Landing on private property (with permission)

Chilito

Chilito

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Chilito
A family member has a large swath of land in the country, mowed and well-kept, and plenty long. They’ve asked if I could land there sometime, they’d be okay with it, and I’m wondering about the legality of it. If you’ve done this before, I’d appreciate your perspective. Should I call the city or county?
 
So you have been invited to land on your own family large swath of land and your first instinct is to call a mid level bureaucrat to ask if that’s ok with them ... no offense but that just seem ...sad.
 
MauleSkinner said:
If you call the city or county, they’ll most likely tell you it’s illegal whether it is or not.
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You call and ask them to cite any ordinances that prohibit the operation of an airplane off of private land. Maybe you even give them the impression that a neighbor is doing it. If there isn't an ordinance...
 
kyleb said:
You call and ask them to cite any ordinances that prohibit the operation of an airplane off of private land. Maybe you even give them the impression that a neighbor is doing it. If there isn't an ordinance...
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They’ll probably cite nuisance laws.
 
Greater MN, or one of the counties around the twin cities? There's a big difference when it comes to calling a county for permission. I

Personally, if it's in greater MN, I'd just do it and not bother calling anyone.

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In the past I flew our PA-12 out of our pasture. Currently, I fly my Citabria out of an airpark and there are about 50 private grass and dirt stripes within 50 miles and most of them have owners who are ok with people landing on them.

If in doubt and/or if it is not a full time airstrip:

- If you can, walk the strip to check for holes, rocks, etc and judge whether it's smooth enough for your aircraft.
- Take note of changes in elevation along the length you intend to use. Some off airport "runways" have enough slope that they are effectively one way - landing uphill and taking off downhill.
- Locate it in Google Earth and use the measurement tool to determine the length. In my experience most people don't estimate distance very well;
- If it's in a low lying area that may be prone to flooding, do a low pass and check for standing water before you land. If there's still doubt about how soft it is, do a touch and go, maintaining enough speed that you don't bog down in soft ground.
- If there are prairie dogs, or other burrowing critters, do a low pass before you land to check for new holes since you were last there.

Do a low pass or at least a very careful inspection before landing anyway.

For example, last week one of the very regularly used local grass runways in the area here had a 3 or 4 inch diameter irrigation hose running across it just beyond the area you'd normally touch down. Hitting that at 40 or so would have been interesting. The wet fields on either side were an indicator that the runway itself might be very soft and wet. Seeing the irrigation hose was just gravy on the potatoes.

Also be aware that cows like to rub up against airplanes. They'll trash a boot cowl in short order. They also seem to like licking dope and fabric aircraft. So if there are cattle in the field, start thinking about how you'll secure the aircraft or where you will park it after you land. That'll bring up questions like "will my airplane fit through that gate and can I safely taxi to it and through it?"
 
Last I checked, state statutes in MN allows off airport operations with permission of the land owner.

Most counties seem to either defer to or mirror state statutes unless they’ve had a problem.

In a town or city, it’s unlikely you’ll be able to do it more than the one “sorry, officer, I’ll never let it happen again” event.
 
Just do it, be discrete, don't be doing low passes. Nobody will notice.
 
Chilito said:
I’d appreciate your perspective.
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FWIW: you "research" what the local law is, not for permission, but to know where you stand WHEN your family member's neighbor call's 911 because they thought you crashed. Which is what usually happens in these circumstances.;)
 
As mentioned before, the insurance folks might have something to say about it.

Otherwise if anyone ask.... I thought the gas level might be low so I stopped to check. Turns out I was wrong, so off we go now.
 
Bell206 said:
FWIW: you "research" what the local law is, not for permission, but to know where you stand WHEN your family member's neighbor call's 911 because they thought you crashed. Which is what usually happens in these circumstances.;)
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Or your family invites the neighbors over for a cookout and tells them you will be flying in to meet them. Of course, cookouts only after the Rona!
 
Land use is regulated by local municipalities, FAA does not care.

When inquiring with any government agency, local or otherwise DO NOT ask for permission, rather ask if there is anything preventing you from...BIG DIFFERENCE.
 
Shawn said:
Land use is regulated by local municipalities, FAA does not care.
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^ This. Do your homework though. Different jurisdictions have different laws which may apply. For example off airport landings are banned on Long Island, NY and in the entire state of NJ.

also the advice regarding your insurance is sound. You’d feel pretty stupid if you had an incident / accident and had insurance deny the claim.
 
Larry Vrooman said:
Also be aware that cows like to rub up against airplanes. They'll trash a boot cowl in short order. They also seem to like licking dope and fabric aircraft. So if there are cattle in the field, start thinking about how you'll secure the aircraft or where you will park it after you land. That'll bring up questions like "will my airplane fit through that gate and can I safely taxi to it and through it?"
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Horses are just about as bad. I had a car gnawed on badly when I parked it in a pasture to go shooting. I noticed the horses over by the car, but didn't really pay attention. They bit damned near everything on the car. Toothmarks on the hood, bumpers, rearview mirrors, frickin' everywhere. Live and learn.

