Landing Downwind

5 knots downwind, maybe OK. 10 knots is about the limit for any plane I've flown. Some have the downwind speed in the limitarion section. 15 knots is pretty fast. If there had been an accident, it would have been hard to defend 15 knots.
 
My home field has an easily overlooked line in the AFD that states NSTD LIRL AVBL BY PRIOR ARRANGEMENT ONLY; CALL...
This is not notam'd. Lights are not left on unless a pilot who has completed a night checkout calls and requests it before close of business for the FBO.
Landing is one direction only, typically with a tailwind and the missed has unlit mountains in the traffic pattern.
In my plane, once over the runway, the nose sits high enough to prohibit any forward view over the nose. Landing in the dark, unable to see landmarks, typically with a tailwind, in a plane I was trained to cross numbers at 90 knots, on a runway that isn't long leaves me at least a little on edge.
 
bbchien said:
He didn't have as sectional and didn't know the frequecies, Jay. It's pretty common. And look at the sock? ....c'mon.....
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You don't even need to see the sock. If you find yourself floating halfway down the runway and things seem to be moving faster than usual while your airspeed is "normal" you ought to realize that the wind is in the wrong direction.


And I seriously doubt this was someone "practicing" downwind landings if the wind was truly 15Kt right down the runway as that's beyond the "recommended limits" for almost any piston powered airplane I can think of. OTOH, given the late touchdown, it would seem that this pilot does need some training (not much point in practicing mistakes) with downwind landings. Unless there are obstructions to clear it should be possible to touch down within a couple hundred feet of the (approach) end even when the wind is blowing in the wrong direction and in that case it's more important than ever.
 
Captain said:
As long as the wings support the aircraft the wind makes no difference to the handling of the plane (discounting gusts which cause local variations). So, in a steady state wind the plane flies the same. The wind only cause a change in reference to the ground. If you think about it that makes sense as wind is a measure between the ground (zero as viewed by the observer) and the airmass.

So, an airplane will stop flying at the same indicated air speed regardless of if its in a head wind or tail wind as referenced to the ground. The difference is the amount of terrain covered in a float. If a plane stops flying at 55 kts and a pilot comes in at 63 kts and floats for 5 seconds to bleed off that extra 8 kts then you can see the difference between head wind and tail wind.

5 seconds with a tail wind eats up much more runway than 5 seconds with a head wind. It would be easy to convert both situations to ground speed and see how much more runway gets used in the tailwind scenario.

But the fact remains that the tail wind itself did not CAUSE the float. It just made the float use more runway than would otherwise have occurred.
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I see what you're saying but again that's not fully correct since a strong enough tailwind is going to nothing to help you bleed off airspeed before touchdown where as a headwind will only promote it once you pull that power out.

Ever tried to land on a short runway in a healthy tailwind?
 
Let's take this opportunity to point out that, sometimes, there are some good reasons for landing or taking off downwind.

- Uphill/downhill that favors one direction
- Terrain
- One instrument approach into an airport, and that approach happens to be downwind
- Not wanting to do a circling approach due to low vis/night conditions (or alternately being unable to do one due to ceilings)

In our ops manual on 135 we had limits on circling approaches (especially at night), and doing a straight in approach with a tailwind was considered preferable.

One must, of course, always calculate what the runway penalty is going to be. One must be safe. But, there can be reasons why you'd want to. I've landed downwind on more than one occasion for good reasons, and never had a problem.
 
ProspectingCFI said:
I see what you're saying but again that's not fully correct since a strong enough tailwind is going to nothing to help you bleed off airspeed before touchdown where as a headwind will only promote it once you pull that power out.

Ever tried to land on a short runway in a healthy tailwind?
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I absolutely agree. My point was only about the airborne portion of landing....the float. Once the wheels support the plane then my position changes 100%.

There is a reason we land and takeoff into the wind and a reason many planes have a max tailwind in the limitations section.

