KSBA departure- what are you going to do?

[TheGolfPilot]

You are leaving Santa Barbara one morning and you’re clearance is “Flout Five Departure San Marcus transition”
You take off and reach FLOUT
Are you turning left or right? Why?

 

[flyingron]

Makes no difference. I'd turn into the wind if there was crosswind (probably meaning a right turn).

 

[Tantalum]

Incidentally leaving Santa Barbara IFR always makes me uneasy... they flight you way the hell out over the water.. no thanks!

 

[N1120A]

Incidentally leaving Santa Barbara IFR always makes me uneasy... they flight you way the hell out over the water.. no thanks!

You have a chute, you big baby!

They also send VFRs out over the water too.

 

[aterpster]

You are leaving Santa Barbara one morning and you’re clearance is “Flout Five Departure San Marcus transition”
You take off and reach FLOUT
Are you turning left or right? Why?

It's a ridiculous course change so I would ask ATC what direction they want me to turn to intercept the RZS 197 radial. (017 inbound.)

 

[Grum.Man]

My first thought would be turn left as that is sort of standard traffic pattern. After looking at the map I may turn right to avoid the majority of the city.

 

[EdFred]

My first thought would be turn left as that is sort of standard traffic pattern. After looking at the map I may turn right to avoid the majority of the city.

In your plane, I'm thinking Immelmann.

 

[Tantalum]

You have a chute, you big baby!

ha! Indeed.. but that Pacific water is COLD!!!

 

[luvflyin]

You are leaving Santa Barbara one morning and you’re clearance is “Flout Five Departure San Marcus transition”
You take off and reach FLOUT
Are you turning left or right? Why?

Into the wind. Because it's easier. Just curious, did this happen? If so, was the Tower open yet or did you get it from the Center?

 

[Clip4]

Unless the wind is a factor, I would turn right because I like to turn right.

 

[TheGolfPilot]

Into the wind. Because it's easier. Just curious, did this happen? If so, was the Tower open yet or did you get it from the Center?

It didn’t happen. I was just looking at the chart and I didn’t think it really mattered and would be a fun question. I’m departing Santa Barbara in a bit but it’s VFR. I’m going to plug it in anyway and see what the gtn says

 

[luvflyin]

It didn’t happen. I was just looking at the chart and I didn’t think it really mattered and would be a fun question. I’m departing Santa Barbara in a bit but it’s VFR. I’m going to plug it in anyway and see what the gtn says

Are you going to fly the whole thing? If so, and the GTN picks a direction for you, how about turning the other way and see if it freaks out

 

[TheGolfPilot]

Are you going to fly the whole thing? If so, and the GTN picks a direction for you, how about turning the other way and see if it freaks out

No, I turned direct to destination (NW) as soon as they would let me. The GTN suggested one turns right at FLOUT. Not sure what the reasoning is.

 

[flyingron]

It has to pick one. It's an 180 turn if you're tracking the radial like you were supposed to anyhow.

 

[N1120A]

ha! Indeed.. but that Pacific water is COLD!!!

If you accept 15L for departure, they can get you over the 101 sooner. Not like there's anywhere to land till KOXR anyway

 

[chartbundle]

Incidentally leaving Santa Barbara IFR always makes me uneasy... they flight you way the hell out over the water.. no thanks!

KMRY 10R ILS is also fun(2600, 5 miles off-shore and 10 miles to the airport), luckily I was under the hood so all I really saw was the glint of the moon off the water.

 

[Groundpounder]

Depends if its the top of the hour or bottom of the hour. I always go to starboard at the top of the hour.

 

[Rgbeard]

I would just use stop, use reverse, and make a u-turn.

Simple?

 

[Htaylor]

Depends if its the top of the hour or bottom of the hour. I always go to starboard at the top of the hour.

Are you crazy, Ivan?

 

[Tantalum]

glint of the moon off the water

Oh great... so it was night time too! Funny, I prefer flying to Catalina when there's a low marine layer so I'm less conscious of the over water portion of my flight

I always go to starboard at the top of the hour

Give me a ping Vasili, one ping only please

*edit: moved to correct thread

 

[Rgbeard]

Oh great... so it was night time too! Funny, I prefer flying to Catalina when there's a low marine layer so I'm less conscious of the over water portion of my flight



*edit: moved to correct thread

Funny. Makes me feel better, too.

Yesterday morning, coming home, I flew the GPS Rwy8 into Brown.

I feel the same way.

San Diego was covered in a blanket of a marine layer in the early morning. I normally do the VOR approach because it's so easy. But it doesn't get you low enough. I ran the GPS Rwy8 approach, and it takes you out over the water. I swear, I felt the phantom engine roughness on my way to LUGJA. But the cloud blanket made me feel better.

