KJGG Plane Crash

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Murrgh

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Murrgh
http://www.wavy.com/dpp/news/local_news/fatal-cessna-plane-crash-in-jcc

Happened right before I drove by. No survivors. The Cessna crashed into a retirement home community, right next to an independent living home. Not sure how they will remove the plane, they can't even open it to get to the pilot.

Edit: Turns out it was a Cessna 210...

"The FAA tells WUSA9 that the plane that crashed was a Cessna 210. As the plane was lined up for final approach, for unexplained reasons the pilot flew across the airport and landed across a field on the other side of the airport."


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Sad stuff. I always get nervous flying out of JGG. There are absolutely no options for emergency or forced landings.
 
Over 6 hours later and the rescue team is still there, doesn't look like they've been able to open the plane yet either.


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Murrgh said:
Over 6 hours later and the rescue team is still there, doesn't look like they've been able to open the plane yet either.


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Click to expand...

Have you gone to check it out? The plane is registered to the son of one of my dad's friends.
 
david0tey said:
Sad stuff. I always get nervous flying out of JGG. There are absolutely no options for emergency or forced landings.
Click to expand...

I haven't flown there in a few years, but there is a swamp on one end and a hill on the other end, with basically nowhere else to go. I really have to wonder what happened in this crash. How sad.
 
Very sad indeed. Pilot seems to have had a lot of experience and served our country for quite a while.
 
bluee said:
I haven't flown there in a few years, but there is a swamp on one end and a hill on the other end, with basically nowhere else to go. I really have to wonder what happened in this crash. How sad.
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Yep. It always makes me nervous that from about 100-500 feet on takeoff, there are literally no options for putting it down safely.
 
I personally haven't been able to check it out. The crash happened inside the Williamsburg Landing, which a gate is at the entrance. Since there are State Police, WJCC Police, and Firetrucks/Ambulances, I didn't think it would be a good idea to attempt to go check it out. Turns out it was a Colonel, female passenger, and a dog that went down. He had over 4500 hours and was on final when a gust of wind blew him off.

BTW, link was updated in Original Post
 
My dad was speculating that he may have been doing an overhead break and gone into a stall/spin.
 
Murrgh said:
I personally haven't been able to check it out. The crash happened inside the Williamsburg Landing, which a gate is at the entrance. Since there are State Police, WJCC Police, and Firetrucks/Ambulances, I didn't think it would be a good idea to attempt to go check it out. Turns out it was a Colonel, female passenger, and a dog that went down. He had over 4500 hours and was on final when a gust of wind blew him off.

BTW, link was updated in Original Post
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That must have been on hell of a gust of wind.
 
I was also thinking that he stalled into a spin, especially since he landed nose first.

And the winds were pretty bad yesterday, unfortunately I didn't take a screen shot of the Foreflight winds, but this was from yesterday:
azutypub.jpg


That was right issued right around the time of the crash

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Here are the METARS around the time of the crash:

KJGG 192155Z AUTO 19018G24KT 10SM SCT041 27/19 A2974 RMK AO1
KJGG 192135Z AUTO 19016G28KT 10SM SCT043 BKN050 27/19 A2975 RMK AO1
KJGG 192115Z AUTO 19018G25KT 10SM SCT044 BKN050 28/19 A2975 RMK AO1
KJGG 192055Z AUTO 18014G28KT 10SM CLR 28/19 A2975 RMK AO1
KJGG 192035Z AUTO 19020G26KT 10SM SCT060 28/18 A2975 RMK AO1
KJGG 192015Z AUTO 19014G18KT 160V220 10SM SCT060 29/18 A2976 RMK AO1
KJGG 191955Z AUTO 20014G19KT 10SM SCT050 SCT065 29/18 A2977 RMK AO1

@2100Z / 1700 Local 180 14G28. That's a pretty good crosswind for Rwy 13.
 
wsuffa said:
Here are the METARS around the time of the crash:

KJGG 192155Z AUTO 19018G24KT 10SM SCT041 27/19 A2974 RMK AO1
KJGG 192135Z AUTO 19016G28KT 10SM SCT043 BKN050 27/19 A2975 RMK AO1
KJGG 192115Z AUTO 19018G25KT 10SM SCT044 BKN050 28/19 A2975 RMK AO1
KJGG 192055Z AUTO 18014G28KT 10SM CLR 28/19 A2975 RMK AO1
KJGG 192035Z AUTO 19020G26KT 10SM SCT060 28/18 A2975 RMK AO1
KJGG 192015Z AUTO 19014G18KT 160V220 10SM SCT060 29/18 A2976 RMK AO1
KJGG 191955Z AUTO 20014G19KT 10SM SCT050 SCT065 29/18 A2977 RMK AO1

@2100Z / 1700 Local 180 14G28. That's a pretty good crosswind for Rwy 13.
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Still hard for me to believe it was enough to blow a retired B-1/B-52 pilot that far off course.
 
david0tey said:
Yep. It always makes me nervous that from about 100-500 feet on takeoff, there are literally no options for putting it down safely.
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Hi David,

Scares the poop out of me too.