Ted is correct...there are times when a tailwind may be the way to go. I've landed at Aspen (ASE) many times with a tailwind. Once the wind shifted short final at ASE to a 18kt direct tailwind. That was too much for me so we circled and landed wrong way (into the wind on 33). We were way past the MAP and going around was not an option. That was an experience...
 
ProspectingCFI said:
I see what you're saying but again that's not fully correct since a strong enough tailwind is going to nothing to help you bleed off airspeed before touchdown where as a headwind will only promote it once you pull that power out.

Ever tried to land on a short runway in a healthy tailwind?
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Sorry but this is completely incorrect. For an airborne aircraft there is no such thing as a tailwind outside of the effects on ground speed. The airplane is moving forward through the air mass at exactly the same speed as it would if it were flying the opposite direction. There is no "wind" blowing on the tail or influencing the aerodynamic behavior of the aircraft in any way. It will bleed off airspeed in a flair or when power is cut exactly as it would if going any other direction.

A tailwind is certainly going to affect the process of touching down on the surface of the runway, exactly the same way landing at a high altitude or high DA airport would.
 
It's good to practice downwind landings from time to time. There may be times when you'll have to land downwind..for example, engine failure on takeoff at an altitude that permits you to turn back to the field.
Other examples would be worsening wx, or any time you need to get on the ground ASAP.
 
ProspectingCFI said:
I see what you're saying but again that's not fully correct since a strong enough tailwind is going to nothing to help you bleed off airspeed before touchdown where as a headwind will only promote it once you pull that power out.
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Tailwind vs headwind has nothing to do with helping you bleed off airspeed -- at least, not by itself. As Captain said, the plane doesn't know or care what direction the wind is blowing with respect to the ground, until the wheels touch. That said, it's also true that it can take longer to bleed off airspeed with a tailwind and that is because a good tailwind several hundred feet up typically shears to a weaker tailwind at ground level, causing you to gain airspeed for a short time coming over the fence.
 
I should have said ground speed instead of airspeed but bottom line is in a tailwind it takes you much longer to stop the plane vs a headwind. I seriously hope that you guys aren't arguing against that point???
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Let's take this opportunity to point out that, sometimes, there are some good reasons for landing or taking off downwind.

- Uphill/downhill that favors one direction
- Terrain
- One instrument approach into an airport, and that approach happens to be downwind
- Not wanting to do a circling approach due to low vis/night conditions (or alternately being unable to do one due to ceilings)

In our ops manual on 135 we had limits on circling approaches (especially at night), and doing a straight in approach with a tailwind was considered preferable.

One must, of course, always calculate what the runway penalty is going to be. One must be safe. But, there can be reasons why you'd want to. I've landed downwind on more than one occasion for good reasons, and never had a problem.
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Agree with this. The list above are absolutely good reasons for electing downwind landings. I would add avoidance of a westerly heading on landing at sunset as an additional reason for electing a downwind landing. Of course one must be on speed and know the capabilities of their plane.

If you have never been into a runway with uphill / downhill gradient, you might be surprised how little it takes to be significant. Recently I flew into 14A with a 1 - 1.4% gradient. The local pilot I spoke with there said the locals typically land uphill and depart downhill unless the tailwind exceeds 20 knots.
 
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Silvaire said:
Sorry but this is completely incorrect. For an airborne aircraft there is no such thing as a tailwind outside of the effects on ground speed.
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And wind shear (or gradient if you prefer)

Wind speed drops as you get close to the ground - when you are landing into the wind, the inertia of the aircraft (which tends to mainatin a constant speed WRT the ground since we can assume the earth as the inertial frame of reference) results in a drop the speed through the air as you fly from the faster moving air to the slower moving air - it "helps" with the flare / touchdown. Landing downwind, as the air slows down close to the ground the inertia of the aircraft helps maintain the aircraft ground which increases speed through the air which requires more deceleration from the aircraft and improves float.
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speed
 
azure said:
Tailwind vs headwind has nothing to do with helping you bleed off airspeed -- at least, not by itself. As Captain said, the plane doesn't know or care what direction the wind is blowing with respect to the ground, until the wheels touch. That said, it's also true that it can take longer to bleed off airspeed with a tailwind and that is because a good tailwind several hundred feet up typically shears to a weaker tailwind at ground level, causing you to gain airspeed for a short time coming over the fence.
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OOPS. Should have read the whole thread.
 
