Landing Left of the Centerline

Henning said:
Being on centerline on approach is irrelevant to being on centerline on landing.
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MyassisDragon said:
Yep...Agreed...
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I agree you can be on centerline on landing just fine without being on centerline for approach. It's a teaching tool to teach them to be aware of where the centerline is and to get their brain thinking about the centerline. Once it clicks for them the centerline problem is permanently gone and this does that rapidly in one lesson.

If I send a student to a private checkride they land on the centerline every time.

It's an effective teaching tool that fixes whatever is disconnected in their brain. Not something they need to do forever.

It's also very good at showing someone that you can tell if you're on track to something very small even when you're miles away. They don't have problems doing ground reference maneuvers during a checkride because they've learned how to track a painted line when miles out.

You'll also notice I said "track" on final. I'm not making someone slip for all of final to be "aligned". I'm teaching them to track to it. Although if someone does struggle with the concept of slipping into the wind down low a few long finals of doing it on a really windy day generally solves that as well.
 
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James331 said:
For a student pilot he should be focusing greatly on the precision of his landings.
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Focus on precision is great, but to be a couple of feet off the centerline is nothing to stress over. If he was 20 feet over, yes there should be concern. That precision will come in time.

I'm sure if you sit at the airport and watch 100 landings, not even half are dead on centerline, they might be a few feet off.
 
My CFI had me do the exercise of flying the full length of the runway in ground effect, and on each pass he'd say he wanted 1/3 left of the centerline, 1/3 right, and then back to center when powering up for the go around. Then maybe next time 1/2 on one side and back to center...

This not only helped my runway alignment, but my crosswind landings are pretty darn good, if I do say so myself.
 
rolivi said:
My CFI had me do the exercise of flying the full length of the runway in ground effect, and on each pass he'd say he wanted 1/3 left of the centerline, 1/3 right, and then back to center when powering up for the go around. Then maybe next time 1/2 on one side and back to center...

This not only helped my runway alignment, but my crosswind landings are pretty darn good, if I do say so myself.
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I do that often times before I even have them try to land. Our 12,000 ft runway is great for such things.
 
Fearless Tower said:
You look 'through the nose' and land using peripheral vision.
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This may be something like "North Up vs Track Up".

Enough people are advocating different techniques that there may be an underlying difference in how we see and process visual cues.

I have flown many planes where when the nose came up it completely blocked the view forward. "I was taught" to look to the side to still be able to see. That advice seemed to agree with guidance from various publications, and it has always worked for me.

Maybe there are fundamental differences in the way we see. My peripheral vision has always tested as normal, but I honestly do not think mine is sufficient to judge my height over the runway and my spacing from each runway edge while staring straight ahead. Not to say that others can't.

In my Citabrias, you seem to be saying to focus on a spot between my student's shoulder blades and use my peripheral vision. Again, the way I'm wired has me seeing my height and runway alignment MUCH more clearly just looking out to the side.

In a moment I'll link to an article I wrote. It's old hat to many here, but there are always newcomers.

Here it is:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22997486/Wheretolook.pdf

The most relevant part:

Note: A study performed by engineering students associated with the University of Michigan Flyers in the early 1970s in which a device that measured eye movement was placed on the heads of pilots who were making good landings agreed with the recommendations of this article. At that time a lot of instructors were stressing that the student should look well down the runway in the flare. When those same instructors wore the device that measured their eye movements and where they were looking, it was found that they focused near the left edge of the runway, about 200 feet ahead of the airplane.
 
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TommyG said:
Focus on precision is great, but to be a couple of feet off the centerline is nothing to stress over. If he was 20 feet over, yes there should be concern. That precision will come in time.

I'm sure if you sit at the airport and watch 100 landings, not even half are dead on centerline, they might be a few feet off.
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If I'm instructing I want that damn plane dead nuts in the center and you'll hear it if its not...that's what you pay me for. If you're 12 inches off I'll probably let you solo as long as I know you're working on getting her dead on.

If I'm not right on the centerline and touching my mains right where I want I consider that a bad landing in my book, and that for a night ILS +SN. If you're not working your butt off for perfection you're nothing.



MyassisDragon said:
Now thats an awesome view....must feel good to land that. I landed LIFR at 300 but no fog recently and was pretty geeked to see the rabbit but still had the sigh of relief when the wheels touched down.......
But i was still 1-2 feet left of the center line.....I blame it on ocular dominance...:dunno:
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Cool shot, but its not one of mine, just google.
 
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TommyG said:
Focus on precision is great, but to be a couple of feet off the centerline is nothing to stress over. If he was 20 feet over, yes there should be concern. That precision will come in time.

I'm sure if you sit at the airport and watch 100 landings, not even half are dead on centerline, they might be a few feet off.
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Why be complacent though? A couple of feet off centerline is ok but wouldn't you like to be excellent and land exactly on the centerline?
 
FastEddieB said:
This may be something like "North Up vs Track Up".



Enough people are advocating different techniques that there may be an underlying difference in how we see and process visual cues.



I have flown many planes where when the nose came up it completely blocked the view forward. "I was taught" to look to the side to still be able to see. That advice seemed to agree with guidance from various publications, and it has always worked for me.



