Lear down TEB

maybe my eyes are playing tricks on me but in that security cam pic it appears there's a pedestrian not too far out in front of the nose.

edit- strike that. I watched the video in motion rather than the still shot. It was my eyes.
 
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denverpilot said:
Probably airspace coordination issues with the surrounding airports... it's one thing to have folks circle, it's another to flip the airport around and have to have the other nearby airports also flip for their "optimum" traffic setup out there. But that's just a guess from watching how they coordinated those flips long, long, ago... (our telecom gear was used for that...)...
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Fearless Tower said:
Pretty much what DenverPilot said. It's all about the airspace coordination and traffic flow. TEB is nestled near EWR, JFK and LGA and the majority of private jet traffic going to the NYC area goes into TEB. So ATC has to get all that traffic in there without disrupting the flows for the big airports.
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Yep, exactly as my friend who used to work TEB Tower explained it to me. I just heard about this crash tonight from a guy at work. RIP to the crew.

Damn, this one really hits home because that's where I got my wings back in 1998. Definitely one of the more challenging places for a new student to learn, but in hindsight, I'm glad to have had that experience. With all of the corporate jet traffic, touch & go's were out of the question, so my CFI taught me how to "thread the needle" navigating to nearby Morristown (MMU) and Caldwell (CDW) without busting the Bravo. There, we practiced landings as long as we wanted. I actually soloed at MMU.
 
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Everskyward said:
It's almost always busy because of the proximity to Manhattan. As others have mentioned, their procedures are somewhat complex because of the airspace and surrounding airports. The ramps are usually congested. I have flown Lear 35s and other airplanes into KTEB numerous times. RIP.
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So busy that...... it wasn't until after I was introduced to other Class-D airports, that I realized contacting Clearance Delivery and getting a squawk code prior to taxi (VFR), was NOT the norm ;)
 
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Having flown, and continue to fly the ILS RWY6 (see attached) circle to RWY 1, I would like to comment (not speculate). This procedure can be and is safely flown often. One of the most important factors is when you start the circle maneuver. Often you will hear the tower state "start your circle at Torby". If this is not followed, the more challenging the maneuver will be. Another important factor is the a strong westerly wind (tailwinds). If this is not taken into account, you can find yourself needing a greater rate of turn to properly align with the runway.

Unfortunately, knowing the wind direction / speed and hearing the controller prompt the crew to start a turn is not enough data to come to a conclusion. But I don't blame the group in trying to make sense of this.

Kevin
 

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One thing I'm noticing - it looks as though the plane recently moved from the west to the east based off of FlightAware. When I say recently I mean within a couple of weeks of the crash. It was still listed as registered to folks out west.

It makes me wonder if the pilots were either new to the aircraft itself (perhaps Lear 35 time but not time in that specific aircraft) or new to the area, and not familiar with the local airports and often rushed procedures that occur in that corridor. Either one of those could contribute to risk factors.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
One thing I'm noticing - it looks as though the plane recently moved from the west to the east based off of FlightAware. When I say recently I mean within a couple of weeks of the crash. It was still listed as registered to folks out west.

It makes me wonder if the pilots were either new to the aircraft itself (perhaps Lear 35 time but not time in that specific aircraft) or new to the area, and not familiar with the local airports and often rushed procedures that occur in that corridor. Either one of those could contribute to risk factors.
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https://www.facebook.com/jeff.alino

This appears to be the reported pilot. Posts from several dates show same type aircraft(s).
 
So is it really easy to stall a Lear jet in a bank?
 
mtuomi said:
Just as easy as stalling any other plane. Same factor applies.
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Yea understood...just seems like you'd have to be quite distracted to end up in a situation like that...but what do I know!
 
mtuomi said:
Just as easy as stalling any other plane. Same factor applies.
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cept the speed is higher, circling to land in a difficult situation, wider turning radii cause of the higher speed....oh, we're gonna blow thru the final ....gotta tighten it up a bit.....then come the G's.....eye's are out side looking for the numbers....all while holding altitude at this low circle to land deal, speed bleeds, then bam.....it's done.