I was #2 for the approach. Citation > Lance. They ran me 5 miles west of LUGJA before turning me towards it.

Felt much better when I hit YAPKI.

Broke out right above minimums. Was a nice day.

 

[Tantalum]

Yesterday morning, coming home, I flew the GPS Rwy8 into Brown.

Cool! Didn't know you were out here in the San Diego area too..

I actually heard some guy a few weeks ago getting vectored for the approach to RWY 6 at CRQ and they kept having him extend way out for spacing and he eventually told the guys "I'm well outside glide range, I'd like to turn back now" <- they had him go 1 more mile then flipped him around.. I was getting anxious for him!

They ran me 5 miles west of LUGJA before turning me towards it.

Damn, that's even outside that procedure turn / hold. AT least at 3K you have some (but not much) time to call out a Mayday, and you're in constant radar contact and radar communication so theoretically wouldn't be treading water for too long!

**Honestly, my friends rag on me that it's overkill, but having a small life raft on board, in my opinion, is worth the cost if you live and fly somewhere that often puts you over the water. The Pacific is cold, and if you have to wait 4, 8, hell even 20 hours for rescue (let's say you go down at 10 pm, and don't get found until the next morning) your chances of survival go from basically zero treading water to almost 100% if you are in a bright orange raft

 

[Rgbeard]

Cool! Didn't know you were out here in the San Diego area too..

I'm in Ensenada (most of the time) and in Phoenix (some of the time).

 

[Palmpilot]

KMRY 10R ILS is also fun(2600, 5 miles off-shore and 10 miles to the airport), luckily I was under the hood so all I really saw was the glint of the moon off the water.

My instrument instructor called it "the shark approach"!

 

[Palmpilot]

**Honestly, my friends rag on me that it's overkill, but having a small life raft on board, in my opinion, is worth the cost if you live and fly somewhere that often puts you over the water. The Pacific is cold, and if you have to wait 4, 8, hell even 20 hours for rescue (let's say you go down at 10 pm, and don't get found until the next morning) your chances of survival go from basically zero treading water to almost 100% if you are in a bright orange raft

And it's not one's swimming ability that's the issue, it's time of useful consciousness in that cold water!

 

[Pilawt]

Back around 1970 I flew the ILS 7 into SBA via the "Goleta - Lobster" transition (old names of the current GOLET and LOBER, respectively) in a Cessna 150E almost daily for several weeks. Being 12 nm offshore at 3500' at Lobster/LOBER was thought-provoking, to say the least.

 

[dtuuri]

Back around 1970 I flew the ILS 7 into SBA via the "Goleta - Lobster" transition (old names of the current GOLET and LOBER, respectively) in a Cessna 150E almost daily for several weeks. Being 12 nm offshore at 3500' at Lobster/LOBER was thought-provoking, to say the least.

Yeah, but 8 out of 10 POA'ers don't mind cold water because it's just 8 minutes from the beach.

 

[luvflyin]

Back around 1970 I flew the ILS 7 into SBA via the "Goleta - Lobster" transition (old names of the current GOLET and LOBER, respectively) in a Cessna 150E almost daily for several weeks. Being 12 nm offshore at 3500' at Lobster/LOBER was thought-provoking, to say the least.

Little history on that. When they were going to 5 letter names for fixes a guy I worked with tried to get them to rename Kwang to HAUPP, Goleta to SKIPP and Lobster to JUMPP. Planes could be cleared to HABUT via hop, skip and jump or to jump via hop and skip. Obviously that suggestion got sheet canned.
I’m surprised they ever got you that low out there. When I worked there the last thing we wanted was planes that low out there. We’d leave the traffic we got from Center at 6000 or above until it was time to move them over to the stack at HABUT. And we’d sometimes climb the 4000 foot traffic we got from Mugu to 5000 until then.

 

[Pilawt]

Little history on that. When they were going to 5 letter names for fixes a guy I worked with tried to get them to rename Kwang to HAUPP, Goleta to SKIPP and Lobster to JUMPP. Planes could be cleared to HABUT via hop, skip and jump or to jump via hop and skip. Obviously that suggestion got sheet canned.

Thanks -- that's interesting history. KWANG was "Channel" in the old days, but a little further west on V27 (133° from what was then SBA VORTAC, now RZS; while KWANG is 119° from RZS).

I miss the old fix names -- they were easier to remember and usually had some local significance. Some were even multiple words, like "Twin Lakes" (now TWINE) on V23 in the northwest San Fernando Valley.

I’m surprised they ever got you that low out there. When I worked there the last thing we wanted was planes that low out there. We’d leave the traffic we got from Center at 6000 or above until it was time to move them over to the stack at HABUT. And we’d sometimes climb the 4000 foot traffic we got from Mugu to 5000 until then.

