Landing Sight Picture

Slipperhead

Slipperhead

Pre-Flight
Joined
Nov 26, 2017
Messages
39
Display Name
Display name:
Slipperhead
Hi folks! I am in the later phases of training in an accelerated program for PPL. I'm doing fine with landings but I'm consistently not giving enough right rudder just before touchdown.

The sight picture looks just fine to me before touchdown, but we are a bit sideways... When I do give enough rudder, as per my CFIs instruction, the nose appears to be pointing WAY to far to the right. I'm just not seeing it...

Any pointers out there? Thx,

Garland

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
 
If you are drifting sideways, it's not RUDDER you need but AILERON. Rudder adjusts your longitudinal axis with respect to the flight path, but the flight path is effected by aileron.

Here's a way to practice. Get a reasonably long runway (6000' would be great). Fly down to the roundout but don't try to land. Fly down the 20-30 feet in the air trying to maintain position over the centerline and the longitudinal axis parallel to it.
 
Last edited:
I’m with Ron. Not sure why you would be needing so much right rudder during the touchdown. It sounds as though the longitudinal axis of the aircraft isn’t aligned with the runway, so you’re chasing the centerline during the landing and it’s creating some unique sight pictures for you.

In the end, there’s only one sure fire way to correct this problem and that’s more dual instruction with your CFI. Have the instructor demonstrate a proper landing and take note as to where the airplane is pointing while doing so.
 
Hi Garland.
It is very common for low time, or pilots that do not fly enough to stay current, to have a problem staying parallel to / on the center line. The having to apply right rudder, when you flare, comes from a couple of different effects / causes, not looking far enough down the runway, and for a short period scan to closer up, and the ground effect which actually tends to keep you flying / climbing in a sense.
Others have mentioned it but the key to landings is slow flying. If you go to practice make sure you have Slow flight down path. During slow flight look at the cowl and the wind tips with respect to the horizon. You can practice landings, at higher altitude, with a ground reference / straight line, until you hear the Stall horn, then keep flying, staying as close as you can to the selected / specified altitude. You will need to practice / know your numbers there is a lot of change in power during the transition, in a C172 maybe from 1100 during no power to 2000 to stay level, get the numbers during slow flight practice. It is not exactly like being in ground effect but it is very important to landings.
As you get more familiar / comfortable with the plane, and have more time to multiplex yourself / do more tasks, you can also try looking to the side to give you a better view of the attitude you are in.
I am not sure what plane you are using, and how much access time you have to the it, but you can taxi to a location where you have a long, 500 ft., straight line in the front of you, tie the tail down and spend time in the plane, move the rudder pedals, pull the toke / stick, trying getting a good feel / memorize that attitude and the position of your feet / legs, arms...
Another good practice, often overlooked, is during Taxi. Stay on the taxiway line at all times, keep the yoke / back in a position that you use for landing, look way down the taxiway, and do not ignore that phase.
All the above mostly applies to a simple, no Xwind landings. For Xwind there a few more elements/ steps to contend with, but if you get the no wind down, the Xwind will be much easier.
 
Last edited:
One issue with your sight picture may be that you're trying to line up the center of the cowling rather than the point right in front of you with the centerline.
 
Thanks for all the responses! I'm training in a Tecnam P92 Eaglet light sport. Our runway is 16-34 with 220 prevailing so it generally a crosswind landing every time. I'm trying my best to look down the runway as encouraged by my CFI. He is set to ride along with me on Monday to concentrate solely on pattern work/landings. I'm sure he will get me straightened out one way or another! We might try the flying the length of the runway just off the runway and play with the rudder to see what I'm missing, as recommended!
Thanks again,
Garland
KOFP Hanover, VA
 
Hi Garland.
If your airport is uncontrolled you have some more flexibility, but either way make sure that you announce your intentions, the controllers do not like to see acft dragging the rwy without a request / being informed.
The P92 / light sport in general take a lot more finesse / practice to land them properly, but with enough / proper practice, it can be done.
 