Maybe there are fundamental differences in the way we see. My peripheral vision has always tested as normal, but I honestly do not think mine is sufficient to judge my height over the runway and my spacing from each runway edge while staring straight ahead. Not to say that others can't.



In my Citabrias, you seem to be saying to focus on a spot between my student's shoulder blades and use my peripheral vision. Again, the way I'm wired has me seeing my height and runway alignment MUCH more clearly just looking out to the side.
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So you are saying you physically look to the side when landing a tailwheel with little forward visibility?


Suit yourself. Peripheral vision has always worked just fine for me landing from the back seat of T-6s and my Waco.
 
Fearless Tower said:
So you are saying you physically look to the side when landing a tailwheel with little forward visibility?


Suit yourself. Peripheral vision has always worked just fine for me landing from the back seat of T-6s and my Waco.
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Yep, if the runway was there before you lost sight of it, it's still there when you touch down. Peripheral cues do a good job of detecting pitch, drift, and sink/climb.
 
jordane93 said:
Why be complacent though? A couple of feet off centerline is ok but wouldn't you like to be excellent and land exactly on the centerline?
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I am just saying that a 20 hour pilot should not be stressing about being right in the centerline. At 20 hours I would rather have my students have better touchdowns than centerline. At 40-50 hours, I would expect more centerline precision. Also if a 20 hour pilot is more focused getting right on the centerline. I am more concerned of him disregarding something more important than a couple of feet.
 
I too was landing just left of the centerline when I was training. Since my plane was older I didn't have the conventional 6 pack and my CFI noticed I was checking my speed too often. He covered up the airspeed indicator, we flew around in slow flight and a few other things then had me landing with it covered, since then I hit the centerline.
 
Fearless Tower said:
So you are saying you physically look to the side when landing a tailwheel with little forward visibility?
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Absolutely. Though in many cases I'm not talking little forward visibility - I'm talking no forward visibility.

And I don't want anyone to get the idea I'm looking perpendicularly to the side - I'm still looking forward, just at an angle.


Suit yourself. Peripheral vision has always worked just fine for me landing from the back seat of T-6s and my Waco.
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Suit yourself. :wink2: As I said, maybe a fundamental difference in the acuity and processing of peripheral cues. I know I do better turning my head and looking at an angle at the runway edge. I will link to a video of a C195 landing in a moment to help show what I mean.
 
Here's that video:


http://youtu.be/lFGkPNg3c4M

The copilot or instructor appears to have a head mounted camera, so it should be pointing about where he's looking - most people will turn their head to point at the thing they wish to focus on.

A couple screen grabs:

First, right before touchdown:

15782080643_7068918fa2_z.jpg


That coincides with where I would be looking - slight angle and towards the runway edge maybe 20' to 50' ahead of the plane.

Second, the view straight ahead as he pans across the panel after landing:

15779655824_4d6a153d46_z.jpg



Just a single example, but I'm curious - can anyone find and post a video of a similar obstructed-view landing where the whole landing process looks like that second frame? I think from what several have said, the whole landing should look like that since they're looking "through" the panel, head straight, and using just peripheral cues.

If anyone has a plane like this, I have a cap-mounted GoPro and I'd love to go up with you to confirm the image of head locked straight and looking through the panel. I stipulate it's possible - but like preferring North Up I find it hard to visualize!
 
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TommyG said:
Focus on precision is great, but to be a couple of feet off the centerline is nothing to stress over. If he was 20 feet over, yes there should be concern. That precision will come in time.
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20 Feet over would put me in the grass
 
FlyingIsGood said:
It looks like he's landing way left of the centerline.
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Depending on who was flying, in a plane that totally obstructs your forward vision you kinda do have to offset just a tad to keep the centerline in view.

Or maybe the left seat pilot was just falling victim to the same tendencies the OP was asking about!
 
FastEddieB said:
Depending on who was flying, in a plane that totally obstructs your forward vision you kinda do have to offset just a tad to keep the centerline in view.

Or maybe the left seat pilot was just falling victim to the same tendencies the OP was asking about!
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I figured that if the right-seat was flying it, he might have been using the centerline stripes as an edge guide. The aircraft parallels that line pretty closely, with it just visible to the right seat guy.
 
FlyingIsGood said:
I figured that if the right-seat was flying it, he might have been using the centerline stripes as an edge guide. The aircraft parallels that line pretty closely, with it just visible to the right seat guy.
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That was my assumption, and how I would have flown it from the right seat, but you know what happens when you assume! :nono:
 
denverpilot said:
That's really the key to stopping it. Find narrow runways. They'll fix whatever problems you have in the first three go-arounds. Heh.
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Ha ha I'm not so far off I'm having to go around, I just seem to be consistently landing a couple of feet left of center.
 
FastEddieB said:
Just a single example, but I'm curious - can anyone find and post a video of a similar obstructed-view landing where the whole landing process looks like that second frame? I think from what several have said, the whole landing should look like that since they're looking "through" the panel, head straight, and using just peripheral cues.
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What good would such a video do? The camera in that second frame you posted is not showing any of the peripherals. I guarantee you I can see more out of the sides in my peripheral vision in my Waco.
 
