Learn to Turn

I get that, but it seems like unnecessarily confusing the issue. If the purpose is to make people think, it does do that, however.

Yes, getting folks to think! I'm not sure how it confuses the issue, though, because ultimately the shape and quality of the arc are dictated by what the pilot chooses to do (or not do) with the elevator. Once banked, setting the elevator in position "X" will result in a turn with characteristics "A, B, C."

Perhaps the next question should be "what difference does it make?" (for dramatic effect, say that with the frustrated indignation of a former Sec of State being grilled by Congress).

The reason it's important for pilots to become acutely aware of what the controls do:

  1. More fatal accidents resulting from LOC-I than the next five accident categories combined.
  2. More LOC-I fatalities occurring while maneuvering than in any other flight phase.
  3. Pilots falling prey to the same types of LOC-I accidents over and over again.

If the turn is so obvious in its simplicity, how come pilots fall out of it with regularity, often with fatal results? What is going on during the overshot turn from base to final, or the engine failure on climb out with the attempted turnback, that causes LOC-I stall/spin fatalities?

My experience: lack of understanding of what the controls really do, which becomes most obvious during unusual situations. A pilot's internal dialogue during an overshoot on final:

I've overshot, but I don't want to go around. I can't steepen the bank because I was told never to exceed 30 degrees in the pattern. I guess I'll add inside rudder to speed up the turn.

In response, the nose of the airplane slices inward and downward through the horizon line.

I've got to get my nose up! Pull on the elevator.

In response, the turn tightens as G goes up and speed goes down -- after all, that's exactly what the elevator does.

It's getting worse! Pull HARDER!

Bingo, accelerated stall/spin from a banked, nose-low attitude, at a speed higher than the wings-level stall speed practiced ad nauseam for the check ride.

---

But what if the pilot knew with all his/her being that, as Langewiesche and FAA and many others know, "the elevator pulls the nose around the turn"? Couple that knowledge with the knowledge that the elevator controls AoA.

Same scenario, assume still no go around. Internal dialogue:

Well, I screwed that turn up and overshot. Let's see, I could simply remain in this same exact turn and teardrop back to the centerline. I might have to increase power to reduce my rate of descent during the longer turn.

That could be a pretty safe option, provided there is altitude and distance to the runway for it.

I could steepen the turn with coordinated aileron and rudder, but I'll have to be mindful of how much pull I have available for the turn vis-a-vis the increased stall speed. Might also have to add some power to reduce the rate of descent.

Another safe option perhaps, if the conditions are right.

I can tighten the turn with some additional aft elevator, being mindful of the increased stall speed at this bank. Might have to add some power, too.

Another safe option provided the wing can tolerate additional G in its current energy state.

Ultimately, if it's that far off, just go around and set it up better the next time.

Whereas in the first scenario leading to the accelerated stall/spin, the pilot made exactly the inputs required for a stall/spin. They were not the proper inputs for a turn. In the other scenarios, the pilot knew exactly what the options were, and knew without a doubt what the outcome of each and every input would be.

Remember: 1-in-4 pilots think the rudder turns the airplane. Most think its the ailerons (talk about faulty thinking, consider the engine failure turn back maneuver: "I'll bank the wings, that'll take care of the turn. Now all I have to do is pull back on the elevator to hold altitude until I get turned around ... stall ... spin ... dead.)

That's why this is important.
 
Henning's got it. Vector quantity. In the turn the vertical gets divided into the vertical and horizontal. Just like in a helicopter when you bank. The horizontal component is what turns the aircraft.

Also, if a pilot doesn't know that increasing back pressure in a bank will result in an increase AOA and possibly stall at slow speed, they have no business flying an aircraft. I'd say most pilots already know this though. When people panic, their instinct is to pull to avoid the ground.
 
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Henning's got it. Vector quantity. In the turn the vertical gets divided into the vertical and horizontal. Just like in a helicopter when you bank. The horizontal component is what turns the aircraft.
I can see this point of view, especially since this is the way that it is conventionally taught, but I can also see Rich's point of view. He is just using a different frame of reference where "vertical" and "horizontal" don't have as much meaning. Read post #16 where he considers any change in the flightpath a "turn" even if it has no horizontal component, a loop or the flare as examples.
 
I can see this point of view, especially since this is the way that it is conventionally taught, but I can also see Rich's point of view. He is just using a different frame of reference where "vertical" and "horizontal" don't have as much meaning. Read post #16 where he considers any change in the flightpath a "turn" even if it has no horizontal component, a loop or the flare as examples.

