La Revolution...

[SkyHog]

Why isn't this in Spin Zone? Because its not political, and its not argumentative, nor likely to become highly charged - its a mere question of "How much is too much," and "Will we ever do anything?"

This isn't tin foil hat stuff, this is real life stuff now. I think we may have let the government go too far, and because by and large, we are too lazy and complacent to do anything about it, I don't know that we'll ever have liberty again...some examples of our lost freedoms:

1. The 5th Amendment, significantly changed to allow a jury to hear that your choice to not incriminate yourself, may, in fact, be used as proof that you are guilty (http://www.naag.org/right-to-remain-silent-the-supreme-court-clarifies-miranda.php)
2. Same reference as above - simply not answering questions is not, in and of itself, execution of your 5th amendment rights
3. FBI can detain a person and forcefully search their possessions based on grounds as simple as "He was traveling from west to east." - http://www.theatlantic.com/national...-security-state-more-airplane-stories/276018/
4. Refusing to be illegally detained and searched by the Transportation Security Administration is considered a crime, despite having no probable cause or reasonable suspicion aside from the refused search itself - a clear violation of the 4th amendment http://www.infowars.com/mom-found-guilty-by-court-after-refusing-tsa-pat-down-on-daughter/
5. The DOJ secures records of Associated Press phone calls, clearly violating the First Amendment - http://bigstory.ap.org/article/govt-obtains-wide-ap-phone-records-probe
6. The White House uses drone attacks on US Citizens - http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/may/22/white-house-drone-strikes-us-citizens
7. The FAA demands payment for services provided, despite already being paid for those services through taxes: http://www.generalaviationnews.com/...-faa-to-cover-controller-expenses-at-oshkosh/
8. Police repeatedly, across the country, forcefully enter the wrong home, and often kill occupants, animals, and destroy property in those homes....no one does anything to prevent these intrustions - http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/bungling-cops-raid-wrong-home-117487
9. Police have too much power - its not to say that all cops are bad, they're not, but the fact that they have so much power allows those that are not bad to abuse that power - significantly reducing their power and authority would curb the effect of bad cops, and not inhibit the ability to protect for the goods ones.

There's a lot more - but they're a bit too politically divisive, so I won't go there. Instead, I ask, what, if anything, can we do about it? When will we ever do anything about it?

 

[ClimbnSink]

its not to say that all cops are bad

If they are not all bad where are the ones quitting over the puppy shootings and all the other unconstitutional crap they see their coworkers do every day? The problem is summed up in what you wrote, giving a free pass to the tip of the spear d'bags. Not just the cops, recently there was an outpouring of love for the pink shirt parasites, cause they are just doing their jobs. Get on the train *******, no offense just my job ma'am.

 

[Skylane81E]

If they are not all bad where are the ones quitting over the puppy shootings and all the other unconstitutional crap they see their coworkers do every day? The problem is summed up in what you wrote, giving a free pass to the tip of the spear d'bags. Not just the cops, recently there was an outpouring of love for the pink shirt parasites, cause they are just doing their jobs. Get on the train *******, no offense just my job ma'am.

If the good ones quit their jobs it seems to me that there would be no good ones left after a short while, is that what you want?

 

[steingar]

There are simple ways to have non-violent revolutions in this nation. They're called elections.

 

[poadeleted21]

There are simple ways to have non-violent revolutions in this nation. They're called elections.

We're one candidate away from having a dictator.

voting is like being asked if you want punched in the face or crotch.

 

[steingar]

We're one candidate away from having a dictator.

voting is like being asked if you want punched in the face or crotch.

Then run. Get someone you think could do the job and get them to run. Do something other than sitting on your six and complaining.

The problem is simply this. A lot of the administration's policies that are anathema to this group are actually quite popular. People like the TSA, they feel it keeps them safe. Americans are deeply divided about the NSA activities, many think its OK if they're stopping terrorists. No one gives a shiny rat's assay if some pilots get stopped. No one.

