KWVI Watsonville MId Air, Multiple Fatalities

47PILOT said:
My money’s on the 340 guy being in the losers corner when it’s all said and done
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And a jury, if it comes to that, will see the 340 owner likely has a lot more money than the guy flying a rented 152.
 
PaulS said:
Personally I wouldn't turn in front of someone calling out a 3 mile final at an uncontrolled airport knowing what I know. It's too much of a crap shoot, why take the chance?
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I wouldn't either, for two reasons, (1) is the courteous thing to do and (2) when you extend your downwind you're still next in line to enter the final. You clearly see the aircraft you're following and time the turn accordingly - you now have the ROW as long as you don't try to force the twin off the runway.
 
47PILOT said:
now let’s put a tower at this airport. It now becomes a class D airport. Every single class D airport I’ve flowed at will regularly turn you in front of 3 mile final traffic, and sometimes even 2 mile traffic. Do you know why that is? Because no jacka$$ ever enters the pattern at 200kts.
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No, it works because the tower has a pretty good idea where the airplanes are. Lots of airplanes enter a tower-controlled airport pattern at 200 knots.
 
And for the record, I do appreciate my participation in that debacle being deleted. Wrong place for it.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Beechjets, Hawkers, Falcons, and Citations that I’m directly aware of.
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I'd really like you to show me in their operating manuals where it says to use an approach speed of 200 kts.

I've flown patterns and approaches a good number of busy air carrier/large business jet airports and I'm not getting run over by Boeings when I fly an approach at 120 kts in a 182.

There is no reason for anyone to be blasting into a pattern at 180 kts.
 
dbahn said:
I wouldn't either, for two reasons, (1) is the courteous thing to do and (2) when you extend your downwind you're still next in line to enter the final. You clearly see the aircraft you're following and time the turn accordingly - you now have the ROW as long as you don't try to force the twin off the runway.
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What if you're in a glider?
 
skyking3286 said:
Go arounds are taught to follow the guide for overtaking, to pass on the right. That allows the pilot to keep the conflicting traffic in view without aircraft structures blocking. The fact that the left wing was pulled off says the C152 was using a proper procedure in giving way to a plane on final. Going left would put you over the ramps and hangars. If the Cessna 340 broke off the approach I would have expected a straight out climb, given the behavior exhibited on his final. Straight ahead at full throttle. Any other direction would require traffic in sight.
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Skoomeg also made a good comment early about what's even possible. the 152 guy hanging 30-40 degrees of flaps out at 55 kts with the engine at idle and carb heat on has HOW MUCH ability to get out of the way? Even if we assume that as soon as he called go around he slammed the carb heat in and went balls to the wall on the throttle, he's got what, 100 FPM climb starting? The 340 guy could have put one pinky of backpressure on the yoke and jerked back up to pattern altitute in a a second, stepped a few hundred feet right, and flown to the right of the runway on an upwind, and then turned crosswind after deconflicting with the guy taking off ahead of him. He might also have been terribly inconvenienced by needing to pull the throttles back from 30" of MP to something like 15", but he can do that after he pulls the stick back. I doubt he'd stall with that much speed to climb 500'

I'm not saying the 150 guy should have turned base, I'm just saying that at the point they both figured out they were approaching the threshold, there wasn't a hell of a lot a slow, dirty 150 can do to move itself.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
I'd really like you to show me in their operating manuals where it says to use an approach speed of 200 kts.

I've flown patterns and approaches a good number of busy air carrier/large business jet airports and I'm not getting run over by Boeings when I fly an approach at 120 kts in a 182.

There is no reason for anyone to be blasting into a pattern at 180 kts.
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I’d really like you to show me in their operating manuals where it says otherwise.

the reason you’re not getting run over is that it’s normally only done where there isn’t a conflict.
 
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MIFlyer said:
The 340 guy could have put one pinky of backpressure on the yoke and jerked back up to pattern altitute in a a second, stepped a few hundred feet right, and flown to the right of the runway on an upwind, and then turned crosswind after deconflicting with the guy taking off ahead of him.
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Don’t forget the 182 occupying the space to the right of the runway on an upwind. In fact, interestingly, if the 172 over the runway had done a normal climbout, they would have come very close to hitting that 182 at almost exactly the same moment as the collision that did occur.
 