MauleSkinner said:
One issue with your sight picture may be that you're trying to line up the center of the cowling rather than the point right in front of you with the centerline.
Click to expand...

Maybe this is the simple cause?

When you park the plane, do you or can you park it on a painted line? Memorize on the cowl where your line was when you parked, then get out and see if the front wheel is on it or not.
 
Another trick is when you pull the plane out, put it on a line with the airplane aligned with the line. Then look at that when you get in. That’s straight. If it looks “off” thats the problem. Easy to find a painted line and drag the airplane over to it before flying at most airports.
 
denverpilot said:
Another trick is when you pull the plane out, put it on a line with the airplane aligned with the line. Then look at that when you get in. That’s straight. If it looks “off” thats the problem. Easy to find a painted line and drag the airplane over to it before flying at most airports.
Click to expand...

My first flights were in an Aquilla 210. Instructor tried to tell me how to sight, and I only had three flights in it but never got to where it looked right to me when it was pointing along the line. Felt to me like we were on an angle to the right.
Because of a new instructor, weights, etc, he had me go over to a Piper warrior (both planes are low wing, not that that matter, I don't know) and with that plane it was a piece of cake for me, it looked "right" when aligned.

I have no idea why, but not sure I understood how to keep the sight picture, what to look for. Going over to a Cessna 172 now and am anxious to see if that will be easy to gauge aligned.
 
FlySince9 said:
LOL... knew it was a typo... just be'n a jerk...LOL
Click to expand...
Hi Jerry.
I knew, you knew, just be'n a jerk back.., but it is still a good catch that needed to be fixed, to something closer to being accurate. Depending on the Load, and configuration, that number can vary a lot in the regime.
Thanks for pointing out.
 
John King, in all his videos, stresses to "keep the centerline between your 2 feet". His concept is that too many students think the centerline should be to their right if the plane is on the line correctly. Consequently, they drift too far to the left. With practice, you'll get it.
 
flyingron said:
Here's a way to practice. Get a reasonably long runway (6000' would be great). Fly down to the roundout but don't try to land. Fly down the 20-30 feet in the air trying to maintain position over the centerline and the longitudinal axis parallel to it.
Click to expand...
Then after comfort/competence at 20-30 feet, come on down to 10-15. Then 5-8, then 1-4.
 
Slipperhead said:
Thanks for all the responses! I'm training in a Tecnam P92 Eaglet light sport. Our runway is 16-34 with 220 prevailing so it generally a crosswind landing every time. I'm trying my best to look down the runway as encouraged by my CFI. He is set to ride along with me on Monday to concentrate solely on pattern work/landings. I'm sure he will get me straightened out one way or another! We might try the flying the length of the runway just off the runway and play with the rudder to see what I'm missing, as recommended!
Thanks again,
Garland
KOFP Hanover, VA
Click to expand...
I had this same problem in a 172. When I thought I was straight, my CFI would say, you're still crabbing, straighten up. I don't know if it helped me or not, but I tried getting behind the plane on the ground, squat down and see where exactly is it pointing in the distance, make a note of that point. Now get in with your seat at your preferred height and slid up where you like it. Now look at that spot in the distance and try to remember that sight picture, that is straight. Look for something on the cowl or maybe an instrument that lines up with 'straight'. Now you just have to make the plane point that way when you're landing(with the rudder).
 
HAPPYDAN said:
John King, in all his videos, stresses to "keep the centerline between your 2 feet". His concept is that too many students think the centerline should be to their right if the plane is on the line correctly. Consequently, they drift too far to the left. With practice, you'll get it.
Click to expand...

Now I'm a little more confused. I had read somewhere right shoulder as a guide, but how does it work keeping the centerline between your feet?