TRocket said:
Ha ha I'm not so far off I'm having to go around, I just seem to be consistently landing a couple of feet left of center.
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T's just that you are looking across the center of the prop to the line. Put a piece of tape on the cowl extending out on the line of the yoke shaft. Being able to spot land the centerline on the threshold just made for a really easy 709 ride.
 
TRocket said:
Ha ha I'm not so far off I'm having to go around, I just seem to be consistently landing a couple of feet left of center.
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You missed my point. Go find a runway where a couple of feet will put a wheel in the grass and you won't do it anymore. Narrow runway. Really narrow. Or wider airplane. Haha. ;)
 
FlyingIsGood said:
It looks like he's landing way left of the centerline.
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Possibly trying to keep the centerline in sight? Maybe problems seeing equal pictures out the left and right sides of the aircraft in side by side seating?
 
Let's get something clarified, are we talking 2' left of centerline with the gear between the mains nearer the right wheel, or with the centerline 2' outside the right main?

Do you come in like this? (Sorry, kinda long, my Russian buddy shot it)


If it's between the mains, you're golden, nobody expects a better standard than that. If you're landing with the centerline 2' outside the gear, you need to do some work, but you're still ok for where you are in the learning curve and will likely manage to be in proportionally the same place on a narrower runway.
 
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Fearless Tower said:
So you are saying you physically look to the side when landing a tailwheel with little forward visibility?


Suit yourself. Peripheral vision has always worked just fine for me landing from the back seat of T-6s and my Waco.
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It's all individual preference I guess. The Pitts also has pretty non-existent forward vis, and I always keep my eyes dead straight ahead, using peripheral vision to keep the left and right side sight picture identical. No centerline or directional control issues. Whatever works.
 
whifferdill said:
It's all individual preference I guess...Whatever works.
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That's what I was trying to say with the skinned cats.

This just surprises me, is all - I would have thought on having one's view blocked to the front, looking out the side would be natural and instinctive.

Kinda like Track Up!

Maybe its a perceptual divide between the center focus crowd that favors looking out the side and the peripheral cue crowd that handles it by focusing forward yet "seeing" peripherally.

Vive la difference!

Oh, and "whatever works" is one of my catch phrases!
 
denverpilot said:
You missed my point. Go find a runway where a couple of feet will put a wheel in the grass and you won't do it anymore. Narrow runway. Really narrow. Or wider airplane. Haha. ;)
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Ha Ha I got ya, I'll have to see what is close to me

Henning said:
Let's get something clarified, are we talking 2' left of centerline with the gear between the mains nearer the right wheel, or with the centerline 2' outside the right main?
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It's still between the mains, just closer to the right wheel. Occasionally more than 2 feet but it's always between the mains. Just always seems to be toward the left side of the runway
 
Oh; another thing, Tony; and it may have already been mentioned, but all this parralex and looking from the left seat problems will go away if you treat it like a single seat.
Just pretend the right seat doesn't exist. Line up with the centering between your legs.
Straddle the centerline with your legs so that your feet would be saddled the line if you were a bird landing on your feet.
When you sight straight down a line, like looking down and thru the sight of a rifle, you can perceive the slightest drift or yaw much quicker.
Straddle the centerline always, even when taxxing, in time it will come automatically, but only if you drill it into your automatic nervous system now.
 
FastEddieB said:
That's what I was trying to say with the skinned cats.

This just surprises me, is all - I would have thought on having one's view blocked to the front, looking out the side would be natural and instinctive.

Kinda like Track Up!

Maybe its a perceptual divide between the center focus crowd that favors looking out the side and the peripheral cue crowd that handles it by focusing forward yet "seeing" peripherally.

Vive la difference!

Oh, and "whatever works" is one of my catch phrases!
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It is instinctive, and leads to groud loops when people give in...:lol:
 
Henning said:
It is instinctive, and leads to groud loops when people give in...:lol:
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I see the emoticon, but as a matter of fact...

...in 1,500 tailwheel hours, probably at least half of which were instructing, I have yet to see a ground loop.

Had students swerve off the runway at least once. Had them drag a downwind wingtip once. And had them hit the tail hard enough to bend the bottom of the rudder at least twice.

But a ground loop? Never.

Or at least not yet - though not currently flying tailwheel I may be safe!
 
nosehair said:
Oh; another thing, Tony; and it may have already been mentioned, but all this parralex and looking from the left seat problems will go away if you treat it like a single seat.
Just pretend the right seat doesn't exist. Line up with the centering between your legs.
Straddle the centerline with your legs so that your feet would be saddled the line if you were a bird landing on your feet.
When you sight straight down a line, like looking down and thru the sight of a rifle, you can perceive the slightest drift or yaw much quicker.
Straddle the centerline always, even when taxxing, in time it will come automatically, but only if you drill it into your automatic nervous system now.
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I agree, I need to break myself of these things now before they become habit. Thanks for the advice
 
some bigger airports have lights exactly on the centerline. It is pretty annoying hitting them with the nose wheel when landing dead on the center. thus I try to land a couple of feet from centerline.
 
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