And don't leave expensive things where livestock can reach 'em.
 
Paul V said:
^ This. Do your homework though. Different jurisdictions have different laws which may apply. For example off airport landings are banned on Long Island, NY and in the entire state of NJ.

also the advice regarding your insurance is sound. You’d feel pretty stupid if you had an incident / accident and had insurance deny the claim.
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Verifying your insurance policy is the key.
As far as NJ , that’s not exactly a representative sample since everything is presumptively banned in NJ and while you are allowed to purchase and exercise temporary and renewable permit to maintain and sustain life, everything else is discretionary and subject to approval.
 
PaulS said:
Just do it, be discrete, don't be doing low passes. Nobody will notice.
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Discretion and consideration for others will go a long way.

As noted above there are a lot of private airstrips within 50 miles of my home field, and the vast majority are not on the chart. Most of the owners also have close by neighbors. Since the counties here in NC don't seem to have any concentric development ordinances, there are little housing developments pretty much everywhere and nothing, except the swamps, are truly rural by my South Dakota definition.

What that means here is that after take off, I may make my turn onto a base leg or on to my intended course at maybe 150' - 200' in order to avoid overflying or flying near a house. That goes a long way in preventing home owners from generating complaints that might cause the owner of the strip to close it to other users.
 
Will Kumley said:
Or your family invites the neighbors over for a cookout and tells them you will be flying in to meet them. Of course, cookouts only after the Rona!
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We have a mennonite run Dutch restaurant about 10 miles south of us (and about 45 minutes by road) that has a large field behind it that we can land in. It makes for a very nice $100 hamburger - on hold of course until they re-open.
 
WK has excellent advice (^^^), but if you're going to do it, do it commando: don't draw attention to the site or your intentions, and don't over-do the low fly-bys. Do it fast and unannounced, and nobody will even know what happened. Everyone loves a winner.
 
kyleb said:
You call and ask them to cite any ordinances that prohibit the operation of an airplane off of private land. Maybe you even give them the impression that a neighbor is doing it. If there isn't an ordinance...
Click to expand...

Usually in zoning laws. A lot of places require something like "large agricultural usage" or so many acres before they allow an airport because they're thinking big commercial airport. A lot of people's heads explode when you tell them how small a runway can actually be.

But if you're just landing in an existing field without an airport being developed...

Does NJ also prohibit engine failures?
 
If there are any nearby neighbors, it might be a good idea to let them know first, so they're not dialing 911 to report an "airplane crash" before you even finish the landing rollout.
 
bflynn said:
Does NJ also prohibit engine failures?
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Not at all. But if you have to put it down somewhere, its going back to the airport on a truck. Moot point since most of the time it would be going back on a truck anyway. But if you put it down somewhere without damage, there is no repair and fly it back out in NJ*.

*Assuming of course they find out about it. There was a guy I flew with back in my banner days who was notorious for flying on fumes. Liked to keep the plane as light as possible and all that. One day it bit him while flying low over one of the back bays. He managed to get it to a small grass covered patch of land in the middle of the bay. The island was probably all of 40ft by 150ft but he managed to put it down without incident, get some fuel out to it and get it back in the air again before anyone official knew he was there.
 
Try not to fly over neighbor's houses if it can be avoided. Try not to **** off the other locals, and you shouldn't have any issues.
You can also use google maps to measure how long your potential airstrip is before committing.
 
MauleSkinner said:
If you call the city or county, they’ll most likely tell you it’s illegal whether it is or not.
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What MauleSkinner said is almost certainly what will happen.
But, unless a municipality has a specific law against it. It's legal.
Trying to get that information is very difficult.
What will happen, if there are any neighbors: someone will call the police and the police will show up and make all kinds of stupid threats.
When you ask them to prove it, they most likely will feel threatened and jump ugly. Then they will issue a ticket for creating a public nuisance.
If there is no law on the books, you will win. Then they might try to pass a law, but you have already set a precedent, and you will be grandfathered, unless they can prove you are a clear danger to the community.
In farm country, it will be a total NOP. Crop dusters, etc.
 
Shepherd said:
.../
.../When you ask them to prove it, they most likely will feel threatened and jump ugly. Then they will issue a ticket for creating a public nuisance..../
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I started out in law enforcement in the mid 1980s and got out after a couple years. Even then attitudes were changning from "to serve and protect" to "us against the civilians" and "whatever it takes to get home tonight". At the time about 5% of the officers generated about 90% of the complaints about over enforcement, but it was clear that percentage of officers was going to rise.

In part I blame much of that on moving from a uniform with dress pants with a stripe on the side, a tie, those horribly hot heavy polyester dress shirts, and concealable body armor under the shirt, to a uniform consisting of tactical BDUs with tactical body armor on the outside. When officers started dressing like military personnel they started acting like it. It made an insecure officer's inclination to take charge and control the scene, without determining what was actually going on, far more likely, and it decreased the likelihood that an officer would appropriately use discretion to maintain order, rather than rigidly enforce the law. It also empowered officers with ego issues to feel even more that "contempt of cop" was an actual offense.