azure said:
That said, it's also true that it can take longer to bleed off airspeed with a tailwind and that is because a good tailwind several hundred feet up typically shears to a weaker tailwind at ground level, causing you to gain airspeed for a short time coming over the fence.
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Great comment. This combined with most pilots coming in 10-20 knots fast = looooong float.
 
I occasionally listen to the CTAF and have mentioned the new pattern direction or the winds if around 10 kts or greater. It is real simple to say, "Rwy 18 is now left traffic" or "winds are favoring rwy 36." They usually thank me and make the proper corrections. I won't sit back and watch a fellow pilot kill himself, his passengers or someone else in the pattern. Yes, he needs to fly more often and get some training. Hopefully after a little reminder from the ground he will realize this.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
http://skyvector.com/airport/OSC/Oscoda-Wurtsmith-Airport
DURG DALGT HRS TAILWINDS MAY EXIST OVER APCH ENDS RY 06 & 24 SIMULTANEOUSLY.


Now what do you do...


Of course with 11800 feet, it probably doesn't matter.
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TStorm in middle of airport???


EdFred said:
Ummmmmm, if you fly the approach correctly even with a tailwind you should still touchdown within 200' of the numbers. The only thing landing downwind does it increase the ground roll. (Assuming no obstructions on approach)
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:goofy:
BINGO
 
RV10flyer said:
I occasionally listen to the CTAF and have mentioned the new pattern direction or the winds if around 10 kts or greater. It is real simple to say, "Rwy 18 is now left traffic" or "winds are favoring rwy 36." They usually thank me and make the proper corrections. I won't sit back and watch a fellow pilot kill himself, his passengers or someone else in the pattern. Yes, he needs to fly more often and get some training. Hopefully after a little reminder from the ground he will realize this.
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This is the second (or third) comment about how someone should warn the pilot that he's landing downwind.

Do you guys really sit around the airport with your handheld on at all times? Mine lives in a pocket inside the plane, and the batteries are probably dead since last Oshkosh, which is the only place I ever use it.

In the instance I describe, there was certainly no opportunity to warn anyone, even if I had felt the need to say anything. IMHO there is nothing inherently unsafe about landing downwind at an otherwise empty airport. The pilot has that throttle thingy in his hand, and can always go around if need be -- which is exactly what he did.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
 
Back in the late 70's I was hanging around the airport as I did a lot then since I worked there and this guy came in with a brand new rented Mooney 231. This airport had a 2500 ft runway with obstacles at both ends so it was a mild challenge for Mooneys. I know because my brother owned a 201. The wind almost always favored 27 unless it was raining at which time it swung around to 9. Well, this day it was sprinkling a little bit so in comes the guy in the Mooney and he goes screaming past our spot which was about midway and gets our attention enough to go outside and watch as he slams it down and locks up the brakes.

Smoke, blown tires as he got to the end of the runway and crossed the culvert, picking up a fence along the way. Across the road and over another ditch that shoved the right main gear through the wing. Picked up another fence then headed up the hill doing a slow pirouette to the right, down the other side and out onto the 9th green at the golf course.

"Whoa!" I said to Curt, "Did you see that?"
"Yup" said Curt so we went into the office, filled our coffee cups and walked down to the golf course.

The guy wasn't hurt, Mooneys are pretty stout, but that was one of the most spectacularly botched downwind landings I've ever seen.
 