Keep in mind....the last thing they wanted to be is "fast" and land long. Most other planes can take an extra 20 kts in that and slow over the fence landing fine.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
One thing I'm noticing - it looks as though the plane recently moved from the west to the east based off of FlightAware. When I say recently I mean within a couple of weeks of the crash. It was still listed as registered to folks out west.

It makes me wonder if the pilots were either new to the aircraft itself (perhaps Lear 35 time but not time in that specific aircraft) or new to the area, and not familiar with the local airports and often rushed procedures that occur in that corridor. Either one of those could contribute to risk factors.
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Plane was owned by a couple in MT and leased to the charter operator.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
Circle to land in a high performance plane is a bit more of a hand full.
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No doubt, but for light plane flyers like this group to think they are immune is dangerous...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
No worries...the little plan drivers have an AoA to save them. :)
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As you well know it's more likely the jet drivers that do... another good video. Took a lot to cause this one.


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CC268 said:
I'm pretty familiar with this as we purposely did some base to final stalls -> spin in my aerobatic course...at altitude of course
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That's high on my to do list! What kind of airplane did they use? I may have a decathalon i might be able to do it in.


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gsengle said:
That's high on my to do list! What kind of airplane did they use? I may have a decathalon i might be able to do it in.


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Great Lakes! Biplane. It was honestly pretty damn hard to get it to spin in that situation...even with a bunch of rudder it didn't want to..it wanted to fly! But I can imagine jets aren't friendly at all when it comes to the same situation
 
CC268 said:
I can imagine jets aren't friendly at all when it comes to the same situation
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Correct. The earlier Lears had virtually no natural stall warning and therefore required stick shakers and pushers. Even the 35, which IIRC had "turbulators" or some such bump on the leading edge to warn of an impending stall, could wind up on its back in a heartbeat if it got too slow. The stall warning system had to be flight checked after calibration and I know of pilots who were quite impressed by the sudden roll to inverted when things weren't adjusted quite right. Small planes by comparison don't seem so indifferent to survival.

dtuuri
 
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If they started the circle a mile out, instead of at Tirby,
Checkout_my_Six said:
Circle to land in a high performance plane is a bit more of a hand full.
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Yes, but nothing a trained crew in the airplane shouldn't be able to handle.
It's not *that* hard after doing a couple on the sim.
 
Kritchlow said:
If they started the circle a mile out, instead of at Tirby,

Yes, but nothing a trained crew in the airplane shouldn't be able to handle.
It's not *that* hard after doing a couple on the sim.
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It's worth mentioning that if you (not that you don't know all this) keep the ball in the middle and never bank over 30° this kind of accident (assuming it was not mechanical) probably can never happen. Full flaps at Vref+10 min should make a comfortable circling approach in a Lear. If it's at night and/or an unfamiliar field tell 'em you want to overfly the airport before breaking into a circle. It's a lot easier to judge your turn radius.

dtuuri
 
dtuuri said:
It's worth mentioning that if you (not that you don't know all this) keep the ball in the middle and never bank over 30° this kind of accident (assuming it was not mechanical) probably can never happen. Full flaps at Vref+10 min should make a comfortable circling approach in a Lear. If it's at night and/or an unfamiliar field tell 'em you want to overfly the airport before breaking into a circle. It's a lot easier to judge your turn radius.

dtuuri
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I agree with the speed... that's exactly what we used... That said, I never used the rudder in flight in a jet unless it's an engine failure or crosswind landing.
 
Kritchlow said:
I agree with the speed... that's exactly what we used... That said, I never used the rudder in flight in a jet unless it's an engine failure or crosswind landing.
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Yeah, I was speakin' to the non-yaw damper equipped among us.

dtuuri
 
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You would think that short of the scheduled pilot on the flight being alive somewhere and an unknown person died on the flight that they know who the pilot was. I find it odd that they do not seem to have even released the name of the pilot scheduled to fly. I understand not wanting to upset family members but without evidence to the contrary regarding who was onboard, there is no reason to withhold the name. If the scheduled pilot is nowhere to be found, it is fairly certain that the burned beyond recognition body is him.

Odd indeed.
 
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