In th Aquilla I would line up to what I thought was on the centerline, but my instructor told me I was off to the left at an angle to the right.
I'm still not sure how to use a rivet or mark. I'm getting the idea one should be lined up (compass any help for angling problems?) and then pick a spot...but does that mean a spot in front of you that though it looks like I am to the left of center is actually center?

Strangely I don't have a problem with taking off straight. I pick a spot on the horizon and head for that. It's alignment on the runway (and assume it will be a problem also for me with landing).

I'm not sure if I should be mentally adjusting for my seat, or picking a rivet on the center bar in the windshield (when there is one) or something in front of me.
 
Last edited:
Slipperhead said:
We might try the flying the length of the runway just off the runway and play with the rudder to see what I'm missing, as recommended!
Click to expand...

I had a pilot come to me. He had gone from a Cirrus to a 182 and was now in a Flight Design CT and was having runway alignment problems in his new plane, tending to pull it left. On another forum, someone suggested putting a piece of tape right down the center of the glare shield for reference. He did that, and told me it was a big help - without it the stubby cowling gave poor visual cues re: alignment.

If your instructor thinks it’s beneficial, this exercise can have benefits as well:


The yaw string makes it clearer what’s going on, but will not work in a “tractor” configuration. Of course, sitting right on the longitudinal axis makes runway alignment a piece of cake!
 
Last edited:
Cute video.

Of course, unless there's a crosswind, right rudder should not be part of a normal landing, unless the pilot is subtly pulling the plane to the left with aileron - and correcting that will likely get rid of the need for right rudder on a normal landing.

What does the FAA recommend as to where to be looking?

4384745683_1ef360a3be_z.jpg


Another take, from Bill Kershner:

34473529032_c4e28515fb_c.jpg


Many pilots claim that looking at the far end of the runway works for them. Fine. But I've found many landing issues can be cured by pulling the focus point closer to the plane and to the side, so there's no concern about the nose coming up and blocking the view down the runway.
 
Last edited:
On one of my first flights as a student pilot a very long time ago, my instructor told me to look down the control tube (that's a Cessna term for the steel tube connecting the control wheel to the control yoke) as if it were the barrel of a rifle to eliminate parallax and see where the longitudinal axis of the airplane is pointed. Unfortunately, this doesn't work when the airplane has a control stick instead of a control wheel, but it's useful to visualize looking straight ahead instead of over the nose.

Cessna%20Control%20Nomenclature_zpslpmpwqwt.jpg
 
Slipperhead said:
Hi folks! I am in the later phases of training in an accelerated program for PPL. I'm doing fine with landings but I'm consistently not giving enough right rudder just before touchdown.

The sight picture looks just fine to me before touchdown, but we are a bit sideways... When I do give enough rudder, as per my CFIs instruction, the nose appthe nose appears to be pointing WAY to far to the right I'm just not seeing it...

Any pointers out there? Thx,

Garland

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

the nose appears to be pointing WAY to far to the right

That is your problem, or at least part of it. My instructor finally said “it is an illusion”, Start landing with the nose pointing to the right. The tell is if after touch down, Does the airplane track straight Down the center line, if so then the airplane is straight. If it goes left or right after touch down then you are pointed left or right on touchdown.

After a number a landings you will get used to this.

I do a fair amount of transition training in tandem seat aircraft, and we often have to undo this idea that the nose needs to point to the right of the center line. Same idea though, put the nose where the airplane tracks straight down the runway no matter where it looks like it is pointed.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
Hi everyone.
Different planes present different sight views. If you have a plane that you can see some of the cowl, like the Cessna 172, 152.. it is much easier to get the feel, get the proper sight, because it extends the forward view and it's easier to align with the centerline. In some, like the CTs there is No cowl in the front that you can see, in this case you have to get the proper perspective / sight by looking down the runway, very short bursts to 20-30 ft in the front, and you can also look to the side to get the proper alignment. As time goes on. and you get a good feel, you get to sense, know exactly where you are pointing without having to do some of the steps.
Keep your centerline between your legs, not easy to say to a lady, works just fine, as time goes on you can make some adjustments for better accuracy.
 