I was commuting between home base at OXR to SBA where I was taking my CFI training at Apollo Airways. I don't remember ever being sent up to 5000 or 6000 on that short trip, but it might have happened. In that C-150E it was enough of an accomplishment to get up to 3500'.

One question -- when did SBA first get terminal radar? I may be wrong, but I seem to remember that those 1970 trips were in a non-radar environment.

Those were simpler times ... the 150 just had a single 90-channel Mark 12 (no glideslope), a marker beacon receiver and a stopwatch.

 

[luvflyin]

Thanks -- that's interesting history. KWANG was "Channel" in the old days, but a little further west on V27 (133° from what was then SBA VORTAC, now RZS; while KWANG is 119° from RZS).

I miss the old fix names -- they were easier to remember and usually had some local significance. Some were even multiple words, like "Twin Lakes" (now TWINE) on V23 in the northwest San Fernando Valley.

View attachment 75059


I was commuting between home base at OXR to SBA where I was taking my CFI training at Apollo Airways. I don't remember ever being sent up to 5000 or 6000 on that short trip, but it might have happened. In that C-150E it was enough of an accomplishment to get up to 3500'.

One question -- when did SBA first get terminal radar? I may be wrong, but I seem to remember that those 1970 trips were in a non-radar environment.

Those were simpler times ... the 150 just had a single 90-channel Mark 12 (no glideslope), a marker beacon receiver and a stopwatch.

View attachment 75067

1980. I was curious who gave the OP Flout in my post #9 because the last Flout departure I think ever issued was the day before Radar Approach service was commissioned. I think I did it once years later in the middle of the night when I was at the Center.
Santa Barbara was supposed to have gotten Radar a few years before that. The plans were in place and parts were all packaged up and ready to be shipped when that Lear smacked Frank Sinatra’s mom into Mt San Gorgonio. Palm Springs got the Radar. One rumor has it that some of the stuff was already on a train and on it’s way.
There was a transition from KWANG to the LMM then westbound on the Localizer to HABUT. Did you ever ask for that?

 

[Pilawt]

There was a transition from KWANG to the LMM then westbound on the Localizer to HABUT. Did you ever ask for that?

Now that you mention it, I do remember the "Middle Marker Transition". Can't remember how often I might have used it vs. Goleta-Lobster, though.

I don't have SBA approach plates from that era, but looking at a 1968 VFR chart, the radial (~105°?) from Gaviota to the old Channel intersection on V27 would pass right over the SBA MM. That must have been how the MM transition worked -- Channel via GVO R-105(?) to MM, then outbound on the localizer to Halibut and the procedure turn. An ADF would have been helpful, but I didn't have one.

Looks like V27 was realigned a few degrees further south, too (FIM R-253 then, R-250 now), so GOLET is a couple miles further offshore than was the old Goleta intersection.



But KWANG has been moved a few miles east on V27 from where Channel was. So the R-099 from GVO to KWANG passes just east of the airport, creating the VOR RWY 25 final approach course. I never understood the change before; now it makes sense. Thanks for the memory jogger.

 

[Ventucky Red]

You have a chute, you big baby!

They also send VFRs out over the water too.

If you're heading south, just ask SBA Approach for a turn to the east once you hit 1500, to the north at 2000 if departing from 15L or 15R, chances are they'll give it to you...

 

[N1120A]

If you're heading south, just ask SBA Approach for a turn to the east once you hit 1500, to the north at 2000 if departing from 15L or 15R, chances are they'll give it to you...

Yeah, but he's in a Cirrus and flies IFR even when it is inconvenient

 

[luvflyin]

Now that you mention it, I do remember the "Middle Marker Transition". Can't remember how often I might have used it vs. Goleta-Lobster, though.

I don't have SBA approach plates from that era, but looking at a 1968 VFR chart, the radial (~105°?) from Gaviota to the old Channel intersection on V27 would pass right over the SBA MM. That must have been how the MM transition worked -- Channel via GVO R-105(?) to MM, then outbound on the localizer to Halibut and the procedure turn. An ADF would have been helpful, but I didn't have one.

Looks like V27 was realigned a few degrees further south, too (FIM R-253 then, R-250 now), so GOLET is a couple miles further offshore than was the old Goleta intersection.

View attachment 75116

But KWANG has been moved a few miles east on V27 from where Channel was. So the R-099 from GVO to KWANG passes just east of the airport, creating the VOR RWY 25 final approach course. I never understood the change before; now it makes sense. Thanks for the memory jogger.

View attachment 75117

The MM was an LMM. You went from KWANG direct to the NDB then out the Localizer. GVO radials had nothing to do with it. If you didn't have an ADF, you didn't do it. Maybe the NDB wasn't there then. I got there in 78. Channel probably got moved a little and became KWANG with the VOR/DME 25 Approach. The 099 radial puts you right where you need to be to turn final for 25.

