Kobe Bryant dead in helicopter crash

mryan75 said:
90


High speed impact.
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Looks like a fairly steep hillside too.
 
Usually SVFR is used to punch through a layer or just get out of an imc area. Not bob and weave through a mountain pass.


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Peter Anderson said:
Usually SVFR is used to punch through a layer or just get out of an imc area. Not bob and weave through a mountain pass.


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Not correct. SVFR is only available in controlled airspace in the vicinity of an airport where the airspace extends down to surface.

The helicopter was supposed to remain VFR after the SVFR transition, and the VNY tower controller asked him to confirm that he was VFR at the time he was exiting VNY Class D at the hand off to Socal.

KVNY elevation is 802 feet and was showing 1100 ft ceiling. The pilot was reporting altitudes of 1400 ASL and then 1500 ASL, VFR to the tower controller. I'm not having any difficulty imagining he was hugging the cloud bases.
 
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In an airplane, VFR flight into IMC by a non-instrument rated pilot can end up in an ever tightening spiral dive. What happens in a helicopter? Could that explain the high speed?
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
In an airplane, VFR flight into IMC by a non-instrument rated pilot can end up in an ever tightening spiral dive. What happens in a helicopter? Could that explain the high speed?
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The speed profile was consistent the entire flight according to their track log, outside of the time they were holding for their SVFR clearance.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
In an airplane, VFR flight into IMC by a non-instrument rated pilot can end up in an ever tightening spiral dive. What happens in a helicopter? Could that explain the high speed?
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VFR flight into IMC can end up in any number of various conditions. It's not a safe bet to assume that if you inadvertently encounter IMC, you're going to end up in an ever tightening spiral dive. This assumption will likely cause you to make incorrect corrections, that may possibly worsen your condition. If you do end up in IMC, get on the gages and fly the aircraft.

As for airplane vs helicopter, a helicopter can do all the same things in inadvertent IMC that an airplane can, plus a couple that an airplane can't.

As for the high speed, it's not unusual for that aircraft. It's only unusual for those conditions. However, seeing as how it's pretty consistent with his speed throughout most of his flight, it's my opinion that this is just further evidence of CFIT.
 
Lando said:
Since it’s a helicopter, what would keep the pilot from simply slowing down to a hover and turning around if the ceiling was lowering significantly in front of him?
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The-Flying-Lawyer said:
Fixed-wing ignoramus here - if a helicopter is in a canyon, runs into a problem, and wants to turn around, why doesn't it just slow to a hover, spin 180 degrees, and leave the way it came? I'd envy that choice.
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Curious to see answers for this common-sense question. Is there something about the S76 that prevents such a maneuver?
 
SToL said:
VFR flight into IMC can end up in any number of various conditions. It's not a safe bet to assume that if you inadvertently encounter IMC, you're going to end up in an ever tightening spiral dive. This assumption will likely cause you to make incorrect corrections, that may possibly worsen your condition. If you do end up in IMC, get on the gages and fly the aircraft.

As for airplane vs helicopter, a helicopter can do all the same things in inadvertent IMC that an airplane can, plus a couple that an airplane can't.

As for the high speed, it's not unusual for that aircraft. It's only unusual for those conditions. However, seeing as how it's pretty consistent with his speed throughout most of his flight, it's my opinion that this is just further evidence of CFIT.
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That type of terrain changes with that speed it would only take one wrong turn to make for a bad day.
 
The-Flying-Lawyer said:
Fixed-wing ignoramus here - if a helicopter is in a canyon, runs into a problem, and wants to turn around, why doesn't it just slow to a hover, spin 180 degrees, and leave the way it came? I'd envy that choice.
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This is a very viable option, if the aircraft has the power to perform it. Power to perform is, just like an airplane. It's going to depend on fuel load, pax load, baggage, temp, alt, humidity and winds.

In this particular case, the aircraft was way above, speed wise, what it should have been for the conditions.

When the visibility goes down, so should your airspeed.
 
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This was a chartered flight, pilot was absolutely IFR rated.

This was not Kobe’s personal helicopter.
 
mryan75 said:
I was thinking, it’s possible that the speed was the result of the boss needing to be somewhere at a certain time.

I hate to speculate negatively about Kobe, but generally speaking it’s a possibility.
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Entirely possible, especially given the time loss of ~15 minutes while circling prior to receiving permission to enter Burbank Class C.
 
mryan75 said:
I was thinking, it’s possible that the speed was the result of the boss needing to be somewhere at a certain time.

