Last few feet of the flare

[Henning]

Nothing wrong with what is happening. If the nose is up and the stall horn comes on and you are withing 1' of the ground, just hold that attitude and the plane will settle to the deck nicely. After that point, aerodynamic braking of picking up the nose further isn't actually very useful, better to keep elevator authority to gently lower the nose. If you are VERY short field and need the maximum braking, the brakes on the wheels are much more effective at that speed than any aerodynamic braking you'll get, so it's best to get the nose down right away and get on the binders. You don't want to be getting into the brakes with the nose up because you'll slam down the nose gear with a potential for damage. What you can work on is getting yourself to the point where you have that "Nose up, stall horn comes on" transition with the mains within 2" of the pavement. Then start practicing it with a 20kt cross wind.

 

[Ted]

Well my last night landing was a sqeaker, but that was probably more luck than skill (LOL)

That will be normal for, oh, the next couple hundred hours or so.

At 1150 hours (and 900 landings), with most of those hours and landings being in the same two aircraft, I am typically able to make greaser landings. However, there are the occasional ones that I consider hard landings that are embarassing to me. Somehow, my passengers always seem to think they're really good. I'm reminded of why whenever I fly on a commercial aircraft, those landings are rough.

After you fly the same aircraft for a while, the landings will naturally get smoother in general. I once told Tony that I won't be happy until every one of my landings is a greaser. He responded with "That's an impossible goal." I said "I know, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to try."

Don't beat yourself up about it if both you and the plane are reusable. You'll get the finer techniques down with practice, and are probably already making them smoother than what most people get on the airliners.

 

[dmccormack]

After you fly the same aircraft for a while, the landings will naturally get smoother in general. I once told Tony that I won't be happy until every one of my landings is a greaser. He responded with "That's an impossible goal." I said "I know, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to try."

Don't beat yourself up about it if both you and the plane are reusable. You'll get the finer techniques down with practice, and are probably already making them smoother than what most people get on the airliners.

So true....

Yet I've found that in the tailwheel, as soon as I get complacent -- ouch.

TW flying has improved my other flying. I'm more precise, more in tune with the airplane, and "driving" it less.

It's not just the location of the wheels -- old tube and fabnrics are far lighter with far less wing loading. So you have to be sensitive to tiny variations that wouldn't even affect a larger, heavier airplane.

 

[Ted]

So true....

Yet I've found that in the tailwheel, as soon as I get complacent -- ouch.

TW flying has improved my other flying. I'm more precise, more in tune with the airplane, and "driving" it less.

It's not just the location of the wheels -- old tube and fabnrics are far lighter with far less wing loading. So you have to be sensitive to tiny variations that wouldn't even affect a larger, heavier airplane.

I would fully believe that, and would like to get some time flying around in one of those old birds and getting some TW time. I'm sure it would improve my stick-and-rudder work. Hopefully I can get my tailwheel endorsement and find one that I could start actually flying.

 

[azure]

I've come to the realization that at least for myself, the secret of making greaser landings is patience. Don't be in a hurry to land the bird, it will land when it is good and ready. The best you can do is watch your airspeed, pay attention to your height above the pavement (peripheral vision is the key, or sideways glances at the runway lights on a >100 ft runway) and don't rush the flare. Keep the nose level until the last second, then pull up ge-e-e-ently.

Did I say don't rush the flare? It's worth repeating. The number one cause of hard landings for me is listening to that nervous CFI's voice saying don't hit the nosewheel, don't hit the nosewheel! That's when I pull up too soon and run out of airspeed too high above the runway. I sit pretty high up in my Cardinal so that what looks like a level attitude is really slightly nose-high already -- couple that with the Cardinal's great stabilator authority and it's VERY easy to overcontrol the flare.

It took me over 80 hours in this airplane to be able to make greaser landings consistently. So yes, what Ted said about flying the same airplane all the time. Also, when it's your own plane you're a lot more concerned with treating it gently than with making the first turnoff every time. As I told a passenger on Sunday (who had been a solo student herself 20 years ago but never did the checkride), I'd much rather be kind to my plane and passengers. I can do short field landings if I need to, and have a nice destination nearby to keep my short field skills sharp, I don't need to practice them on every landing when the runway is 4000 feet long.