My home base has tall trees all around - no options. Dang, but Florida is just flat, full of trees and water .... !! So I just do "IFR".

Regards
John
 
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When I first read this and even when I read this it scares the you know what out of me. Here is an obviously well trained, and seemingly very experienced both military and GA pilot(as it seems from his Aspen post) who bought the farm and there is no good explanation yet. I see the thunderstorm angle and hope that is the link in the chain, because those winds are similar to conditions I have landed and taken off on a number of occasions, in fact, just today. If there was not a thunderstorm link, I would wonder if an engine out at low altitude followed by a spin would be the explanation. In any case, it still is scary, but then again, I am so addicted to this I will be flying tomorrow.
 
You know, I think the weather has become less predictable. Sure, they can predict bad conditions, but it can suddenly get worse than predicted without warning.

Last week at Sullivan, MO airport KUUV, the AWOS registered 101 mph. Some damage to hangars. I'm sure no one was flying because otherwise the conditions were too bad. But no one predicted 101 mph, and it wasn't a tornado. Instead, they think it was an exceptionally strong and large microburst.
 
wsuffa said:
Here are the METARS around the time of the crash:

KJGG 192155Z AUTO 19018G24KT 10SM SCT041 27/19 A2974 RMK AO1
KJGG 192135Z AUTO 19016G28KT 10SM SCT043 BKN050 27/19 A2975 RMK AO1
KJGG 192115Z AUTO 19018G25KT 10SM SCT044 BKN050 28/19 A2975 RMK AO1
KJGG 192055Z AUTO 18014G28KT 10SM CLR 28/19 A2975 RMK AO1
KJGG 192035Z AUTO 19020G26KT 10SM SCT060 28/18 A2975 RMK AO1
KJGG 192015Z AUTO 19014G18KT 160V220 10SM SCT060 29/18 A2976 RMK AO1
KJGG 191955Z AUTO 20014G19KT 10SM SCT050 SCT065 29/18 A2977 RMK AO1

@2100Z / 1700 Local 180 14G28. That's a pretty good crosswind for Rwy 13.
Click to expand...

Not that bat at all actually.
 
tinerj said:
You know, I think the weather has become less predictable. Sure, they can predict bad conditions, but it can suddenly get worse than predicted without warning.

Last week at Sullivan, MO airport KUUV, the AWOS registered 101 mph. Some damage to hangars. I'm sure no one was flying because otherwise the conditions were too bad. But no one predicted 101 mph, and it wasn't a tornado. Instead, they think it was an exceptionally strong and large microburst.
Click to expand...
:rolleyes:
Weather predictions are more accurate than they've ever been, especially at large scales. Frontal motion, hurricane tracking...over the last few decades we've seen fantastic improvements.

Micropredictions of specific weather at a specific spot at a specific time has always been more difficult, but even that is better today than it ever has been.

But neither macro nor micro predictions are anywhere near 100% perfect, and probably never will be.
 
I drove by KJGG today to see what was going on. You can see the crash location through the trees while driving towards the airport. We actually went in the retirement community (my grandparents live there) to get a better look and saw that the plane was gone. We then saw that they had taken the plane to an open hanger at JGG and were inspecting it there. When we drove by, someone appeared to be looking at the engine. I figured it was the FAA and proceeded to get as far away from the airport as possible. I guess we'll know soon enough what the cause was.
 
I was discussing this with a freind today who is Air Force. This was a three star general, not a colonel. Also, looks like it could be fuel exhaustion and trying to stretch it out on final. With those winds that could easily turn into a stall spin scenario.
 
Todd Copeland said:
I was discussing this with a freind today who is Air Force. This was a three star general, not a colonel. Also, looks like it could be fuel exhaustion and trying to stretch it out on final. With those winds that could easily turn into a stall spin scenario.
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I stand corrected. Must have misread the article.
 
Todd Copeland said:
I was discussing this with a freind today who is Air Force. This was a three star general, not a colonel. Also, looks like it could be fuel exhaustion and trying to stretch it out on final. With those winds that could easily turn into a stall spin scenario.
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He was a Major General which is two stars, but who is counting. I do not know why but for some reason I thought he crashed on take off and not landing, but now do not know what led me to believe that.
 
Todd Copeland said:
I was discussing this with a freind today who is Air Force. This was a three star general, not a colonel. Also, looks like it could be fuel exhaustion and trying to stretch it out on final. With those winds that could easily turn into a stall spin scenario.
Click to expand...