I’m trying to learn from this potentially philosophical debate. Here’s my take away…

The dispute, if there is one, seems to flow from the fact that the “wing causes turns” camp flows from the perspective that “turns” equate to curved flight paths that cause changes in heading and the fact that banked wings are necessary for there to be a horizontal component of lift that, with weathervaning, is "turning" the plane in that manner.

The “elevator causes turns” camp flows from the perspective that “turns” more broadly equate to curved flight paths (including but not limited to curved flight paths that cause changes in heading), and it is the elevator position that directly modulates wing lift and thus modulates the flight path to be curved in one direction, or the other, or not curved at all, even to the point that if the wings are banked, the elevator can increase, decrease, or even change the direction of wing lift such that the elevator can sharpen, negate, or completely oppose the “heading turn” that would otherwise occur due to banked wings.

Do I have anything correct?
 
I guess we have no need for ailerons anymore. I'll just keep jacking with the elevator to go from 180 to 90.
 
Interesting discussion. Thanks, Rich.

I can't do it in our airplane, but I believe you could fly an airplane like Rich's Super D or a Pitts at knife edge and the aircraft could be flown to just move horizontally across the ground without the nose changing heading. That would be the horizontal component of lift on the wings. It would take elevator to actually "pull" the airplane around to change heading. This is probably wrong because it is the way I look at it :).
 
Remember: 1-in-4 pilots think the rudder turns the airplane. Most think its the ailerons (talk about faulty thinking, consider the engine failure turn back maneuver: "I'll bank the wings, that'll take care of the turn. Now all I have to do is pull back on the elevator to hold altitude until I get turned around ... stall ... spin ... dead.)
But anyone who thinks they can hold altitude by pulling back with their only engine failed shouldn't be flying airplanes. And you do need to bank the wings in order to turn back.
 
I can see this point of view, especially since this is the way that it is conventionally taught, but I can also see Rich's point of view. He is just using a different frame of reference where "vertical" and "horizontal" don't have as much meaning. Read post #16 where he considers any change in the flightpath a "turn" even if it has no horizontal component, a loop or the flare as examples.

Yeah in a loop the elevator is going to modulate that pitch rate or you could say vertical turn rate. If you're wrapped into an 80 degree horizontal turn (overhead), then sure, I'd say the elevator is controlling most of that turn rate through the pitching of the nose. If you're doing 20-30 degree turns in the pattern, I think the horizontal component of the wing is doing the majority of the turn rate.
 
I think its much like being able to ride a bicycle, with virtually NO understanding of the physics of it.

Or even walk, falling from one leg to another with, again, zero thought about the physics.

It's nice to be able to visualize how an airplane turns, and you certainly have to be able to address (and teach, in some cases) the basics involved, but when you're actually flying it all goes out the window and you "Just Do It".™

Or at least I do! ;)
 
If I'm straight an level, I am there because I have set the elevator to make it so. I can also be straight and level at 140 mph in my Decathlon and decide to perform a vertical turn (i.e., loop) first by pulling about +3.5 G on the elevator to bend the flightpath upward (the climbing part of the turn), then continuing to pull the elevator to bend the flight path back around to level flight (the descending part of the turn). Upon reaching level flight again, I release the aft elevator and re-establish level flight (a straight line).

Elevator dictates flightpath, and flightpath is either a line or a curve. From the three-dimensional view of flying, the airplane does not need to be banked first in order to turn/follow a curve. Did you watch the video yet?
I think the issue is the frame of reference. If you're going to call a loop a "turn," then it's a 90* banked turn in the vertical, instead of horizontal, axis. You didn't use aileron to get there because you were already there, but it's still lift off the wing that's bending the flightpath. The elevator just increases the AOA of the wing. Rudder and aileron will turn the plane even if you hold the elevator still. Of course you can overcome this turning with various control inputs.
 
Henning, Rich is talking about aircraft. Comparing the flight characteristics to a parachut is comparing apples and eggs.....

This is a discussion designed to make or invite airplane pilots think about how they maneuver and handle unusual situations. LOC issues.
 
Henning, Rich is talking about aircraft. Comparing the flight characteristics to a parachut is comparing apples and eggs.....
.
They are exactly the same, both turn using the horizontal component of lift, just that one of them doesn't have an elevator.:idea:
 
From the FAA Airplane Flying Handbook:







All four primary controls are used in close coordination when making turns. Their functions are as follows.