FastEddieB said:
Cute video.

Of course, unless there's a crosswind, right rudder should not be part of a normal landing, unless the pilot is subtly pulling the plane to the left with aileron - and correcting that will likely get rid of the need for right rudder on a normal landing.

What does the FAA recommend as to where to be looking?

4384745683_1ef360a3be_z.jpg


Another take, from Bill Kershner:

34473529032_c4e28515fb_c.jpg


Many pilots claim that looking at the far end of the runway works for them. Fine. But I've found many landing issues can be cured by pulling the focus point closer to the plane and to the side, so there's no concern about the nose coming up and blocking the view down the runway.
Click to expand...
Well, right rudder is needed if you are erroneously lining up with your nose pointed to the left due to a perception problem. I think that's what his problem is. Whatever cross wind there is he'll correct it to "nose left of center" every time, if that looks like the center to him.
 
cid:158959562153118427433606

Slipperhead said:
Hi folks! I am in the later phases of training in an accelerated program for PPL. I'm doing fine with landings but I'm consistently not giving enough right rudder just before touchdown.

The sight picture looks just fine to me before touchdown, but we are a bit sideways... When I do give enough rudder, as per my CFIs instruction, the nose appears to be pointing WAY to far to the right. I'm just not seeing it...

Any pointers out there? Thx,

Garland

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

upload_2018-3-10_21-59-43.png
 
You ARE seeing the sight picture, you just think it's wrong! Take that sight picture your instructor is showing you and realize that is the correct sight picture and that's how it should look. Maybe now it looks wrong because you think it should look something else, you just need to replace what you think it should look like, with what it actually looks like and then that will become the new normal.

All the above advise is also great advice! One day it will click, and you'll be able to get it most of the time!
 
FINALLY SOLVED!!!! I just flew today in gusty conditions and my CFR and I both agreed this was not the day to solo so we did pattern work instead! The approaches and landings were not hard, just challenging. I enjoyed the roller-coaster ride down, stirring the pot, working the throttle, and touching down. I had six landings and all were spot on, as far as runway alignment!

MauleSkinner was right on with his thoughts! Indeed, I was lining up centerline with the cowling/spinner on my skewed landings. So, here is what I did....on my way down the taxiway centerline, I stopped and snapped a pic of what proper alignment ACTUALLY looks like in a Tecnam LSA. As you can see, from my seat, when I have proper alignment, the cowling/spinner should be well to the right of the centerline. I remembered that picture and my CFI never had to say a word about...."MORE right rudder" for any of my landings. Here is the pic that tells all!

Thanks for all of your helpful suggestions! Garland (solo tomorrow if my CFI has a no-show!)

centerline.jpg
 
Slipperhead said:
FINALLY SOLVED!!!! I just flew today in gusty conditions and my CFR and I both agreed this was not the day to solo so we did pattern work instead! The approaches and landings were not hard, just challenging. I enjoyed the roller-coaster ride down, stirring the pot, working the throttle, and touching down. I had six landings and all were spot on, as far as runway alignment!

MauleSkinner was right on with his thoughts! Indeed, I was lining up centerline with the cowling/spinner on my skewed landings. So, here is what I did....on my way down the taxiway centerline, I stopped and snapped a pic of what proper alignment ACTUALLY looks like in a Tecnam LSA. As you can see, from my seat, when I have proper alignment, the cowling/spinner should be well to the right of the centerline. I remembered that picture and my CFI never had to say a word about...."MORE right rudder" for any of my landings. Here is the pic that tells all!

Thanks for all of your helpful suggestions! Garland (solo tomorrow if my CFI has a no-show!)

View attachment 61017
Click to expand...