Now after I've written this, my next landing will probably be a real plonker!

 

[Everskyward]

Many military pilots look *through* their AoA indicators in the flare... thus the comment, "Got HUD?"

One of our AOA indicators is on the glareshield. It's not HUD but is in your line of vision. I don't use it except as a curiosity. I fly with someone who has made something like 900 carrier landings and he says he doesn't use it either. Besides, would you want your landings to be like carrier landings?

Three words come to mind when thinking about good landings; trailing, link, gear.

 

[Clark1961]

Three words come to mind when thinking about good landings; trailing, link, gear.

Did Mari just say that a pilot's equipment is the most important thing for good landings?

 

[Everskyward]

Did Mari just say that a pilot's equipment is the most important thing for good landings?

Absolutely!

Actually I'm trying to make excuses for the landings I did with your equipment...

 

[whifferdill]

In over 800 Pitts landings, I can count on one hand the number of times I've gotten a true "greaser"...to me being a touchdown that is almost imperceptible. Not easy in my stiff-legged, blind airplane. I can consistently make good-to-decent landings, but I guess I save "greaser" for that elusive holy grail of landings.

But the important thing to remember is that a true greaser involves a fair amount of luck, and is rather unimportant and insignficant when it comes to what really matters in making good landings. Much more important than an absolutely perfect touchdown is consisently making good approaches and putting the plane down where you want with minimal excess speed. No luck involved there. A hot "greaser" touchdown 2,000' down the runway is a terrible landing in my book. The "greaser" is for style points only, and they mostly impress your non-pilot passengers anyway.

And to start another pointless, tired-out debate ....I think it's quite a bit easier to make a "greaser" wheel landing than a 3-point landing in a tailwheel airplane. The wheelie allows you to fly it down and smoothly find the runway without the need for precise airspeed or attitude control....it's descent rate only. To do a 3-point greaser means you must not only touchdown with almost zero descent, but you must also simultaneously do it with the airplane at precisely the right attitude. I guess that's why I find 3-pointers generally more challenging and satisfying when I stumble across a perfect one.

 

[Clark1961]

Absolutely!

Actually I'm trying to make excuses for the landings I did with your equipment...

If you'd landed a little plane in the previous five years you might need an excuse. The equipment remains reuseable so they were all great landings by definition.

However, next time we each get three t-n-gs and we'll go from there.

 

[gismo]

Did I say don't rush the flare? It's worth repeating. The number one cause of hard landings for me is listening to that nervous CFI's voice saying don't hit the nosewheel, don't hit the nosewheel! That's when I pull up too soon and run out of airspeed too high above the runway. I sit pretty high up in my Cardinal so that what looks like a level attitude is really slightly nose-high already -- couple that with the Cardinal's great stabilator authority and it's VERY easy to overcontrol the flare. It took me over 80 hours in this airplane to be able to make greaser landings consistently. So yes, what Ted said about flying the same airplane all the time.

One trick is to very carefully memorize the view out the window while rolling down the runway below takeoff speed with the nosewheel just barely touching or slightly higher. Unless you change your seat height (or head position during landing) that's the minimum pitch attitude you want to see when touching down. Often you can pick out a spot on the windshield side post that lines up with the horizon at that attitude. I've found this takes a lot of the guesswork out of landing a relatively unfamiliar airplane and it's probably what you subconsciously have done in a familiar one after several landings.

Also, when it's your own plane you're a lot more concerned with treating it gently than with making the first turnoff every time. As I told a passenger on Sunday (who had been a solo student herself 20 years ago but never did the checkride), I'd much rather be kind to my plane and passengers. I can do short field landings if I need to, and have a nice destination nearby to keep my short field skills sharp, I don't need to practice them on every landing when the runway is 4000 feet long.