Flying Keys said:
Don’t forget the 182 occupying the space to the right of the runway on an upwind. In fact, interestingly, if the 172 over the runway had done a normal climbout, they would have come very close to hitting that 182 at almost exactly the same moment as the collision that did occur.
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Really interesting point. the space was getting busy so the things you can change are speed (while still maintaining controllability) and altitude. Not sure where the ceiling is above the field for controlled airspace, but perhaps putting some altitude in would buy some time to evaluate who is where. Actually, I just glanced at the chart, if I read it correctly, it was clear up to 18,000 feet above the airport without violating anyone's airspace.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I’d really like you to show me in their operating manuals where it says otherwise.

the reason you’re not getting run over is that it’s only done where there isn’t a conflict.
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The reason I'm not getting run over is because a Boeing/Airbus is typically approaching at around 130-140 kts, so ATC doesn't need a huge gap for a 10-20 kt speed differential.

https://caisatech.net/uploads/XXI_3_HAWKER_H51_H25B_O_POM_R5_FEB2012.pdf
Hawker 800, see page 765. "Flying in the traffic pattern should be at 160 KIAS with air brakes closed, flaps 15° and landing gear lowered."

Again, show me a common GA plane that is supposed to be flying 200 kts in the traffic pattern in normal operations and I'll owe you a beer.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
The reason I'm not getting run over is because a Boeing/Airbus is typically approaching at around 130-140 kts, so ATC doesn't need a huge gap for a 10-20 kt speed differential.

https://caisatech.net/uploads/XXI_3_HAWKER_H51_H25B_O_POM_R5_FEB2012.pdf
Hawker 800, see page 765. "Flying in the traffic pattern should be at 160 KIAS with air brakes closed, flaps 15° and landing gear lowered."

Again, show me a common GA plane that is supposed to be flying 200 kts in the traffic pattern in normal operations and I'll owe you a beer.
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“Should”, “flaps 15”, and “landing gear lowered” being operative terms.

When ATC says, “keep your speed up, you’re number one for the runway”, I don’t think following a 182 is going to be a problem.
 
MauleSkinner said:
“Should”, “flaps 15”, and “landing gear lowered” being operative terms.
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Otherwise known as a standard configuration for operating in an airport traffic pattern, especially for a jet.

"Should" is the correct word to use when "shall" or "must" implies that horrible things will happen if you're at 159 or 161 KIAS.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
Otherwise known as a standard configuration for operating in an airport traffic pattern, especially for a jet.

"Should" is the correct word to use when "shall" or "must" implies that horrible things will happen if you're at 159 or 161 KIAS.
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Yup..and clearly 120 it’s is the speed that Cessna says a 182 “should” fly in the pattern.

Clearly you are unaware of how other people operate their airplanes, and unfortunately are choosing to remain so.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
I'd really like you to show me in their operating manuals where it says to use an approach speed of 200 kts.

I've flown patterns and approaches a good number of busy air carrier/large business jet airports and I'm not getting run over by Boeings when I fly an approach at 120 kts in a 182.

There is no reason for anyone to be blasting into a pattern at 180 kts.
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I fly into a busy delta pretty regularly. There are biz jets flying downwinds at 200+ knots over the ground all the time. I've had to turn 90 degrees to avoid flying into their paths. One pilot of one of these missiles piped up after I made a 90 degree turn complaining she got an RA as she passed a mile and half on my left. The controller said, "sorry about that, did you have to react". The pilot said "no, I'm just letting you know", the controller said "thanks". I was doing what I was instructed to do. ATC tends to keep ifr aircraft high until the last minute, then clears them for a visual. My experience with these jets is they don't like to slow down until they have to.
 
MIFlyer said:
Really interesting point. the space was getting busy so the things you can change are speed (while still maintaining controllability) and altitude. Not sure where the ceiling is above the field for controlled airspace, but perhaps putting some altitude in would buy some time to evaluate who is where. Actually, I just glanced at the chart, if I read it correctly, it was clear up to 18,000 feet above the airport without violating anyone's airspace.
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WVI is class G at the surface and class E starting at 700 AGL, which only matters to VFR pilots if they’re avoiding clouds or otherwise encountering IMC. As you were saying, outside of IFR flight, full-time, positive controlled airspace doesn’t begin until class A airspace at 18,000 MSL.
 