• The ailerons bank the wings and so determine the rate of turn at any given airspeed.




Which is flat wrong. Argh that book drives me nuts.

Roll to knife edge flight and hold it. (Yes, you'll need to push on the elevator and give top-side rudder.)

Roll back level.

Did the ailerons "determine a rate of turn"? No.

They determined the rate at which the aircraft *banked*.

No turn required, nor commanded by the ailerons.
 
They are exactly the same, both turn using the horizontal component of lift, just that one of them doesn't have an elevator.:idea:

Exactly. Same thing with a helicopter. There's no elevator "pulling the nose" in the turn. You roll in, increase collective with bank and the aircraft turns because of the horizontal component of lift. You could pull back on the cyclic and increase the turn rate simply because of an increase in pitching moment and slight increase in total lift but it's still the horizontal component that is the primary driving force in a turn.
 
You guys didn't get what I meant. The discussion is about airplanes and how they are controlled to produce curved flight...
How helicopters and parachutes or delta wing weight shift or... Are controlled to turn are not a part of the maneuvering that is intended as the subject.

Honestly, y'all can pick the fly **** out of the pepper to a faithywell.
 
They are exactly the same, both turn using the horizontal component of lift, just that one of them doesn't have an elevator.:idea:

It uses weight-shift for the same purpose.

The argumenf here is mostly semantics. When you turn your car, does the wheel, steering knuckle, tire, road, rack, or steering wheel do it? The answer is they all do at one level or another, but the input you provide to do so is the steering wheel.
 
It uses weight-shift for the same purpose.

The argumenf here is mostly semantics. When you turn your car, does the wheel, steering knuckle, tire, road, rack, or steering wheel do it? The answer is they all do at one level or another, but the input you provide to do so is the steering wheel.

Bingo:thumbsup:

"Man has no understanding. He can be taught a few simple tricks... nothing more."~Dr. Zaius :D
______________

My limited understanding is, it's the horizontal component of lift and weathervaning of the tail....which the elevator becomes the primary "control" (AOA manipulator).
In other words, you control the quality of the turn produced by the wing, with the elevator.

How's that?
 
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It uses weight-shift for the same purpose.

The argumenf here is mostly semantics. When you turn your car, does the wheel, steering knuckle, tire, road, rack, or steering wheel do it? The answer is they all do at one level or another, but the input you provide to do so is the steering wheel.

You forgot the power steering pump. :)
 
BTW, I could make the same comment about the parachute crowd since they have no elevator.

I believe a parachute turns due to a couple[1] whose two forces are oriented 90 degrees to the direction of flight, while an airplane turns due to a couple whose two forces are oriented 0 degrees to the direction of flight. The origin of the couples in the two cases aren't related at all. So there appears to be little of value to be learned about flying airplanes from flying parachutes (or any weight shift aircraft.)

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Couple_(mechanics)
 
Bank and pull. Done. Thread over. You're welcome.

:rolleyes2:
 
Bank and pull. Done. Thread over. You're welcome.

:rolleyes2:

right you are.

We used to call it "bank and yank". The job of the rudder is to keep the tail lined up with the nose of the plane.
When you get too far over the rudder and elevator swap jobs.

It's not that complicated.
 
It would be much easier to understand all of this if pilots simply got their tailwheel endorsements.













:D
 
Good video, thanks for posting.
Had me opening my copy of "Stick and Rudder" after watching so I could look for other things explained a different way (like the tail surface being an upside down airfoil opposite that of the main wings, pulling down not up)
 
Rich- Serious though tongue in cheek

Is this a doctoral thesis?
 
Rich- Serious though tongue in cheek

Is this a doctoral thesis?

Hey Jaybird180. In its broadest sense, "the elevator pulls (or pushes) the nose of an airplane through arced flight" is too simple and too short to qualify. And I would be plagiarizing from Stick and Rudder and other wise tomes.

Others here, however, continue to try to justify their points of view by becoming more and more complicated with overly convoluted discussions about vectors, parachutes, and other flying things. Even going so far as to suggest that "power pulls the nose around the turn" when gliders turn just fine without it, and Duane Cole used to fly an entire air show act with the prop stopped in his Decathlon.

Others toss out the "I can turn with just the rudder" and similarly irrelevant revelations. Sort of like saying "I can drive a nail through a 2x4 with a rock" -- true, and there might be rare times when you have do that, but is that the best tool for the job all other things considered? Those gambits distract from the thesis of the video.