I hate to speculate negatively about Kobe, but generally speaking it’s a possibility.
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I'd like to believe that any Pilot In Command has the cojones to tell any pax that they're not going to do something they know is unsafe, but alas, I know not everyone can be a dick like me.
 
That looks like its in the grand canyon.
 
I wondered as I’m not familiar with the terrain and such in the area to know...
 
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Bell206 said:
But if no IFR approach to your destination....

Money has never been an indicator of common sense. Why not have 2 pilots on board? Unfortunately plenty of examples of where money doesn't always work out... like the PC-12 in Wisconsin.
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Pick another destination?

Get vectors to MVA?

Etc
 
SToL said:
It's always possible, but insurance would be the big stickler... However, it's my guess (and this is only a guess) that they didn't really have a destination, as much as a journey. I think they wanted to remain low because they wanted to see things, specifically the Mamba camp.

To file IFR would have meant to climb and be on a flight plan. This would have prohibited remaining low to see whatever it was they wanted to see.

Again, this is just my guess.
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This... but also.... not this....

If the pilot was IFR Current (which I can't imagine he wasn't), the SECOND he thought the ceilings were coming down, didn't have a place to land, started to enter official IMC, he could have simply informed ATC he needed an immediate pop up IFR to the nearest airport, which it sounds like there were 2 with approaches in the vicinity. The pilot could have held position, hovered, whatever, until ATC cleared him a route and gave him a safe altitude to the nearest approach.

What really stinks, is that if in fact this is all deemed to be the case..... there's going to be one helluva lawsuit on somebodies hands. 9 people is such a shame. Very sorry to hear about this one today.
 
USAF-LT-G said:
This... but also.... not this....

If the pilot was IFR Current (which I can't imagine he wasn't), the SECOND he thought the ceilings were coming down, didn't have a place to land, started to enter official IMC, he could have simply informed ATC he needed an immediate pop up IFR to the nearest airport, which it sounds like there were 2 with approaches in the vicinity. The pilot could have held position, hovered, whatever, until ATC cleared him a route and gave him a safe altitude to the nearest approach.
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You are 100% correct, but also have taken this out of context. In my first post on this topic, I already said what the pilot should do.

In this post I'm simply offering my opinion as to why he might have been flying in this low vis, as opposed to already being on an IFR plan. I never offered as to what he should do once IIMC.
 
SToL said:
You are 100% correct, but also have taken this out of context. In my first post on this topic, I already said what the pilot should do.

In this post I'm simply offering my opinion as to why he might have been flying in this low vis, as opposed to already being on an IFR plan. I never offered as to what he should do once IIMC.
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Understood... all in all it's just a real tragedy.
 
Beginning to sound like get-there-its and VFR into IMC. Kobe freaking Bryant in the back, we’re late to Mamba camp, HIS camp, due to a long hold for a BUR go around and approaches. Throttle up, scud run through the mountains and lose sight of the highway. Certainly the pilot would be IFR rated, but current and proficient is another story. But even if he was like Pete Maverick Mitchell with 1000 night traps, maybe he entered the soup so quickly he panicked and pulled the 180 climb out of pure panic/reaction.
 
SToL said:
I'd like to believe that any Pilot In Command has the cojones to tell any pax that they're not going to do something they know is unsafe, but alas, I know not everyone can be a dick like me.
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I have read about three or four VIP helicopter crashes in the UK on PPruNe that were 20 or 30 page affairs and discussed the pressure on pilots to get the boss to his destination. These were mostly twin engine, IFR/SAS equipped, recent manufacture Agustas and Leonardos.

The weather in the UK is routinely a bit dodgy, the days are short during the winter, and having a wealthy Type A with an appointment in the back can impart the sort of influence we all know is wrong yet can cause faulty decision making in the most capable of pilots.

But after all, the boss purchased a $15 million Agusta 139 because helicopters can fly anywhere, anytime...right? He can find a pilot that will say yes every time if he sifts through a few that won't.
 
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3393RP said:
I have read about three or four VIP helicopter crashes in the UK on PPrune that were 20 or 30 page affairs and discussed the pressure on pilots to get the boss to his destination. These were mostly twin engine, IFR/SAS equipped, recent manufacture Agustas and Leonardos.

