Last few feet of the flare

Jaybird180

Jaybird180

Final Approach
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Jaybird180
I make pretty decent landings. I can set it down at the touchdown zone of my choosing. Simulated short field is not much of a challenge anymore, it’s just plain fun.

But I think I can do something better.

I’m in the last few feet of the decent; the stall horn comes on during the round-out and flare. I get the nose where I think it should be and hold. I begin feeling for the ground while making final corrections for alignment and position. I do okay and feel the wheels of the tricycle gear make terra firma.

Since I have plenty of elevator left, I can use aerodynamic braking to continue slowing. And this is what I can do better.

Should I continue using this technique or should I work on timing the touchdown to coincide with the yoke being full aft?
 
*** editorial: I don't like the term "Flare" as it presupposes some unique manuever just in landing*****

Once the airplane is in level flight a foot or so above the ground, your job is to maintain that level flight using ever-increasing angle of attack.

Typically this results in a nose-high attitude in a nosewheel airplane. Once the mains are down, continue a steady pull back -- the nose will eventually drop on its own (some airplanes need help to avoid a plop on the pavement -- ymmv).

The stall horn should sound but keep in mind it sounds several knots above actual stall.

A "full stall" landing usually results in a plop on the ground. Better a slowest-controllable-airspeed touchdown without an actual aerodynamic stall.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Should I continue using this technique or should I work on timing the touchdown to coincide with the yoke being full aft?
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If you are consistently landing with the stall horn blaring, you are doing well enough. Your excess airspeed at that point is just a few knots. Downside: you may balloon upwards a bit if you haul the nose up further for aerodynamic braking.

If you are striving for test pilot performance on short field landings, you will need to time it so there is no excess airspeed as the wheels kiss the ground. Downside is if you miss your altitude and timing, you will drop it in.

-Skip
 
Dan, I'm not sure I understood your answer. What do I change and what do I keep the same as I'm doing now?
 
Jaybird180 said:
Dan, I'm not sure I understood your answer. What do I change and what do I keep the same as I'm doing now?
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The technique you described is fine for Short Field landings.

As Skip mentioned, you want to be slow at touchdown -- but get too slow and you drop in. That's OK from 6", not so good from 2 feet.
 
Making a habit of holding it off until the elevator hits the stop could make things ugly if you one day had all the seats full. With an aft CG you'll get the nose too high with full elevator deflection and probably strike the tail.

But everything you're doing sounds right. You're not flying it on fast and flat, like so many do. Such bad technique, that is, and hard on tires and the nosegear.

Dan
 
Ron Levy said:
Jaybird, you're doing fine -- don't change a thing.
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Good advice.

Jaybird, reading your original post in this thread it sounds like everything you are doing is just fine. Airspeed control is key during the approach. During the flare just above the ground your objective is to maintain level flight by increasing angle of attack. As the aircraft slows down, a greater angle of attack (more elevator backpressure) will be required to maintain level flight for the airspeed you are at. Keep in mind that the pitch attitude for level flight changes with airspeed so pitch must change (increase) to maintain level flight at slower airspeeds (think slow flight at minimum controllable airspeed).

Once the tires meet the pavement, it is important to keep the nosewheel off using increased elevator backpressure and allowing the nosehweel to slowly meet the runway. The yoke doesn't have to be full aft (and usually shouldn't be prior to the rollout) to make a great landing and as Dan mentioned, a full stall landing will often result in a hard landing if not set up properly. A stabilized, controlled touchdown at minimum controllable airspeed will yield a much more smooth landing.

I think you are doing fine as described.
 
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Agree with Levy.

That being said, when you are in the flare, hold the pitch attitude up and wait for your butt to tell you your are sinking. Then and only then, pitch up a tad more. Hold that until your butt tells you that you are sinking. Then pitch it up again and repeat until chirp chirp chirp. By this time there is almost no aerodynamic braking available. You landed at full stall. Full back elevator helps- but it's not worth a whole lot. Opening the cabin door is likely to do more.

If you are flaring too high, have your CFI high speed taxi (Nose up) for you while you look out the window 2/3rds of the way down the runway. Burn in the sight picture using your peripheral vision, that's where the height cues are.
 
bbchien said:
If you are flaring too high, have your CFI high speed taxi (Nose up) for you while you look out the window 2/3rds of the way down the runway. Burn in the sight picture using your peripheral vision, that's where the height cues are.
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Better yet, get some time in a taildragger. B)

And look right and left once in a while. Too many pilots fixate forward only -- it doesn't hurt to glance down left and right to get a view of how high you are above the ground.
 
