get liability. Maybe if I had spent more time hunting, I might have found someone willing, but two rejections was enough to convince me that it wasn't the greatest idea.
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Part of your problem could have been that you were trying to get insured in a Twin Comanche. An Aztec or something similar would likely have been much easier.

I've got a friend who owns two twins (one of them tailwheel too) and has no multi and no instrument ratings. He hasn't indicated that insuring them has been a problem, he and a couple other pilots are named on the policy. At some point he might eventually get around to getting a multi rating but until then the other guys fly the planes and give him a little dual every now and then.
 
mondtster said:
Part of your problem could have been that you were trying to get insured in a Twin Comanche. An Aztec or something similar would likely have been much easier.
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That is indeed true....but the OP was asking about a Twin Comanche.
 
coloradobluesky said:
Twins are about triple the cost of a single per hour of flight sad to say....
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Sure, if you are comparing a C-152 to C-310. If you are comparing a Lance to a Seneca, Comanche to Twin Comanche, Bonanza to Baron, i.e. like aircraft, then not even close. A Twinkie is about $30-40 an hour more to operate than a single Comanche.
 
back when i bought my T/C i had about 30hr multi and 0 T/C time. had no problems getting insurance for it, including hull. I did have a comm/multi and a MEI though.
bob
 
Fearless Tower said:
True, but that is IF they will quote you in the first place.

In 2007, with a PPL already, I couldn't even get liability. Maybe if I had spent more time hunting, I might have found someone willing, but two rejections was enough to convince me that it wasn't the greatest idea.
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I'd bet if the student and instructor went to the insurance company with a well thought out written training plan, it would be a lot more palatable to the underwriters.

Other than the underwriters who require 10 hours of dual in an Ag Cat for coverage. ;)
 
You could also do it it a B747....

That doesn't mean it's a smart idea.
 
Kritchlow said:
You could also do it it a B747....

That doesn't mean it's a smart idea.
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Hmmm. Could you?

(I'm digging around here trying to figure out if you could take an initial private checkride in something that required a type rating... Maybe you could... But not sure...)

It looks to me like a type rating may be added to a private certificate, but not conducted simultaneously, if I'm reading Part 61 correctly.
 
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