Our flightpath is either a line or a curve -- simple, indisputable. Doesn't matter if you call the curve an arc, a turn, loop, whifferdill, whatever. A curve is a curve. It might be useful to use the word "turn" to distinguish that form of curve from "loop" as a way to identify some of the other conditions for performing the maneuver, but it's still a curving flightpath. One can correctly substitute "horizontal loop" for turn and "vertical turn" for loop, or say "constant G turn" vs. "variable G turn" as other ways to distinguish. Still gonna be flying a curve regardless.

What seems to be lost on some is that the pilot has direct control over AoA and thus dictates where all those vectors will point, what their magnitudes will be, and even which side of the wing from which the vectors will originate (within the aerodynamic, structural, and energy operating limits of the airplane, of course).

That's how come in the video I was able to get the airplane to start and stop turning in both the horizontal and vertical -- because I commanded the airplane to do so with the elevator. It's also why I can do a multitude of different "turns" starting with the same bank angle, as seen in the video: climbing, level, descending, tilted inside loop, chandelle. Could have also done a tilted outside loop, or barrel roll. That's a lot of different arcs all starting with the same bank angle. The "vector drawers" will have a very hard time rationalizing all of those realities; on the other hand, all can be explained in fundamentally the same way.

Saying that the "horizontal component of lift is doing that" sounds eerily similar to "you didn't build that" when the reality is the pilot, using the elevator, commands all those various types of "turns" to happen. It is the pilot's choice of elevator action that manipulates the vectors to accomplish what the pilot desires.

The video also clearly shows rolling with no turning vis-a-vis a 4-pt. roll. Where's the sacred horizontal component of lift to turn the airplane there? I made it disappear by doing something with the elevator because having that vector would not have been useful to the outcome I desired.

As for the need for ailerons -- they certainly are useful, and they provide the pilot with many more options for curved flight that would be difficult otherwise. But in the overall scheme of curving the flightpath, they are not needed. In fact, one could put landing gear on the top and the bottom of an aircraft, take away the ailerons completely, and the pilot could still take off from the runway, do a five-eights loop "turnaround" and land upside down on the runway. No ailerons needed. If you don't believe it, Google Craig Hoskings and Pitts. But I digress.

The video speaks for itself. For those who come here with a learner's mindset, I've provided enough food for thought for a while. Be safe out there...
 
It is either the horizontal component of lift or 'the controls' that turn an aircraft. Pick one.
 
As for the need for ailerons -- they certainly are useful, and they provide the pilot with many more options for curved flight that would be difficult otherwise. But in the overall scheme of curving the flightpath, they are not needed. In fact, one could put landing gear on the top and the bottom of an aircraft, take away the ailerons completely, and the pilot could still take off from the runway, do a five-eights loop "turnaround" and land upside down on the runway. No ailerons needed. If you don't believe it, Google Craig Hoskings and Pitts. But I digress.
I can accept that the elevator controls the turn if you define "turn" as "curving flightpath". However, without aileron (or rudder) input the airplane will only turn perpendicular to the direction the wings are oriented at that time. This is not all that useful. I understand your example of taking off and landing on the same runway with elevator only, but what if the runway you wanted to land on was oriented 90 degrees to the runway you took off on? You couldn't accomplish that only with elevator. In conventional words you would need to "turn" the airplane using the aileron and rudder to line up with the crossing runway. I think this is where some of the confusion lies. What words would you use to describe this besides "turn"?
 
It is either the horizontal component of lift or 'the controls' that turn an aircraft. Pick one.

Since the thread is titled "Learn to Turn," not "Learn about Turns," the ultimate focus would seem to be proper use of controls.

If I understand Stowell's point, it is that ailerons and rudders (to a first order approximation) should be treated primarily as attitude controls, and only the elevator affects the flight path.

I believe most people who are asked to imagine an airplane flying in a large enclosed sphere in deep space that is in freefall would be able to figure out the actual affect of each set of controls.
 
I think what Rich is trying to convey here is this:

When flying straight and level you are doing that by having the ELEVATOR maintain that ATTITUDE/ANGLE OF ATTACK that will result in no change in altitude or heading.

If we can agree on this then we can agree that the next logical thing the ELEVATOR does is to allow us to climb and descend from straight and level flight.

Once we've agreed on this then we can take that thought and climb and descend through the horizontal plane (heading). Yes it does require banking to get into that turn and yes the wings are providing the component of lift which now has been applied to the horizontal. However the ELEVATOR is doing the work of maintaining the condition of the turn. As the ELEVATOR was doing the work of maintaining altitude/angle of attack to maintain level flight previously.