Something's wrong with this thread. Everyone is agreeing with each other.
 
HPNPilot1200 said:
Good advice.

Jaybird, reading your original post in this thread it sounds like everything you are doing is just fine. Airspeed control is key during the approach.
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Airspeed, Schmarespeed.

Who cares - as long as you aren't too slow. Fly down to the numbers and set it down. If you are slow enough it will be a three point. If you are faster it is a wheel landing. Just hold the tail in place and set it down when the airplane is ready.

Unless, of course, you have the misfortune of flying one of them things with a nose wheel. Those are hard to land (and I can't help you there).

Sac Arrow said:
Something's wrong with this thread. Everyone is agreeing with each other.
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Feel better now? :wink2:
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Airspeed, Schmarespeed.

Who cares - as long as you aren't too slow.

Unless, of course, you have the misfortune of flying one of them things with a nose wheel. Those are hard to land (and I can't help you there).
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Oh yeah, one of those things with a nose wheel. What are those called again? :crazy:

Precise airspeed control is just one thing I make sure to teach every student in a tricycle gear aircraft since both the Cirrus and Mooney I fly will happily float in ground effect while the runway end gets closer and closer with an extra 10 knots on final (nothing a go around can't fix, but you have to land eventually). It helps when it comes time to upgrade to something with a little more performance or in my case when your primary student is training in an SR20.

Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Feel better now? :wink2:
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No, I don't think we're necessarily disagreeing. Not that agreeing is a bad thing, just slightly abnormal in a thread...are you normally a trend setter? :D
 
Jaybird180 said:


Since I have plenty of elevator left, I can use aerodynamic braking to continue slowing. And this is what I can do better.

Should I continue using this technique or should I work on timing the touchdown to coincide with the yoke being full aft?
Click to expand...
The technique here is very airplane-specific. And varies in the same airplane with weight and/or wind.

Since you say you have plenty of elevator left, I'm guessing you are allowing the mains to touch a a tad faster than you could. Try holding off a tad longer, maybe a tad higher.

Yes, you will experience dropping it in, until you develop the proper sight picture, a tad nose higher, and the feel of the elevator back pressure holding it off a bit longer, and the timing and sound, and the sinking-butt feeling as the airplane gives it up to the wheels as they roll on in full stall with the elevator in the near full back position.

As you practice this precision, you will be able to time this full stall occurrence at exactly a given spot - on the runway. Which allows you to brake the airplane to a full stop in minimum distance.
 
Jaybird180 said:
I make pretty decent landings. I can set it down at the touchdown zone of my choosing. Simulated short field is not much of a challenge anymore, it’s just plain fun.
Click to expand...

When are you making this "choosing"? Are you doing it on final when you know you have it made, or are you doing it on downwind?

The proper way is to call your touchdown spot on downwind, so that there is somewhat of a challenge.

Where you touch down is going to depend on your airspeed on final more than anything else. Set up your flare so that the nose is about one finger below the end of the runway, then just keep it in that same spot while pulling back on the yoke/stick until you touch down.

Once you pass the threshold, its already been decided where your wheels will touch down. The whole thing is more dependent on a coordinated approach, than anything else. Your approach speed is going to be dependent on the type of landing you want and the type of airplane you are flying.

Your not going to hold the nose of a 747 a finger below the end of the runway.

When I was learning to land I was talking to everyone, watching videos, reading, anything I could do to figure it out.

I had a friend who was a little over 90 years old who had been an airline pilot his entire career. I asked him how you go about landing an airplane. He looked at me like I was nuts and said; "You just land the ******** airplane."

John
 
Dan Thomas said:
Sissyplane.

Dan
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I don't mind flying a sissyplane. I suppose anything with wheels, or skis or floats can be considered a sissyplane after one flies by carrying your wings up the hill on your back, then strapping your seat to the wings, lifting your wings with your arms and back, and then running down hill for take off, then for landing just flaring to stop on your feet. Too much work; i'll stick with my sissyplane.
 
I kinda like what I can do with our Robertson STOL equipped 182 "sissyplane"... the "hold the nose off in ground-effect game" can go on for a really long time if you add a touch of power and have a nice long runway to play with.