At the end of the day the government is going to do the thing that most of the people want, and most of the people ain't us.

 

[ClimbnSink]

If the good ones quit their jobs it seems to me that there would be no good ones left after a short while, is that what you want?

If they are keeping their mouths shut what difference does it make if they quit?

 

[Norman]

Sure wish there were some simple answers, but there aren't. The sheep are fat dumb and happy in their ignorance.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

There are simple ways to have non-violent revolutions in this nation. They're called elections.

Doesn't work when the majority has shown by their votes that they don't care about liberty, much less actually doing something about it.

Make sure they're fed and housed and they'll vote for whoever is keeping them in their form of existence.

 

[poadeleted21]

Then run. Get someone you think could do the job and get them to run. Do something other than sitting on your six and complaining.

The problem is simply this. A lot of the administration's policies that are anathema to this group are actually quite popular. People like the TSA, they feel it keeps them safe. Americans are deeply divided about the NSA activities, many think its OK if they're stopping terrorists. No one gives a shiny rat's assay if some pilots get stopped. No one.

At the end of the day the government is going to do the thing that most of the people want, and most of the people ain't us.

People like me want nothing to do with being an elected official... that's the problem.

Mob rule is the problem.... wait till "Only the strong survive" catches on.

 

[Jim Logajan]

There are simple ways to have non-violent revolutions in this nation. They're called elections.

Too true - worked in March 1933 in Germany. Quite a revolution - though not what you'd expect, eh?

Also worked in November 1917 in Russia. Sort of.

Elections in this country have problems similar to those of, say, Iran. The rules are set up to impede the entry of anyone not aligned with the existing power establishment. Just ask any third party candidate for president the kinds of hoops and Catch-22-like rules that have to follow to get on the ballot in many states.

 

[N801BH]

Too true - worked in March 1933 in Germany. Quite a revolution - though not what you'd expect, eh?

Also worked in November 1917 in Russia. Sort of.

Elections in this country have problems similar to those of, say, Iran. The rules are set up to impede the entry of anyone not aligned with the existing power establishment. Just ask any third party candidate for president the kinds of hoops and Catch-22-like rules that have to follow to get on the ballot in many states.

Even local and state elections are rigged in favor of people have been "blessed" by the party..... You have a VERY slim chance of getting elected if you have not danced with the good ol boys..

 

[RotorAndWing]

There are simple ways to have non-violent revolutions in this nation. They're called elections.

"Those who vote decide nothing. Those who count the vote decide everything." ---- Joseph Stalin

 

[Norman]

"Those who vote decide nothing. Those who count the vote decide everything." ---- Joseph Stalin

Proven true in Washington State last election. A poll worker was found guilty of forging votes.

 

[timwinters]

We could kick off the revolution next March in NE Alabama and meet a few miles west of Guntersville.

And call the movement...

The Arab Spring.

 

[Herman vanOoijen]

Unfortunately it looks like the average voter has absolutely no clue what he or she is voting for, as they have not bothered to learn what the issues are. They are simply lazy and will vote for anyone who just looks or sounds like them. No critical thinking is involved.

 

[Ted]

The problem is simply this. A lot of the administration's policies that are anathema to this group are actually quite popular. People like the TSA, they feel it keeps them safe. Americans are deeply divided about the NSA activities, many think its OK if they're stopping terrorists. No one gives a shiny rat's assay if some pilots get stopped. No one.

At the end of the day the government is going to do the thing that most of the people want, and most of the people ain't us.

Steingar is dead on with this. While most of us in our world are pro-liberty, most of the rest of the country disagrees with us.

 

[N801BH]

Unfortunately it looks like the average voter has absolutely no clue what he or she is voting for, as the they have not bothered to learn what the issues are. They are simply lazy and will vote for anyone who just looks or sounds like them. No critical thinking is involved.

When more then 50% of the voters get free food stamps, welfare, free Obama phones, free legal, free housing and a host of other "social" programs there is NO way they would vote for anyone else..