In a turn we can say that the ground speed is being applied on the plane that is directly opposite of the airplanes center of lift. If we think about it this way then we are not traveling over the ground but traveling over this plane that exists directly opposite the aircrafts center of lift.

Yes it is really the way you look at it. I mean if one considers aircraft like the B-2 Spirit, we see how relative this concept is. But what it does is allow for a more intricate understanding of how we are manipulating about the x, y, z axises.

Hope I haven't confused more people.

*DISCLAIMER - I do not make any claim to expertise here. This is simply my interpretation and there is a high probability that I got it wrong.*

P.S. - I do not think that a helicopter can be included in this conversation because the method it uses to turn is radically different from an airplane in that the entire plane of the rotor will shift. For that to be comparable, airplanes would have to have wings that can change AoA irrelevant of the airframe. Something like wings that pivot where they attach to the fuselage.
 
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A helicopter can be thought of as having a solid disk of lift. That disk of lift is tilted horizontal to turn, same as everything else.
 
I think most pilots can figure out what the controls do but the whole thing is more of a semantics problem. Sure the elevator is used to "turn" the airplane in a curved flightpath but most people also use the word "turn" to describe reorienting the plane of the wings so they can turn in the desired direction.

Of course merely reorienting the wings doesn't necessarily produce a turn but it is required in order to get the turn in the correct direction.

Most people would also not describe entering a climb straight ahead or even a loop as a "turn" but I see where Rich is coming from there.

As far as the wings are concerned, the wings produce the lift which produce the turn (curved flightpath) but the lift on the wings is controlled by the elevator.
 
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A helicopter can be thought of as having a solid disk of lift. That disk of lift is tilted horizontal to turn, same as everything else.

I couldn't agree that it is the same as everything else. If that were the case then the entire wing could be tilted horizontal to turn irrespective of the airframe. There is that difference that you must acknowledge. On helicopters the rotors tilt then the frame follows. Here the rotors act as a wing, elevator, ailerons all in one.
 
I couldn't agree that it is the same as everything else. If that were the case then the entire wing could be tilted horizontal to turn irrespective of the airframe. There is that difference that you must acknowledge. On helicopters the rotors tilt then the frame follows. Here the rotors act as a wing, elevator, ailerons all in one.
And the lift vector tilts and the aircraft turns. Same same. When my paraglider turns I follow it through stringy little lines, does that mean it is turning using magic?
 
I couldn't agree that it is the same as everything else. If that were the case then the entire wing could be tilted horizontal to turn irrespective of the airframe. There is that difference that you must acknowledge. On helicopters the rotors tilt then the frame follows. Here the rotors act as a wing, elevator, ailerons all in one.

The tilting of the rotor is only to get established the bank angle just like ailerons are to get an airplane established in a bank angle. The disk doesn't stay tilted in the turn. You center the cyclic once established, just like an airplane pilot would center the yoke / stick. You then adjust from center for minor changes in AOB.

The same principle still applies. The vertical component counters the weight of the aircraft and the horizontal keeps the aircraft turning. Increase collective and increase the turn rate. Pull back on the cyclic and increase the turn rate further.
 
Strange video. It starts out stating that GA pilots often crash during a turn. Then it strangely brings up the academic question of "What turns the airplane?" This is followed by a demonstration of all the different combinations of control inputs and their results. I guess an attempt to prove answer to the question of what turns a plane. However, it's clear as mud.

What was the point of the video again?

Not to be too critical, but if the point of the video is teach pilots how to avoid crashing in a turn, it fails. I think it was lesson one of the PP course, that you have to apply back pressure to maintain altitude and rudder to stay coordinated. Every certificated pilot knows this. Who really cares what steers the airplane as long as it gets correctly steered?

How does this video and all the conversation that follows (admittedly I didn't read it all as it became the usual academic ****ing contest) supposed to instruct a pilot how not to crash in an emergency turn? The large number of accident stall/spin accidents that happen might actually suggest that there is too much use of the elevator out there.

There is nothing wrong with this video per say, but just edit the bit about pilots crashing in a turn in the beginning and not knowing how to turn and make the video what it really is. An attempt to demonstrate the academics of flight controls of the traditional aircraft. I might suggest adding power point, or animations to further the point. The video cockpit footage really doesn't illustrate the story very completely.
 
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