Get in the flare attitude for landing with the stall horn blaring about 6" off the ground and then push the go lever on the O-470 up just a touch... and when you're about 150' from the taxiway you want to take, pull it off. Squeak. :-)

I went through a short stretch in my primary training years ago where I completely lost the ability to flare at the right height and time. Wise old instructor made me fly 1/2 the runway length in the landing attitude behind the power curve the next time we went up to imprint it into my eyeballs, brain, and butt... including as someone pointed out, with enough time to really look out the side window and see exactly how high up we were... and then set the airplane down.

With the Robby, that old exercise I never forgot, got a whole lot more fun. :goofy:
 
nosehair said:
...and the sinking-butt feeling as the airplane gives it up to the wheels as they roll on in full stall with the elevator in the near full back position.
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Not many airplanes at all will get to stall angle in either the three-point (taildragger) attitude or tailstrike (trike) attitude. The main gear's not long enough. All we're getting is a rapid sink. I've measured the chord angle on 172s and Citabrias and the like in the tail-on-the-ground attitude and it's less than stall angle by some margin. Add to that the fact that the stall is even later when in ground effect.

A true stall would drop the nose, not maintain the attitude while dropping the airplane.

Dan
 
Well, the OP left some openings in his description.

Otherwise it sorta read like: "Everytime I land the wheels gently kiss the ground with nary a squeal. What should I do better?"
 
Well my last night landing was a sqeaker, but that was probably more luck than skill (LOL)
 
dmccormack said:
Well, the OP left some openings in his description.

Otherwise it sorta read like: "Everytime I land the wheels gently kiss the ground with nary a squeal. What should I do better?"
Click to expand...

No squeal? He should apply the brakes just before touchdown. Then he'll get the squeal he's looking for.

Dan
 
Jaybird180 said:
Should I continue using this technique or should I work on timing the touchdown to coincide with the yoke being full aft?
Click to expand...

In a word, no.
Yoke position and airspeed are not directly related. Yoke position and airspeed vary based on CG. Aft CG will render a specific airspeed with the yoke farther forward then with a forward CG. Additionally, your Vso will be higher, and the elevator will have more authority.

You're doing just fine. If you want to improve, get some people in the back seat with the right front seat empty (run a W&B to verify you're in weight and CG parameters), THEN go do some landings. You'll see that your control inputs will be quite different. Be careful not to scrape the tail.
Learn to fly the plane under widely varying weights and CGs, and feel what the airplane is telling you. THAT will improve your skills immensely.
 
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Jaybird180 said:
Well my last night landing was a sqeaker, but that was probably more luck than skill (LOL)
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That all depends...was it you or the tires that was sqeaking?:wink2:
 
Dan Thomas said:
Not many airplanes at all will get to stall angle in either the three-point (taildragger) attitude or tailstrike (trike) attitude.

A true stall would drop the nose, not maintain the attitude while dropping the airplane.
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Right, this is true, and I don't mean to imply the airplane is truly stalled in the holding off process, that's what causes the plopping on, or the nose wheel plopping down after a smooth main contact. But I mean the airplane is just beginning the downward sink that would create the stalling angle, if the runway were not there. The timing of wheel contact simultaneously with the initial beginning of the pre-stall sink.
 
If you guys don't mind, I'll throw my minimal post experience into the ring for a minute.

As mentioned above in one post, when your floating just a bit, a touch of power may be all you need to impress the passengers, and another key I found personally is to not stare at the front of the nose. Big Picture, eyes toward the end of the runway.

I'm not a big believer in "if it aint broke, don't fix it", if so, we'd still be cavemen.
 
Jaybird180 said:
I make pretty decent landings. I can set it down at the touchdown zone of my choosing. Simulated short field is not much of a challenge anymore, it’s just plain fun.

But I think I can do something better.

I’m in the last few feet of the decent; the stall horn comes on during the round-out and flare. I get the nose where I think it should be and hold. I begin feeling for the ground while making final corrections for alignment and position. I do okay and feel the wheels of the tricycle gear make terra firma.

Since I have plenty of elevator left, I can use aerodynamic braking to continue slowing. And this is what I can do better.

Should I continue using this technique or should I work on timing the touchdown to coincide with the yoke being full aft?
Click to expand...

If you use up all elevator authority at the moment of touchdown, then you have no room for error, adjustment, or wind shear.