 

[Jay Honeck]

Steingar is dead on with this. While most of us in our world are pro-liberty, most of the rest of the country disagrees with us.

This confuses me. Literally every, single person I talk to -- regardless of socio-economic background, and I see a LOT of people in the hotel business -- is disgusted with our current government, and the police state they have built. They want change, they know things are going badly, and many acknowledge that the system is heading toward inevitable collapse.

Yet, polls continue to show slightly over half the country supports the current regime's policies. How is this possible?

Can the pollsters have been bought off? Is the data we're seeing bogus? How would we know?

If there are, say, 20 polling companies in the US, is it possible for them to have been bought off? Again, how would we know?

 

[RotorAndWing]

This confuses me. Literally every, single person I talk to -- regardless of socio-economic background, and I see a LOT of people in the hotel business -- is disgusted with our current government, and the police state they have built. They want change, they know things are going badly, and many acknowledge that the system is heading toward inevitable collapse.

Yet, polls continue to show slightly over half the country supports the current regime's policies. How is this possible?

Can the pollsters have been bought off? Is the data we're seeing bogus? How would we know?

If there are, say, 20 polling companies in the US, is it possible for them to have been bought off? Again, how would we know?

When most people are asked "Would you be in favor of voting out the current members of congress and replacing them" the answer is "Yes!"

Then when asked "Would you be willing to vote out your senators and congressman" the answer is "No, I think they are doing a good job".

Then you have those who complain about government. When asked if they voted in the last election the answer is "No, there's no point".

Apathy rules.

 

[wabower]

Are the people you talk to public sector workers and retirees, union members or those receiving government benefits?

It's well known that pollsters cook the books, the only difference is that the main-stream media only uses those from the side they like.

This confuses me. Literally every, single person I talk to -- regardless of socio-economic background, and I see a LOT of people in the hotel business -- is disgusted with our current government, and the police state they have built. They want change, they know things are going badly, and many acknowledge that the system is heading toward inevitable collapse.

Yet, polls continue to show slightly over half the country supports the current regime's policies. How is this possible?

Can the pollsters have been bought off? Is the data we're seeing bogus? How would we know?

If there are, say, 20 polling companies in the US, is it possible for them to have been bought off? Again, how would we know?

 

[Florida Cracker]

Unfortunately it looks like the average voter has absolutely no clue what he or she is voting for, as the they have not bothered to learn what the issues are. They are simply lazy and will vote for anyone who just looks or sounds like them. No critical thinking is involved.

Two governors, riding on AF-1, supposedly heard LBJ claim he would have black Amercian's voting democrat for the next 200 years, when he pushed through his great society plantation plans. When you google it, you get lots of commentary but that type of crude, crap was LBJ through and through. He was a sleazy, tyrant.

As for breaking the mold, the government is going bankrupt. It will happen and just like the USSR, before they collasped, there is a small group, looting the treasury and another group getting filthy rich as it empties. Combined, they will probably hasten the collapse, enrich a small .0001% and destroy the middle class, completely.

The collapse will bring about a sudden dramatic end to many forms of generational dependency

When that happens, all those insane federal regulations and federal court rulings will be void and states will have to pick up the pieces and figure out how to keep going. Without the federal gorilla on our backs. States will probably fair well, with the exception of those under the control of the ruling class, who keep the poor and ignorant, Poor and ignorant. Mass, Cal, NY and few other places come to mind, though NY and Cal have the space and ability to become self sustaining quite fast, if they turn off the social welfare spigots.

It won't be is year, or next, but the country will go broke.

 

[Jim Logajan]

I think it is a mistake to think that the majority aren't able to vote for freedom over self-reward at the expense of others. Consider:

Gallop found that many demographic markers of Tea Party members were pretty much in line with those of the general public:

http://radioviceonline.com/gallup-tea-party-demographics-represent-mainstream-america/

A lot of you may remember that the Tea Party did pretty well in bringing the House under Republican control. I suspect most of them probably campaigned on a promise to not compromise their principles once elected. As far as I can tell, they've been attacked for actually sticking to their promises - politicians are traditionally expected to dicker.