Not every landing but it's worth making the attempt to land at the optimal pitch attitude and close to the (arrival) end relatively often lest you get so comfortable with a long landing that you have trouble making it short when it counts. Of course you can skip the hard braking part (no sense wearing out the brakes unnecessarily) but even then you should consciously get your toes on the brakes early as if you were going to brake hard.

Now after I've written this, my next landing will probably be a real plonker!

For most of us, a "firm" touchdown is pretty much a given on the next flight after we try to explain how to make good landings. Something about Karma and hubris I think.

 

[poadeleted20]

Many military pilots look *through* their AoA indicators in the flare...

...and many military pilots fly planes that aren't flared at all. But for light GA, the advantage in landings of an AOA indicator would be nailing the best speed on final, not how they control the plane in the flare. A number of other advantages would accrue, too, including nailing best engine-out glide speed, best angle/rate of climb, best cruise, etc.

 

[Fearless Tower]

And to start another pointless, tired-out debate ....I think it's quite a bit easier to make a "greaser" wheel landing than a 3-point landing in a tailwheel airplane.

In the DC-3, I would definitely agree with you, but for small planes, I have found it depends alot on the aircraft. I have made some real greaser 3 points and horrible wheelies in a Champ. In the 170, I found the opposite to be true.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Should I continue using this technique or should I work on timing the touchdown to coincide with the yoke being full aft?

For a 3 point landing in a tailwheel, timing the touchdown with the yoke full aft is typically considered ideal. For a tricycle gear plane, I don't think I have ever touched down with the yoke full aft and that goes for both nice smooth greasers and very short field landings.

 

[whifferdill]

I have made some real greaser 3 points and horrible wheelies in a Champ. In the 170, I found the opposite to be true.

Interesting. I used to have a Champ and thought it was a lot easier to grease a wheelie...especially compared to other types due to the soft oleo gear. I have a hard time greasing a wheelie or 3-pointer in my Pitts. Depends on the pilot, I guess. But I still feel like (in theory) wheelies are easier to do smoothly since it's descent rate only that's your focus, instead of descent rate AND perfect attitude for a 3-pt.

I have this suspicion that many folks will revert to a wheelie if they really want to try to make a smooth landing or avoid bouncing (ie. in front of crowd). You will rarely see a warbird do a 3-pointer after a display. I remember watching the National Air Tour (various 20's and 30's era bipes) come in to land, and EVERY one of about 20 of them did a wheelie. Seems they, the warbird guys, and many others don't want to slow down that much and risk plopping in a less than elegant 3-pointer when valuable airplanes are involved...or a lot of folks are watching. But who knows, maybe they are just trying to save a little wear and tear on their tailwheels. Or maybe wheelies just look cooler...now that I think about it, that must be it.

 

[dmccormack]

For a 3 point landing in a tailwheel, timing the touchdown with the yoke full aft is typically considered ideal. For a tricycle gear plane, I don't think I have ever touched down with the yoke full aft and that goes for both nice smooth greasers and very short field landings.

Hmmm...

I know I have to pull back about 1/4 travel to get full-up elevator after touching down very slow.

That's a pre-war Chief, and I'm sure other tw are different, but full aft on touchdown would be about impossible.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Hmmm...

I know I have to pull back about 1/4 travel to get full-up elevator after touching down very slow.

That's a pre-war Chief, and I'm sure other tw are different, but full aft on touchdown would be about impossible.

Not saying that I am able to achieve that...just paraphrasing Wolfgang Langewiesche. That is the way I have always heard the 'ideal' 3 point described. My personal experience is a little closer to yours.

 

[dmccormack]

Not saying that I am able to achieve that...just paraphrasing Wolfgang Langewiesche. That is the way I have always heard the 'ideal' 3 point described. My personal experience is a little closer to yours.

May have something to do with CG as well. It's very hard (but not impossible) to shift CG rearward in the bench-seat Chief.

As far as wheelies... I find them more difficult in the Chief. The Oleo gear doesn't help as there is a distinct two-step touch down -- wheel contact, then strut compression.

All the while the rudder is becoming less effective as the airplane tries to weathervane....