 

[N1120A]

The MM was an LMM. You went from KWANG direct to the NDB then out the Localizer. GVO radials had nothing to do with it. If you didn't have an ADF, you didn't do it. Maybe the NDB wasn't there then. I got there in 78. Channel probably got moved a little and became KWANG with the VOR/DME 25 Approach. The 099 radial puts you right where you need to be to turn final for 25.

I'm pretty sure that KWANG was named for the oil rigs, so when did those go out?

Also, I love those old charts. CMA used to beep out OAF instead, same frequency though.

 

[aterpster]

One question -- when did SBA first get terminal radar? I may be wrong, but I seem to remember that those 1970 trips were in a non-radar environment.

Those were simpler times ... the 150 just had a single 90-channel Mark 12 (no glideslope), a marker beacon receiver and a stopwatch.

Thanks for that chart! I've been looking, to no avail, with a chart that shows CHANNEL intersection. The fix represented a dramatic flying event for me in 1962. Do you happen to have the KSBA ILS chart from the same era?

That Narco you had was a big improvement over the Narco Mark II Omnigator I began with.

As to when KSBA got radar I can sort of back into it. Frank Sinatra's mother did in the Lear departing KPSP January 6, 1977. KPSP was non-radar. After the accident, perhaps within a year, they got an ASR that was intended for KSBA. So, my guess is that KSBA got radar around 1979-80.

As to fix names, MORONGO ( near Banning, named for the local Indian tribe) became MORON. That was stupid on the part of the FAA, and certainly insensitive.

 

[aterpster]

Now that you mention it, I do remember the "Middle Marker Transition". Can't remember how often I might have used it vs. Goleta-Lobster, though.

It almost killed me so I remember it like it was yesterday. After CHANNEL it was an ADF bearing to the LMM, then outbound on the localizer at 3,000 for the procedure turn (then inbound at 1,500 to intercept the GS). I was giving IFR dual to a friend who had a new PA-24-250. (based at KEMT). He was ready for IFR cross-country so we filed IFR from KEMT to KSBA out to CHANNEL, then the ILS approach. It was a rainy, but not stormy night. We had both been working all day, so neither of us were on our A Game. We descended to 3,000 after CHANNEL. The localizer swing is VERY rapid at the LMM. We both missed it. It dawn on me in a few minutes. For all I knew we were already on the Santa Ynez side through a saddle. So, I took over and made a max performance climbing 360 to 6,000. I knew the area well, so knew that 6,000 would be safe. We then returned to the LMM, flew the procedure until inbound and below the clouds at around 2,000. We decided to call it a day, cancelled and flew VFR back to El Monte. As soon as we got to 6,000 and squared alway flying back to the LMM, I advised approach control "that we had a little problem but all was okay now." He responded, "We sort of figured that." No doubt they knew exactly what happened.

 

[Ventucky Red]

But KWANG has been moved a few miles east on V27 from where Channel was. So the R-099 from GVO to KWANG passes just east of the airport, creating the VOR RWY 25 final approach course. I never understood the change before; now it makes sense. Thanks for the memory jogger.

View attachment 75117

Wow.... little history of my back yard... thanks some cool stuff...

 

[luvflyin]

It almost killed me so I remember it like it was yesterday. After CHANNEL it was an ADF bearing to the LMM, then outbound on the localizer at 3,000 for the procedure turn (then inbound at 1,500 to intercept the GS). I was giving IFR dual to a friend who had a new PA-24-250. (based at KEMT). He was ready for IFR cross-country so we filed IFR from KEMT to KSBA out to CHANNEL, then the ILS approach. It was a rainy, but not stormy night. We had both been working all day, so neither of us were on our A Game. We descended to 3,000 after CHANNEL. The localizer swing is VERY rapid at the LMM. We both missed it. It dawn on me in a few minutes. For all I knew we were already on the Santa Ynez side through a saddle. So, I took over and made a max performance climbing 360 to 6,000. I knew the area well, so knew that 6,000 would be safe. We then returned to the LMM, flew the procedure until inbound and below the clouds at around 2,000. We decided to call it a day, cancelled and flew VFR back to El Monte. As soon as we got to 6,000 and squared alway flying back to the LMM, I advised approach control "that we had a little problem but all was okay now." He responded, "We sort of figured that." No doubt they knew exactly what happened.

Glad you caught it soon enough, responded wisely and are around to tell the story. Yeah, the CDI needle would swing peg to peg in the blink of an eye there. Did you first notice what had happened by where the CDI needle was or by the reversal of the ADF needle?

 

[Pilawt]

Yeah, I didn't have an ADF in those days, so if the MM transition required one then I had to go Goleta - Lobster.

I have an ADF now, if that helps ...