Silvaire said:
Back in the late 70's I was hanging around the airport as I did a lot then since I worked there and this guy came in with a brand new rented Mooney 231. This airport had a 2500 ft runway with obstacles at both ends so it was a mild challenge for Mooneys. I know because my brother owned a 201. The wind almost always favored 27 unless it was raining at which time it swung around to 9. Well, this day it was sprinkling a little bit so in comes the guy in the Mooney and he goes screaming past our spot which was about midway and gets our attention enough to go outside and watch as he slams it down and locks up the brakes.

Smoke, blown tires as he got to the end of the runway and crossed the culvert, picking up a fence along the way. Across the road and over another ditch that shoved the right main gear through the wing. Picked up another fence then headed up the hill doing a slow pirouette to the right, down the other side and out onto the 9th green at the golf course.

"Whoa!" I said to Curt, "Did you see that?"
"Yup" said Curt so we went into the office, filled our coffee cups and walked down to the golf course.

The guy wasn't hurt, Mooneys are pretty stout, but that was one of the most spectacularly botched downwind landings I've ever seen.
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Dear Odin, if I ever wreck please let my rescuers not need to stop at the coffee pot first.
 
Dear Baal, if I ever wreck please let me not go through 3 fences, a culvert, a ditch, over a road and wind up on a golf course..
 
Jay Honeck said:
This is the second (or third) comment about how someone should warn the pilot that he's landing downwind.

Do you guys really sit around the airport with your handheld on at all times? Mine lives in a pocket inside the plane, and the batteries are probably dead since last Oshkosh, which is the only place I ever use it.

In the instance I describe, there was certainly no opportunity to warn anyone, even if I had felt the need to say anything. IMHO there is nothing inherently unsafe about landing downwind at an otherwise empty airport. The pilot has that throttle thingy in his hand, and can always go around if need be -- which is exactly what he did.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
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Heck with the radio, you should have driven your truck onto the runway and blocked the landing! :no::no::no::no::no:
 
Alexb2000 said:
Great comment. This combined with most pilots coming in 10-20 knots fast = looooong float.
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There is also a tendency to come into the flare with more excess airspeed when landing in a tailwind if you use your "normal" power setting and approach angle of descent. IME this more than anything is why tailwind landings often involve touching down a long ways from the beginning of the runway. IOW the mistakes usually begin early in the approach and get worse from there.
 
I was with a couple buddies last year, both students. We watched a Warrior land with a tailwind. Both students gasped, "He...he's landing with a tailwind!!!! Think of the children!!!" or something similar. I told them to relax, that guy's hangar is at the far end of the rwy, and he must have determined the tailwind wasn't that bad, and he'd be able to roll to a stop right in front of his hangar. Which is what he did.

Now, that guy's buddy, who was following right behind in some kind of experimental, didn't have that kind of foresight. He floated nearly to the end of the rwy before he went around. Next try he planted it about a third of the way down, bounced, floated to the end and went around again. This time, on downwind, the first guy got on the radio to mention the tailwind. Second guy said, "So THAT'S why I was having so much trouble!" And yes, the windsock was right next to the rwy.
 
I think the only time I got on the radio to give a wind comment was when I was tying down a plane under a shed hangar. I had my handheld on for some reason. The sky really got dark fast, and a gust front blew through. The wind changed direction almost 90 deg in a few seconds and the windsock started blowing straight out. A CFI buddy and his student were racing back and announced for what, until a couple seconds earlier, would have been the favored rwy. I let him know the winds had changed and he swerved over to the intersecting rwy. They got tied down and indoors just as the rain hit.
 
Ohhhhh, that reminds me of a time I saved a plane....although not for winds.

I was in upper Michigan somewhere on the coast. We landed on rwy 9 and parked at the end at the FBO. As we were shutting down I heard a Corporate Jet coming in and announce rwy 27. Winds were light and that would be fine except there were about 50 Billion birds swarming at the end of 9 right in front of us. I had never seen such a thing. They were a mass of birds in a feeding frenzy...just hovering right there on approach to 27.