PaulS said:
I fly into a busy delta pretty regularly. There are biz jets flying downwinds at 200+ knots over the ground all the time. I've had to turn 90 degrees to avoid flying into their paths. One pilot of one of these missiles piped up after I made a 90 degree turn complaining she got an RA as she passed a mile and half on my left. The controller said, "sorry about that, did you have to react". The pilot said "no, I'm just letting you know", the controller said "thanks". I was doing what I was instructed to do. ATC tends to keep ifr aircraft high until the last minute, then clears them for a visual. My experience with these jets is they don't like to slow down until they have to.
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200+ knots groundspeed in class D airspace? That’s pushing it. A few weeks ago I had to extend for a Global Express that was at 180 7 miles out, 160 at 5 miles, and 120 when I was abeam them at 2 miles. I sometimes see King Airs or PC-12s doing 160 in as close as 2-3 miles, but only when it’s not busy. Okay, air ambulances do drive in fast as well.
 
Flying Keys said:
200+ knots groundspeed in class D airspace? That’s pushing it. A few weeks ago I had to extend for a Global Express that was at 180 7 miles out, 160 at 5 miles, and 120 when I was abeam them at 2 miles. I sometimes see King Airs or PC-12s doing 160 in as close as 2-3 miles, but only when it’s not busy. Okay, air ambulances do drive in fast as well.
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They are moving, on downwind, 1000 or 1500 agl. Happens a lot. Typically the tower will ask you ( small pistons) to be at pattern altitude a few miles out. I rarely have to move for them, but occasionally it happens and it increases the pucker factor. They are not flying finals this fast, but coming into the pattern, some of them really move.
 
Your 120-130 kts in your 182 is approach speed on final, farther out it may be more. Don't confuse the 200 kts speed for jets as in that close, it's some miles farther out.
Many times at the larger airports it's 170 kts until the marker or a 5 mile final.
Desending and approaching an airport, assuming it's VFR, I'm still doing 200 easy. How many miles out is that, it depends. Flaps 15 and gear speed is 220 and unless I want to yank the power levers all the way back and throw out the airbrakes, which create a lot of noise and vibrations, my speed will be near those numbers. We try not to do sudden things like that so we don't upset the pax. It's sometimes faster than what you want because of late vectoring and or desent clearance.
I know how to fly into small airports and fit in. If I'm flying a full pattern then I'm near that 160 speed, but some miles out and still desending, then I may be a lot faster than that..
Flaps 25 is 175 and flaps 45 is 165 for the Hawker 800 series. I hold at least 140 until turning final and/or adding flaps 45.
 
Aren't big / fast jets supposed to be higher than the standard TPA though?

The discussion about speeds, by itself, seems pedantic. There are multiple factors at play. If its typical for your plane to fly at 200 knots in the pattern (let's assume it is for sake of argument) than there are parameters for that so you don't run the 172 person over

All in AIM 4-3-3, bold and underline mine. Bullet 2 is most compelling. The 340 was clearly at fault in this case. If you want to blast in at a speed well above what everyone else in the pattern is doing it's on you to avoid them. That might mean not doing a straight in and if you want to fly the pattern at 200 knots you should do it higher and wider than the others.

  1. It is recommended that aircraft enter the airport traffic pattern at one of the following altitudes listed below. These altitudes should be maintained unless another traffic pattern altitude is published in the Chart Supplement U.S. or unless otherwise required by the applicable distance from cloud criteria (14 CFR Section 91.155). (See FIG 4-3-2 and FIG 4-3-3):
    1. Propeller-driven aircraft enter the traffic pattern at 1,000 feet above ground level (AGL).
    2. Large and turbine-powered aircraft enter the traffic pattern at an altitude of not less than 1,500 feet AGL or 500 feet above the established pattern altitude.
    3. Helicopters operating in the traffic pattern may fly a pattern similar to the fixed-wing aircraft pattern, but at a lower altitude (500 AGL) and closer to the runway. This pattern may be on the opposite side of the runway from fixed-wing traffic when airspeed requires or for practice power-off landings (autorotation) and if local policy permits. Landings not to the runway must avoid the flow of fixed wing traffic.
  2. A pilot may vary the size of the traffic pattern depending on the aircraft's performance characteristics. Pilots of en route aircraft should be constantly alert for aircraft in traffic patterns and avoid these areas whenever possible.
 
btw someone painfully slow is also annoying / potentially conflict inducing. Easy to hate on the jet / Cirrus / twin but it's just as frustrating when it's a busy day (controlled or not) and someone decides to do pattern work in their cub or stinson (or [insert slow cloth toy plane]) at 45 knots.. especially so when X doesn't have a radio
 
Tantalum said:
Aren't big / fast jets supposed to be higher than the standard TPA though?