Based on past PoA polls and threads, I believe the membership of PoA tends to have more conservatives and libertarians than liberals or populists. Also no doubt a bunch who consider themselves realists and pragmatists. So I expect there will be much agreement on generalities, but I don't expect much else to result.

Beats me how to take advantage of the slight conservative tilt of the population (not as pronounced as on PoA) to roll back the reach and independence that the regulatory state now enjoys.

 

[douglas393]

Maybe this is spin zone material, but if you remove all the retoric the country is really a one party country. There is little difference between the democrats and the republicans. The goals of the parties is to stay in power so as to enrich their pocketbooks, nothing more nothing less. They are not truly interested in the prospects of the country nor the populace of the country. What is a democratic position and opposed by the republicans today will become a republican position and opposed by the democrats tomorrow. Just look at the Bush's war on terror becoming Obama's war on terror. Look at the tactics of Bush done to keep the country safe from the tactics of Obama to keep the country safe. Obamacare was essentially a plan first floated by Reagan.

The country is being sold to the highest bidder, and the losers are US.

Just my opinion.

 

[Ted]

This confuses me. Literally every, single person I talk to -- regardless of socio-economic background, and I see a LOT of people in the hotel business -- is disgusted with our current government, and the police state they have built. They want change, they know things are going badly, and many acknowledge that the system is heading toward inevitable collapse.

Yet, polls continue to show slightly over half the country supports the current regime's policies. How is this possible?

Can the pollsters have been bought off? Is the data we're seeing bogus? How would we know?

If there are, say, 20 polling companies in the US, is it possible for them to have been bought off? Again, how would we know?

The people that you and I talk to are mostly the folks who aren't the 47% that Romney referred to. There are plenty of folks we don't meet, and those make up the ones that bias it. Plus, as Wayne said, cooking the books.

 

[SCCutler]

Principal issue is not the policies and positions of the dominant political parties; it is, rather, the continued rise in the power and scope of the bureaucratic class, the agencies whose power and control increase through fear and rulemaking authority.

Presidents and members of congress come and go; bureaucracies live forever, and they accrete power with each passing day.

 

[LandSickness]

“The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all.” ― G.K. Chesterton

 

[Florida Cracker]

Principal issue is not the policies and positions of the dominant political parties; it is, rather, the continued rise in the power and scope of the bureaucratic class, the agencies whose power and control increase through fear and rulemaking authority.

Presidents and members of congress come and go; bureaucracies live forever, and they accrete power with each passing day.

The real purpose of the federal government is to insure its survival and enhance its power.

 

[cherokeeflyboy]

Next time they give you all that civic bull**** about voting, keep in mind that Hitler was elected in a full, free democratic election..

 

[rwellner98]

Why isn't this in Spin Zone?

Good question.

Who can move it?

 

[Threefingeredjack]

When more then 50% of the voters get free food stamps, welfare, free Obama phones, free legal, free housing and a host of other "social" programs there is NO way they would vote for anyone else..

Really? The actual figure on welfare is 4.1% of the US population, and 15% of the total population get food stamps. Accurate information makes for informed debate. Wildly inflated numbers only weakens your argument.

 

[Ghery]

"Those who vote decide nothing. Those who count the vote decide everything." ---- Joseph Stalin

Proven true in Washington State last election. A poll worker was found guilty of forging votes.

True in Washington state in 2004. Queen Christine was selected, not elected.