Glad it works for you! Might try that with a student next time I fly with him. I do that taxing, dunno why I didn't think of landing too/
 
Slipperhead said:
FINALLY SOLVED!!!! I just flew today in gusty conditions and my CFR and I both agreed this was not the day to solo so we did pattern work instead! The approaches and landings were not hard, just challenging. I enjoyed the roller-coaster ride down, stirring the pot, working the throttle, and touching down. I had six landings and all were spot on, as far as runway alignment!

MauleSkinner was right on with his thoughts! Indeed, I was lining up centerline with the cowling/spinner on my skewed landings. So, here is what I did....on my way down the taxiway centerline, I stopped and snapped a pic of what proper alignment ACTUALLY looks like in a Tecnam LSA. As you can see, from my seat, when I have proper alignment, the cowling/spinner should be well to the right of the centerline. I remembered that picture and my CFI never had to say a word about...."MORE right rudder" for any of my landings. Here is the pic that tells all!

Thanks for all of your helpful suggestions! Garland (solo tomorrow if my CFI has a no-show!)

View attachment 61017
Click to expand...

Cool! But I'm still wondering why your CFI would say more right rudder on landing. Particularly if you're already pointed to the right of the center line...

Hopefully with this visual cue things sort themselves out naturally, but your CFI on the other hand...has me baffled, man.
 
labbadabba said:
Cool! But I'm still wondering why your CFI would say more right rudder on landing. Particularly if you're already pointed to the right of the center line...

Hopefully with this visual cue things sort themselves out naturally, but your CFI on the other hand...has me baffled, man.
Click to expand...
If the left seat guy is lining the spinner up with centerline, that puts the nose left of centerline, not right.
 
MauleSkinner said:
If the left seat guy is lining the spinner up with centerline, that puts the nose left of centerline, not right.
Click to expand...

Right, but the OP was saying he was pointed to the right and the CFI was saying more right rudder; but left or right that to me is not the problem. It sounds like the CFI is telling the student to fix his alignment with the centerline with rudder. To me, if the plane is coordinated on short final why would you try to align on centerline with your rudder? (absent a cross-wind that is)

It's like over-shooting your base to final turn and correcting with rudder, just sounds like a bad idea.
 
labbadabba said:
Right, but the OP was saying he was pointed to the right and the CFI was saying more right rudder; but left or right that to me is not the problem. It sounds like the CFI is telling the student to fix his alignment with the centerline with rudder. To me, if the plane is coordinated on short final why would you try to align on centerline with your rudder? (absent a cross-wind that is)

It's like over-shooting your base to final turn and correcting with rudder, just sounds like a bad idea.
Click to expand...
Where does the OP say he was pointed to the right?

It's actually nowhere near using rudder to correct an overshoot. Crosswind or not, if the nose isn't aligned with centerline for touchdown, use rudder to fix it. The implied statement is aileron as appropriate to cancel drift, but "right rudder, left aileron!" is a bit much to absorb when you're struggling to fly already.
 
labbadabba, I was mistakenly aligning the spinner with the centerline which resulted in the aircraft actually pointing quite a ways left of the centerline upon landing. That' why my CFI kept calling for more right rudder upon touchdown.

Realizing the correct sight picture today (above) and applying appropriate rudder to align the aircraft properly, he was strangely quiet...and satisfied!
 
To be fair, with the prevailing winds of the last few weeks, we seem to always have crosswind landings on runway 34. Regardless, now that I have the proper picture, I will apply whatever rudder input is needed for a happy landing! Thanks again, guys!
 
Slipperhead said:
labbadabba, I was mistakenly aligning the spinner with the centerline which resulted in the aircraft actually pointing quite a ways left of the centerline upon landing. That' why my CFI kept calling for more right rudder upon touchdown.

Realizing the correct sight picture today (above) and applying appropriate rudder to align the aircraft properly, he was strangely quiet...and satisfied!
Click to expand...

Okay, this makes a lot more sense. The CFI is calling for more right rudder upon touchdown that would make sense if you were pointed left on touchdown. I was thinking short final.

I retract my earlier statement. Happy flying, let us know how you do on your solo.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top