Much of it was blowback from Reagan amping up the war on drugs, spouting hyperbole about the threats posed to officers, and increasing the flow of surplus military equipment to police departments. Reagan was very pro law enforcement, but there were unintended consequences that we're still struggling with today, although I think progress is now being made.

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In any event yes, if you suggest to a modern day police officer that landing on a suitable piece of land with the landowners consent is legal and ask him to show you a statute that says differently, the odds are good he'll feel compelled to cite you for something convenient like disturbing the peace, creating a public nuisance, or if he's a real jerk going big with something like reckless endangerment.

If you don't want to end up in court contesting a citation, you are probably better off, looking surprise, being apologetic and advising you won't do it again.

On the other hand, you can get cited, take it to court and let the judge determine there's no legal basis for the citation - and verify that there is nothing illegal in landing where you did. That precedent could be useful.
 
Larry Vrooman said:
- Locate it in Google Earth and use the measurement tool to determine the length. In my experience most people don't estimate distance very well;
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Google Earth will also tell you the elevation and draw cross sections along a line. The elevation data I seem to recall comes from two sources depending on the location (the laser survey does not have full coverage (yet?)). Satellite radar survey and satellite laser survey. I can't recall now the vertical or horizontal resolution but you should check this before relying on it. The laser one has a much higher resolution, I vaguely recall that the radar one has a horizontal resolution of 20 metres.

I just looked on the online version and it doesn't seem to work there. You need to use the Full Application which seems to be called "Pro".

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Warmi said:
Verifying your insurance policy is the key.
As far as NJ , that’s not exactly a representative sample since everything is presumptively banned in NJ and while you are allowed to purchase and exercise temporary and renewable permit to maintain and sustain life, everything else is discretionary and subject to approval.
Click to expand...

Don't forget taxing it to death.
 
bflynn said:
Usually in zoning laws. A lot of places require something like "large agricultural usage" or so many acres before they allow an airport because they're thinking big commercial airport. A lot of people's heads explode when you tell them how small a runway can actually be.

But if you're just landing in an existing field without an airport being developed...

Does NJ also prohibit engine failures?
Click to expand...

No, but if you land on public roads, you will get a ticket and bill from the Staatspoletzi for the fine. BTDT on an UNOPENED stretch of an interstate when the 152 blew a jug with a student. The observation above is correct; in NJ it's presumed forbidden unless you pay for a permit to do it.
 
Chilito said:
A family member has a large swath of land in the country, mowed and well-kept, and plenty long. They’ve asked if I could land there sometime, they’d be okay with it, and I’m wondering about the legality of it. If you’ve done this before, I’d appreciate your perspective. Should I call the city or county?
Click to expand...
Gliders land out off-airport all the time. Sometimes the land owner is okay with it, sometimes not. Check out the condition of the proposed landing site (glider pilots have to do this on the "fly), measure it and determine what obstacles you may encounter. In many instances, in rural counties there is an an agricultural exception on property that allows for the landing of aircraft there, so a county official might want to deny you from doing so but they have no teeth to go after you for it. However, if you bend the airplane, or some sort of injury occurs during you operation, I'm sure it will be scrutinized by both the insurance company and the FAA (if they know or find out about it). I've landed on my cousin's farm in Oregon (over 35 years ago) after they took the crop of clover off the field. I measured it, determined there were no obstacles and the Cessna 210 I was flying landed there just fine. But it wasn't smooth like I thought. My eye teeth didn't feel too good after I rattled to a stop. Don't ask your insurance company because they will most definitely say no, and don't ask them if it's okay to land on grass runways either.
 
Liberty Flyer said:
Don't ask your insurance company because they will most definitely say no, and don't ask them if it's okay to land on grass runways either.
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If you prefer to operate uninsured, why have insurance at all?

my airplanes all had off-airport coverage, but some companies won’t provide it, so it often can’t be added mid term. In that case, you’d need to change carriers at renewal time if you want it.
 
Remember an approaching & landing airplane can be very quiet if the approach is steep enough. Taking off is a lot noisier but it is hard to get the number then......:rolleyes:
 
MauleSkinner said:
If you prefer to operate uninsured, why have insurance at all?

my airplanes all had off-airport coverage, but some companies won’t provide it, so it often can’t be added mid term. In that case, you’d need to change carriers at renewal time if you want it.
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I did not say fly uninsured. I said don't ask. The difference is, if you ask, they may exclude that from your coverage the next time around or do as you stated, you'll need to get off-airport coverage. If it isn't specifically excluded, then are you covered or not? That's the question. There are plenty of insurance providers that would exclude grass runways whether they are at an approved airport, or are an approved airstrip. In Texas they would block about 80% of the strips from being landed on if there is an exclusion against no-paved runways in the policy.
 
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