I delayed the shutdown and informed the inbound jet of the situation. They circled for 9 and tied up with the mass of birds still there. The jet pilot thanked me. Those birds were not on the ASOS...go figure. He would have had a real issue if he landed on 27.

I guess this post ties into the thread in the sense that it is sometimes appropriate to advise a fellow pilot of a better runway...
 
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Captain said:
I delayed the shutdown and informed the inbound jet of the situation. They circled for 9 and tied up with the mass of birds still there. The jet pilot thanked me.
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That was very considerate of you, I'd have thanked you heartily as well.
Those birds were not on the ASOS...go figure.
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ASOS reports birds???
I guess this post ties into the thread in the sense that it is sometimes appropriate to advise a fellow pilot of a better runway...
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Technically your story and the ones about recent abrupt wind shifts fall into the category of alerting fellow pilots about unexpected hazards, something we should all be trained to do. I see this as something much different than just recommending a different runway which might be "underappreciated" by some pilots.
 
Birds not on ASOS...it was a joke.

Recommending runways to other pilots: Yeah, I'd never do it for ordinary issues like winds being as advertised. But for something special like the 'wall of birds' that a pilot wouldn't otherwise know about I see no problem letting a fellow aviator know in advance and let them make their own decisions based on all available information.
 
gismo said:
Technically your story and the ones about recent abrupt wind shifts fall into the category of alerting fellow pilots about unexpected hazards, something we should all be trained to do. I see this as something much different than just recommending a different runway which might be "underappreciated" by some pilots.
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I've typically only made reports to other pilots without a request when I thought it was something safety related, or to alleviate a safety concern they had (my assumption based on their radio communication).

It is definitely much nicer to get those reports than find out the hard way, especially with something like a flock of birds.

Always annoys me that they don't file flight plans and refuse to talk to ATC.
 
Tail wind landing is one of those things that should be practiced on occasion, before you get forced to do one.
 
Captain said:
Birds not on ASOS...it was a joke.
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One can always dream.:D

Recommending runways to other pilots: Yeah, I'd never do it for ordinary issues like winds being as advertised. But for something special like the 'wall of birds' that a pilot wouldn't otherwise know about I see no problem letting a fellow aviator know in advance and let them make their own decisions based on all available information.
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FWIW, I completely agree.
 
Had a dyslexic moment on a sort airstrip with a 10 knot tailwind once upon a time. Landed it though, a little far, but not dangerously so. The Free Bird is a marvelous thing.

Not a bad thing to be able to do. Plenty of one-way strips where I live.
 
The wind was blowing 10 knots right down the runway 12 at Blue Ridge yesterday. A lance ahead of me landed on 30 I suppose because he always lands on 30 (that's the usual prevailing wind direction). A few minutes later I went around the pattern for 12 noting that the socks definitely did agree with the AWOS.

While I was tanking up we watched the same plane taxi out and takeoff downwind again (and then turned right in the left traffic pattern).
 
flyingron said:
The wind was blowing 10 knots right down the runway 12 at Blue Ridge yesterday. A lance ahead of me landed on 30 I suppose because he always lands on 30 (that's the usual prevailing wind direction). A few minutes later I went around the pattern for 12 noting that the socks definitely did agree with the AWOS.

While I was tanking up we watched the same plane taxi out and takeoff downwind again (and then turned right in the left traffic pattern).
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He must be used to flying a twin. lol

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
 
One of the airports at which I routinely land has no parallel taxiways, so you have to back taxi on the runway to the FBO which is all the way at the end of the field.

I consider it a one-way strip so long as no one is in the pattern and the tailwind is under 10 knots. Even with some seriously tall trees off the end I can do it no problem. The Free Bird is a wonderful machine.
 
There is a skydiving operation at the far end of my airport. The jump plane always takes off on 12 and lands on 30 regardless of the wind.
 
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