Out of about 3,000,000 votes cast, the Republican won by about 200 votes. Yes, 200 out of 3,000,000. An automatic re-count was mandated. 38 of the 39 counties in the state returned EXACTLY the same vote count. King County (Seattle) added votes to their total, but still not quite enough to get the gargoyle into the governor's mansion. Al Gore provided funds from his campaign chest to pay for a hand re-count. 38 of the 39 counties returned exactly the same vote count. King County "found" some more ballots and this time Queen Christine was selected as Governor of the state of Washington. Tell me there wasn't fraud in King County (the new Cook County). Go ahead, with a straight face tell me they didn't cheat.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Really? The actual figure on welfare is 4.1% of the US population, and 15% of the total population get food stamps. Accurate information makes for informed debate. Wildly inflated numbers only weakens your argument.

The percentage of Americans with a family member receiving federal money is at an all-time high -- 49%.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/files/2012/09/NA-BQ884_Number_E_20120525153402.jpg

Now add in the number who work for the government, or have family members who work for the government.

Now add in contractors who depend on the government for work. Now add in the university professors who receive "grants".

We are already WAY beyond 50% of Americans who benefit from the gross expansion of government. Why do you think the debt keeps growing?

 

[N801BH]

Really? The actual figure on welfare is 4.1% of the US population, and 15% of the total population get food stamps. Accurate information makes for informed debate. Wildly inflated numbers only weakens your argument.

To clarify my point.... 50% of the population get some form of government subsidies, hand outs or some other type of free stuff... And keep in mind 48% do not pay a DIME in Federal Income Tax.... Altho they enjoy national security, interstate road system, education, and a huge chunk of other stuff... The rest of us get to pay for the 48 %..You know what that pays for.... Your PAYCHECK..... I honestly appreciate your service but when the money dries up I hope all the well paid federal workers have a nest egg,, cause if they don't there is gonna be 15 million pi$$ed off people....

 

[Jim Logajan]

To clarify my point.... 50% of the population get some form of government subsidies, hand outs or some other type of free stuff... And keep in mind 48% do not pay a DIME in Federal Income Tax....

I'm a libertarian and vote Libertarian, so it pains me to disagree with some of what you wrote, but I should point out that although many may not pay any income tax, there are no low-income exceptions to paying FICA or Medicare payments. If you have any income at all you have to send some to the government.

Altho they enjoy national security, interstate road system, education, and a huge chunk of other stuff...

Again some disagreement - gas taxes are supposed to pay for roads, so if you can afford the gas to ride on them, you're helping pay for them regardless of your income tax status.

In a lot of places education is paid for by real estate taxes, so if you rent or own a place to keep the rain off your head, one way or another you pay for education regardless of your income tax status.

If you live where there are sales taxes, then again you get taxed regardless of your income tax status.

Other government services ... yeah, a lot of that is paid for by income taxes on the wealthy.

Meanwhile - the general complaint of over-reaching and independent bureaucracy is legitimate - even supreme court justice Roberts has noted the problem:

One of the principal authors of the Constitution famously wrote that the “accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary, in the same hands, . . . may justly be pronounced the very definition of tyranny.” The Federalist No. 47, p. 324 (J. Cooke ed. 1961) (J. Madison). Although modern administrative agencies fit most comfortably within the Executive Branch, as a practical matter they exercise legislative power, by promulgating regulations with the force of law; executive power, by policing compliance with those regulations; and judicial power, by adjudicating enforcement actions and imposing sanctions on those found to have violated their rules. The accumulation of these powers in the same hands is not an occasional or isolated exception to the constitutional plan; it is a central feature of modern American government.
The administrative state “wields vast power and touches almost every aspect of daily life.” Free Enterprise Fund v. Public Company Accounting Oversight Bd., 561 U. S. ___, ___ (2010) (slip op., at 18). The Framers could hardly have envisioned today’s “vast and varied federal bureaucracy”and the authority administrative agencies now hold over our economic, social, and political activities. Ibid. “[T]he administrative state with its reams of regulations would leave them rubbing their eyes.” Alden v. Maine, 527 U. S. 706, 807 (1999) (Souter, J., dissenting), quoted in Federal Maritime Comm’n v. South Carolina Ports Authority, 535
U. S. 743, 755 (2002). And the federal bureaucracy continues to grow; in the last 15 years, Congress has launched more than 50 new agencies. Compare Office of the Federal Register, United States Government Manual 1997/1998, with Office of the Federal Register, United States Government Manual 2012. And more are on the way.
​

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/11-1545_1b7d.pdf

Large, stifling, and enduring bureaucracies are hardly new with modern governments - ancient Egypt, ancient China, the Roman Empire all come to my mind as being noted for having a large bureaucracies. I suspect they often employed the largest contingent of literate people within those realms (outside the religious orders.)