The discussion about speeds, by itself, seems pedantic. There are multiple factors at play. If its typical for your plane to fly at 200 knots in the pattern (let's assume it is for sake of argument) than there are parameters for that so you don't run the 172 person over

All in AIM 4-3-3, bold and underline mine. Bullet 2 is most compelling. The 340 was clearly at fault in this case. If you want to blast in at a speed well above what everyone else in the pattern is doing it's on you to avoid them. That might mean not doing a straight in and if you want to fly the pattern at 200 knots you should do it higher and wider than the others.

  1. It is recommended that aircraft enter the airport traffic pattern at one of the following altitudes listed below. These altitudes should be maintained unless another traffic pattern altitude is published in the Chart Supplement U.S. or unless otherwise required by the applicable distance from cloud criteria (14 CFR Section 91.155). (See FIG 4-3-2 and FIG 4-3-3):
    1. Propeller-driven aircraft enter the traffic pattern at 1,000 feet above ground level (AGL).
    2. Large and turbine-powered aircraft enter the traffic pattern at an altitude of not less than 1,500 feet AGL or 500 feet above the established pattern altitude.
    3. Helicopters operating in the traffic pattern may fly a pattern similar to the fixed-wing aircraft pattern, but at a lower altitude (500 AGL) and closer to the runway. This pattern may be on the opposite side of the runway from fixed-wing traffic when airspeed requires or for practice power-off landings (autorotation) and if local policy permits. Landings not to the runway must avoid the flow of fixed wing traffic.
  2. A pilot may vary the size of the traffic pattern depending on the aircraft's performance characteristics. Pilots of en route aircraft should be constantly alert for aircraft in traffic patterns and avoid these areas whenever possible.
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All true. And combined with FAA guidance that piston airplanes should fly through the turbine pattern so they can look at everything but the turbine airplanes in that pattern, it just re-emphasizes that pilots must all remain situationally aware and look out the windows for traffic.
 
dbahn said:
Wow. Talk about ROW. That one's not the slightest bit ambiguous.
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Ive been cutoff by powered aircraft while in the pattern and flying my glider. So, for some people, it is (sadly) ambiguous.

At my glider port, we are told to fly at 800 AGL for gliders, but i still try to fly 1000AGL because it gives me a cushion where i can put away my dive brakes and extend/change my pattern a little in order to avoid the clueless power plane that just tried to run me over.

I fly/drive/bike/boat based on the assumption that I am invisible to everyone else and that everyone else is a malevolent NPC. This has saved my ass more than a few times.
 
Tantalum said:
btw someone painfully slow is also annoying / potentially conflict inducing. Easy to hate on the jet / Cirrus / twin but it's just as frustrating when it's a busy day (controlled or not) and someone decides to do pattern work in their cub or stinson (or [insert slow cloth toy plane]) at 45 knots.. especially so when X doesn't have a radio
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Yes, I had a [genuine] Cub tie up the pattern for half an hour, using the crossing partially turf strip, and I really had to pee. No radio, I finally landed and held short when he did. Not sure he ever saw me.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
Yes, I had a [genuine] Cub tie up the pattern for half an hour, using the crossing partially turf strip, and I really had to pee. No radio, I finally landed and held short when he did. Not sure he ever saw me.
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If he was that slow why couldn’t you just time your landing to land between his landings? Like you land after he was on the go but before he got around the pattern before his next one? What airport was this?
 
dbahn said:
Wow. Talk about ROW. That one's not the slightest bit ambiguous.
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Oh no? 91.113(g) doesn't mention categories. Regardless, in this case, a glider pilot would have been just as dead as the 152 pilot.
 
Lindberg said:
Oh no? 91.113(g) doesn't mention categories. Regardless, in this case, a glider pilot would have been just as dead as the 152 pilot.
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91.113(d) doesn’t exclude traffic patterns.

If either of the two pilots in this accident had been doing what they should have been, both of them would be a lot less dead.
 
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