As such, you're doing excellent, better than many. Do exactly as you're doing now, and play in differing wind conditions to make sure you can kick this much A$$ all the time.
 
xaminmo said:
If you use up all elevator authority at the moment of touchdown, then you have no room for error, adjustment, or wind shear.
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You certainly don't have to worry about windshear once your wheels are on the ground. In a lot of airplanes being out of elevator once at touchdown is the ideal configuration.

Windshear really isn't much of an issue in our light piston airplanes. In the heavy iron with long spool up times and lots of energy it is indeed a big deal - hence why the windshear accidents didn't really start happening until the jet came around.
 
jesse said:
You certainly don't have to worry about windshear once your wheels are on the ground. In a lot of airplanes being out of elevator once at touchdown is the ideal configuration.

Windshear really isn't much of an issue in our light piston airplanes. In the heavy iron with long spool up times and lots of energy it is indeed a big deal - hence why the windshear accidents didn't really start happening until the jet came around.
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If your plan is to use it up by the moment of touchdown, and you have something happen 10 feet up, you don't have a whole lot of room to recover before bending your feet.

Though, that could be said for any config and a powerful enough shift or downdraft.
 
xaminmo said:
If your plan is to use it up by the moment of touchdown, and you have something happen 10 feet up, you don't have a whole lot of room to recover before bending your feet.

Though, that could be said for any config and a powerful enough shift or downdraft.
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Doing a "full stall" landing doesn't preclude using good judgment regarding how you make your approach in different wind/gust/shear conditions. Some tailwheel airplanes ARE very close to a true full-stall attitude on a 3-point touchdown (Stearman, J-3 Cub, etc.). I would never say that a 3-point landing in these airplanes would be inappropriate or unsafe due to certain wind conditions (it's a pilot preference in any case).

There are many different ways to vary your approach profile. You don't necessarily have to be precariously slow 10ft. up just because you intend to do a "full-stall" (or close to) landing. You can fly down to the runway at a speed your judgment deems safe before bleeding off speed for a full-stall landing. Or in calmer conditions, you could break your glide and slow down higher (above ground effect) such that there is very little lift left once down to the runway. It's infinitely adjustable, and part of the art of flying.
 
It'd be a little less "art" and more "science" if more aircraft were equipped with AoA indicators. ;)
 
dmccormack said:
Would you be looking at it during round out?

It seems the attitude of the airplane relative to the earth is a pretty good indicator...

:dunno:
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Depends on where it was mounted! :P Got HUD? :D Agreed, it'd be useless low on the panel, out of the peripheral vision of the guy looking out the windscreen.

As far as attitude goes... Attitude of the airplane in gusts/windshear? (I thought that's what these guys had been talking about in the most recent posts.)

Having done the whole "ride the microburst all the way to the ground" thing, which luckily had a runway at the bottom of that ride... the aircraft's attitude to the ground meant little, other than as a general indication of "that's where it should be if things were going normally here."

Attitude was held, power was at full throttle in a 172, and the runway still came up to meet us in grand fashion. CFI took over the controls at about 50'-100' and said, "Stay on these with me, I'll explain later but I want you to see what I'm doing."

Later comments during debrief were, "By the laws of statistics, the chances you'll ever have that happen again to you are pretty damn low, but now you've seen it."

We both sat there staring at each other for a bit. Did I mention his little kids were in the back? I was maybe a flight or two away from the PPASEL checkride.

So maybe an AoA indicator would have been useful for a couple of glances to get the lowest possible sink-rate out of the aircraft at touchdown, perhaps... I guess it's debatable about the usefulness. But in a normal or even "normal gusty" landing, it'd be nice to see what your real "margin" looks like.

But that 172 wasn't going to fly up and out of that stream of downward air that day... maybe just a slightly less "oommph" arrival at the bottom... the AoA would have told us what we already knew from the sinking feeling coming from our behinds... at full throttle.

You can read all about microbursts in the books, but watching a real airspeed indicator in a Skyhawk increase 20 knots on high 1/2 mile final with the power all the way off, and then drop 20 knots on the other side with a CFI who recognized it for what it was, and got the power up and pitched for what *should* have been best-angle -- and waited for the re-acceleration of the prop going full-blast... patiently -- will make your eyeballs bug out and your butt pucker as a Student Pilot about to go for your PPL checkride. :D

Good experience though, since it worked out at the bottom of the hill...
 
denverpilot said:
It'd be a little less "art" and more "science" if more aircraft were equipped with AoA indicators. ;)
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I've flown airplanes equipped with AOA indicators and I would not even think of looking at them in the flare.
 
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