Maybe a few hundred years hence the FAA or its future namesake will crumble under the load of trying to regulate starships using unapproved non-AN bolts on warp drives.

 

[N801BH]

.....
In a lot of places education is paid for by real estate taxes, so if you rent or own a place to keep the rain off your head, one way or another you pay for education regardless of your income tax status.

If you live where there are sales taxes, then again you get taxed regardless of your income tax status.

Other government services ... yeah, a lot of that is paid for by income taxes on the wealthy.

.

..

If you dig a bit deeper, the fact is that 10's of million of people live in Section 8 housing.... They get FREE housing and don't pay a DIME in Real Estate taxes, which fund education.. So they don't pay a dime for their kids schooling. And most of their kids get FREE breakfast, FREE lunch, dinner and assorted junk food is paid for with food stamps...

For instance.... The last time I went grocery shopping I happened to end up behind an extremely overweight young mother with two babies,,,, She cound NOT speak a word of english... As she unloaded her cart in the check out lane there was a 10 lb standing rib roast, a dozen lobsters, a couple of cases of coke, 4- 1/2 gallons of Breyers Ice Cream, several Hageen Daaz pints and a pile of other stuff... Total bill was 412.00 or so. She whips out this credit card and the clerk scans it.. I say to my self, "how the heck did she get a credit limit that high"

They bag her groceries and she motions for the bag boy to push her cart outside. So , there I am, bagging my own groceries and they are ringing up my stuff I politely ask the clerk how did that credit card pass the smell test for being good... She says " Oh no sir,,, That is a USDA food stamp debit card" ... As I stand there starting to simmer I then ask what about the prime rib? Oh that is meat she says ,,, it is allowed.. What about the lobsters ? That is considered meat too and is also allowed she answers.... So, what about the premium Breyers and Hageen Daaz ice cream... the clerk says the USDA considers that a dairy product and it is allowed too.... She did have to pay for the large bundle of toilet paper, to which she whipped out a 100 dollar bill and got back 91 bucks in change....

To pour gas on the fire, as I go outside to put my stuff in my PU truck it so happens she is parked next to me.. There were two more kids waiting in the BRAND new Surburban with a sticker in the window that showed a sales price of 53,000.00 +...... I really had to bite my tongue hard so as not to vent on her..... You want to talk about abusing the system,,,, This woman was the poster child for milking the system to the MAX...

Rant off....

 

[timwinters]

Do you really expect us to believe that story Ben?

You need to enter that one in a creative writing contest, seriously...bravo!

 

[poadeleted21]

Do you really expect us to believe that story Ben?

You need to enter that one in a creative writing contest, seriously...bravo!

I watched a very similar episode at the local hoggly woggly last week, I was so ****ed off, my wife was trying to calm me down.... THEN I watched as they turned into the liquor store. I'm sure my wife thought my head was going to explode.

 

[steingar]

I do personally know some folks on welfare, and they aren't eating lobster or driving new vehicles.

 

[poadeleted21]

I do personally know some folks on welfare, and they aren't eating lobster or driving new vehicles.

Nope but they're flush enough with cash to smoke Marlboros and chug bud light. The folks I encounterd last week spent 250 bucks on name brand groceries, then whipped out a WIC check for the baby supplies. Went over their government funding by a couple of items and put the food back instead of actually whipping out cash to pay for it. They then loaded up in a car nicer than my wife drives and went D-> to the liquor store.