The weather in the UK is routinely a bit dodgy, the days are short during the winter, and having a wealthy Type A with an appointment in the back can impart the sort of influence we all know is wrong yet can cause faulty decision making in the most capable of pilots.

But after all, the boss purchased a $15 million Agusta 139 because helicopters can fly anywhere, anytime...right? He can find a pilot that will say yes every time if he sifts through a few that won't.
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I fly twins too, and my best/worst client is worth a little over 300 Mil. We have numerous 'discussions' about why I won't do something he wants. Yet he continues to ask for me every time he want's to go somewhere.

Maybe it's because I'm older and 'been there done that'... but I don't allow anyone to influence my decision to fly or not, when I don't wont. That's a decision I make on my own. Other than that, I will do everything in my power to make their flight as custom tailored to what they want as I can.
 
Significant items in this story. Just pasted some excerpts.

Helicopter carrying Kobe Bryant made climbing turn before rapid dive
The helicopter carrying Kobe Bryant and eight other passengers that crashed into a hillside in Southern California on Sunday was in a climbing left turn about 2,400 feet high before it dove to the ground, a person familiar with preliminary investigative information about the fatal crash told ESPN.

Further, the source told ESPN, who spoke only on the condition of anonymity, the pilot had, only moments before, contacted air traffic controllers to say that he had begun a climb to "go above the layer" of clouds present.

Audio reviewed by ESPN indicates that a few minutes prior to the crash, an air traffic controller told the pilot he was "still too low level for flight following," meaning the aircraft was below the level at which it could be picked up by radar due to the area's hilly terrain. That audio came from recordings posted on LiveATC.net, which has partial audio of the communication between the pilot and air traffic controllers.

Additional recordings between the pilot and air traffic controllers posted on the site indicate that the pilot was getting guidance from controllers as he navigated what was reported to be a dense morning fog.

After holding up the helicopter for other aircraft, they cleared the Sikorsky S-76 to proceed north along Interstate 5 through Burbank before turning west to follow U.S Route 101, the Ventura Highway.

Shortly after 9:40 a.m., the helicopter turned again, toward the southeast, and climbed to more than 2,000 feet above sea level. It then descended and crashed into the hillside at about 1,400 feet, according to data from Flightradar24.

When it struck the ground, the helicopter was flying at about 160 knots (184 mph) and descending at a rate of more than 4,000 feet per minute (45 mph), the Flightradar24 data showed.

Los Angeles Police Department spokesman Josh Rubenstein said that the department's Air Support division grounded its helicopters Sunday morning due to foggy conditions and didn't fly until later in the afternoon.

"The weather situation did not meet our minimum standards for flying," Rubenstein said.

The fog "was enough that we were not flying." LAPD's flight minimums are 2 miles of visibility and an 800-foot cloud ceiling, he said. The department typically flies two helicopters when conditions allow -- one in the San Fernando Valley and one in the L.A. basin, he said.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id...ing-kobe-bryant-made-climbing-turn-rapid-dive
 
GRG55 said:
I've been flying VFR in serious mountainous terrain right from when I got my PPL in 1974. I cannot ever remember ATC saying anything of the sort. If one is VFR and requests flight following ATC will tell you if you are too low for radar coverage, or will inform you in advance if they expect to lose coverage, at which point flight following will terminate. Neither is necessarily in any way an unsafe situation when VFR. The former is exactly what ATC did in this instance.
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Thanks for this! It makes sense that ATC could not always warn every plane around mountains that they are below the safe altitude for that sector because I guess it happens a lot out there.
 
jspilot said:
Thanks for this! It makes sense that ATC could not always warn every plane around mountains that they are below the safe altitude for that sector because I guess it happens a lot out there.
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While delivering my plane and crossing mountains at night we got a altitude/terrain warning from ATC.
 
Between the ADSB data and the debris field it looks like this was Uncontrolled Flight Into Terrain. Not that it makes a difference.
 
I don't think I usually speculate on these things and I haven't read the news stories but based on what is described in the above comments, this sounds more like disorientation than CFIT.

CFIT would be flying along and accidentally hit a mountain in the fog right?
A rapid climb followed by a dive into the ground if I am understanding, sounds like the pilot may have gotten out of sorts mentally.

Does a helicopter have a button you can push like on a toy drone (and I am not even kidding) where you hit it and it will stop and hover in place?
Seems like that should be possible and would give the pilot a moment to shake the cobwebs out.
 
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