Just talked to someone "in the know". Apparently, the wind was strong out of the south and he overshot the right base leg on 13. I guess this led to lower airspeed/higher groundspeed and he attempted to steepen up the turn and stalled.:(

...this is coming from someone who spoke with the guy who was working the unicom
 
Jim_R said:
Weather predictions are more accurate than they've ever been, especially at large scales. Frontal motion, hurricane tracking...over the last few decades we've seen fantastic improvements.

Micropredictions of specific weather at a specific spot at a specific time has always been more difficult, but even that is better today than it ever has been.

But neither macro nor micro predictions are anywhere near 100% perfect, and probably never will be.
Click to expand...

In the last 50 years, weather forecasting has taken great strides. Several models have been made that combine both historic data and the physics of fluids. Most models tend to have a leveling effect, valleys are slightly filled in and hills are slightly reduced. Extremes are not predicted to be as severe as they turn out to be. But, the discrepancy until recently has been slight.

In the last two years, the models are falling short of predicting the extremes and failing to catch how rapidly conditions can change. Actually, its the weather that is changing, but the models are not being modified with the new data. They are given more weight to historic data.
 
This hits close to home. I've talked to him on a few occasions...he tied down his 210 across the taxi lane from my hangar at VKX. I was considering flying Friday afternoon from VKX to Richmond but ended up driving instead due to the impending weather. I'll be interested in seeing what happened. My thoughts are with their family and friends...
 
There was a tornado watch(#131) a short distance to the West. Be careful when fronts are approaching.
 
david0tey said:
Just talked to someone "in the know". Apparently, the wind was strong out of the south and he overshot the right base leg on 13. I guess this led to lower airspeed/higher groundspeed and he attempted to steepen up the turn and stalled.:(

...this is coming from someone who spoke with the guy who was working the unicom
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The old base to final spin...:mad2::(..

State Police have confirmed the pilot, 54-year-old Joseph D. Brown, IV and a female passenger were killed, as was a family pet.
Brown had clocked more than 4,300 flight hours in his background with the Air Force, mainly in B-1 and B-52. He also served combat time in operations Enduring and Iraqi Freedom.
His official title was Major General of the Eisenhower School at Fort McNair, a premier Department of Defense national security training school in Washington, D.C.


You would expect this out of a low time or careless, untrained pilot....

Be careful out there kids... :yes:
 
4300 hrs. Wonder how many and how often in the C210?
 
david0tey said:
Just talked to someone "in the know". Apparently, the wind was strong out of the south and he overshot the right base leg on 13. I guess this led to lower airspeed/higher groundspeed and he attempted to steepen up the turn and stalled.:(

...this is coming from someone who spoke with the guy who was working the unicom
Click to expand...

Bill or Charley? Just curious.
 
From this morning's Situation Report:

FP Situation Report said:
Air Force Maj. Gen. Joe Brown and his wife were killed. Brown, a bomber pilot with more than 4,300 flight hours under his belt and a recipient of a Distinguished Flying Cross, was killed along with his wife, Sue, as he attempted to land a single-engine Cessna 210 near Williamsburg, Va. on Friday. Brown, who was apparently visiting his father in the area, was the commandant of the Dwight D. Eisenhower School for National Security and Resource Strategy at National Defense University in Washington - the former Industrial College of the Armed Forces, renamed last year. Brown was said to be well regarded on the NDU campus. NDU employees received an e-mail from Maj. Gen. Gregg Martin, president of the school, on Saturday, but the cause of the crash is as yet unclear. From Martin's e-mail, obtained by Situation Report, in which Martin said the NDU family had lost "two of the brightest lights in the constellation that is the National Defense University:" "I have no words to capture my emotions right now. General Joe Brown was simply the epitome of Air Force style, professionalism and grace. There was no better leader here at NDU, and no better friend on our team. I can't get his ready smile and easy laugh out of my mind just now. Joe and Sue were deeply loved, admired and respected by all."

Brown's career was marked by a historical flight over Iraq in March 2003 for which he received the Flying Cross. The WaPo: "On March 22, 2003, Brown, then a colonel, was tasked with flying his B-1 over classified locations in Iraq to destroy six Global Positioning System jamming towers, according to the citation. Coursing through 'lethal airspace,' Brown's 'extraordinary airmanship and bravery,' allowed him to outmaneuver three surface-to-air missiles and dense antiaircraft fire to successfully bomb enemy towers. The strikes were crucial to the early stages of the war because they allowed other bombers to find their targets with greater accuracy. During the mission, Brown became the first B-1 pilot to penetrate Baghdad's airspace."

Also killed in the crash: The Browns' dog, Jackson.
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From the description, he sounds like one heck of an airman.

May they rest in peace.

-Andrew
 
The NTSB preliminary report is up, which recounts what was mentioned earlier in the thread...

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20130419X75623&key=1

It was sad walking by his tie down today, the ropes neatly coiled in preparation for a return tie-down, and a sobering reminder that none of us are immune from failure of man or machine. Stay safe out there.
 
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